raiding guilds and bot bans

General Discussion
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As an officer of a raiding guild, There are few things that stress me out more than failing to show without notice. I mean sure, sometimes there are emergencies.. and I don't fault them for prioritizing. Things happen. But that is not what I am here to discuss today.

For starters, let me be clear: I am not against bans. Especially bot bans. I am glad blizzard has a hard stance and follows through with disciplinary actions for those who use them. I have no pity for players who use those bots/cheats especially when those people are veteran players who KNOW that it's wrong. Understand I am not making this post on the assumption that my guild members are/were botting, just a general suggestion for something.

While I am ok with bans, one thing that I am concerned about is how it affects raid nights. What do I mean? I was in a guild that had the situation of multiple raiders having used bots. They were given hefty bans (which again, I am ok with), but only one of them informed us that they were banned... Or even that they wouldn't log on for a sometime.

this caused us to miss several consecutive raid nights due to lack of attendance and no practical reason as to why people weren't showing up. In the end, the guild died due to it. It was not until later that we found out how many people were banned.

I bring this up because of one reason: We, the leadership of the guild, did not have the knowledge available to act in the best interest of the raid team. If there had been a system in place that could let guild leadership know when a guild member is banned (not the why, just the what).. Then we would have had the ability to adapt before it affected guild morale. Blizzard, you may or may not care about player/guild morale in a microcosm.. But those of us leading guilds and raids have to work with and around it everyday. It can mean the difference between a kill or a wipe, raiding or not raiding, surviving or disbanding. And it is against this backdrop that I would like to make a suggestion, for you to consider.

Suggested Solution:

After spending much time after the bans last year and the recent bans within the last week or two.. I would like to suggest that there be a system for blizzard to tag players in a guild whom may be under ban. Nothing that everyone can see.. Maybe not even officers. Something that only the guild-master can see that lets him/her know. Something as simple as "this player is unavailable until (insert date)

This is important for 2 reasons:

1: It gives leadership notice that some players will be inactive for a prolonged period of time. For raiding guilds especially, it allows GM's to focus resources on replenishing the raid roster, and have a suitable set of information in the event that attendance is the reason raids don't happen. In these turbulent times where raid team turnover can all ready be a massive hurdle to overcome in progression, having a tool that allows us to make responsible decisions for our guilds/raid teams would be a MASSIVE boon overall.

2: This will have a direct impact on player/guild morale. While true, it might seem demoralizing to know that your guildmates were botting.. Knowing the consequences. More importantly though, it dispels the notion that those players who are not able to be active are offline simply due to lack of interest, or any of a thousand reasons players can make up.

I know that this is one of those "easier said than done" moments. I also understand that you might be quick to go into "privacy matters" mode. You should also understand that when raid teams/guilds crumbles.. it has a direct impact on your bottom line. Players who find themselves suddenly without a raid/guild may be more likely to unsubscribe, for example. Happy players are paying players.

Please do not let the actions of bad-hearted players have such a detrimental impact on the good-hearted players.
100% agree, I have had similar attendance issues and it leaves people speculating if these folks were banned and just dont want to let us know. It would but VERY much beneficial to have a system in place that lets the GM at least know that those players cannot log in without any reason given.
I’d stop guilding cheaters.
For what it's worth, it could also have a beneficial impact on the game itself.

Imagine being a player, and thinking about using a bot. Then they think about the idea of being banned.. which may not immediately register.. But then they think "My GM will know why I am not logging on (not the reason, just that the players is banned) and might lose my raid spot" Might have more of an impact.

Just some food for thought.
I have to agree with this, it would so much easier to tell if someone isn't logging in because they don't want to or they are banned, and a lot of people don't like to tell the people they were raiding with that they were cheating. Much easier to just disappear.
Its a shame that so many "normal" players were cheaters

10/14/2017 04:04 PMPosted by Rockadee
I’d stop guilding cheaters.


How do you tell whos cheating and whos not?
Or, you know, have a larger roster with multiple people on the bench waiting to come in. It's a matter of failed recruitment/roster management, not a fault of Blizzard's.
Hmm, I don't know how Blizzard would feel about public "shaming" botters. Just because you are a GM does not mean you have the right to know if one of your players has been banned or not. So I don't see them doing something exactly like this. They maybe could set of a system for "frozen" accounts where people could freeze their accounts if they are leaving the game for awhile for "safety". Or peoples account would show up as frozen if they were found breaking the ToS.

That way Blizzard could avoid any fallout from people not happy that their bans were made "public".
Got cheaters in your guild? Kick them. Simple. No cheater, no problem.
Blizzard's position on account actions is that it's a matter between the account holder and Blizzard. It's very, very unlikely they'll shift on that position.

They're not going to let you know your main tank was banned for botting. If you've got a guild website, make it very clear that if anyone plans on doing something stupid enough to get banned and plans on returning afterward, they let the guild know within 24 hours. Otherwise they're not coming back. Ever.
Or, you know, how a larger roster with multiple people on the bench waiting to come in. It's a matter of failed recruitment/roster management, not a fault of Blizzard's.


Right, cause recruiting is so easy? Players are ALWAYS just lining up and waiting to join each and every guild? I mean, it's not like recruiting is a full-time effort (spoiler alert: it is).
Do you have a guild website? Facebook? Voice Channel?

It's not like methods for informing you outside of the game don't exist. At the very least you've probably got a discord/vent/ts3/etc.

If your guildies aren't telling you, it's because they're too embarrassed.

~edit wow that was a massive auto-correct typo.
Botting in raids, lmao.
10/14/2017 04:20 PMPosted by Caecivenator
Or, you know, how a larger roster with multiple people on the bench waiting to come in. It's a matter of failed recruitment/roster management, not a fault of Blizzard's.


Right, cause recruiting is so easy? Players are ALWAYS just lining up and waiting to join each and every guild? I mean, it's not like recruiting is a full-time effort (spoiler alert: it is).

It absolutely is a full-time effort, which means whoever is doing it for your guild is slacking. You run Heroic. You need no more than 10 people. You can have up to 30 people. Make people want to join your guild and they will.
10/14/2017 03:57 PMPosted by Caecivenator
They were given hefty bans (which again, I am ok with), but only one of them informed us that they were banned... Or even that they wouldn't log on for a sometime.


Sounds like a player issue, not a game issue.
10/14/2017 04:23 PMPosted by Veranolth
Botting in raids, lmao.


Believe it or not, it's not that uncommon for people to feel like they have to cheat to compete.

Rotation bots are a thing.
Burn all , thanks Blizzard ,
10/14/2017 04:19 PMPosted by Crepe
Blizzard's position on account actions is that it's a matter between the account holder and Blizzard. It's very, very unlikely they'll shift on that position.

They're not going to let you know your main tank was banned for botting. If you've got a guild website, make it very clear that if anyone plans on doing something stupid enough to get banned and plans on returning afterward, they let the guild know within 24 hours. Otherwise they're not coming back. Ever.


But that is essence of the problem. In many cases, no one is letting their guild/raid team know that they will be offline for sometime.. Let alone WHY.

This is something, depending on the number of bans, that can effect a LARGE number of guilds, and have ripple effects on the non-cheating players.

Again though, They don't need to know WHY. Just the WHAT. And yes, I do think it is appropriate that maybe blizzard should be ok with some public shaming.

I can be honest and say that I was running a company.. any company.. And an employee went to jail, I would want to know so that I can make an educated determination as to whether I want that employee to remain.

Not to mention, it's not like we are talking about 24/48/72 hour bans.. that is small potatoes overall. But the last wave that went out is for upwards of 6mo plus. That is a long time to be out of the game and if we don't know why.. especially when there are no previous indicators, it can take up to 2wks to realize that the person won't be back for a while, and in that time they then have to panic and recruit like crazy. This then has potential to recruit the wrong kind of player (every guild has had this, I can near guarantee it) which has further consequences.

Heck, maybe a bit of public shaming will deter people from using the programs in the first place? That doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.
10/14/2017 04:04 PMPosted by Rockadee
I’d stop guilding cheaters.
That isn't fair. When my guildmate was banned for botting, we had no idea he was cheating, just that his DPS was high.
Blizzard has never divulged disciplinary actions on other accounts to anyone. Is it fair to guilds? No, but then again your raiders botting wasn't fair to the guild either. Just make it known to your raiders that you require X% of attendance, and failure to inform leadership of why you missed (or will be missing) raids may result in your being benched or kicked from the guild entirely if attendance falls below that mark. If they really care about the guild, they'll honor that and let you know they were banned so you know who needs replacing and then you can decide later on whether to let them stay on the raid team or not.

While it would be nice for Blizzard to give GMs a heads up, you have to remember that their policy is to not share that information with anyone who isn't the account owner so the chances of it happening are 0.
10/14/2017 04:26 PMPosted by Caecivenator
Again though, They don't need to know WHY. Just the WHAT. And yes, I do think it is appropriate that maybe blizzard should be ok with some public shaming.


yeah, they're never going to do that.

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