Housing a waste of resource?

General Discussion
10/27/2017 06:11 PMPosted by Skymane
...ok. what about when they added t-mogs to the game. or pokemon battles. each time they added new things to the game they were still able to keep up with what they were already doing. player housing shouldn't be any different. especially if they do instanced housing. instance housing is the most basic housing you can do. you don't have to add anything just use what's already in the game. the only thing they would have to add is a mounting option to weapons already in the game and being able to pick up tables and rugs out in dungeons to be added as an item in your inventory to later place in your instanced house.
wait,so your basically saying u want player housing to be the most basic laziest design and cheapiest for the devs to do possible,with little orginal artwork as possible ? that's your entire argument here? please tell me I am wrong

if they didn't put even a SHRED of detail and thought into player housing, not only would A. no one would bother so it'd be a waste of resouces they can use for other things and B, people would be complaining to the devs that they didn't put any more thought into the decorations and other types of things for the player housing
that's all i want. i don't care for outside decorations, the shape of my house, the look of my house, where it's located. inside decorating is all i care about. and also you are just assuming players wouldn't want that. more than half the arguments for player housing is having basic instanced housing.
10/27/2017 06:14 PMPosted by Meritha
10/27/2017 06:06 PMPosted by Anju
instance housing is the most basic housing you can do. you don't have to add anything just use what's already in the game. the only thing they would have to add is a mounting option to weapons already in the game and being able to pick up tables and rugs out in dungeons to be added as an item in your inventory to later place in your instanced house.


So garrisons with rugs/tables/weapons. I am sure that would be a smashing hit.

/s

10/27/2017 06:12 PMPosted by Wyspers
Still waiting on that Profit and Loss, buddy! Any day now!


I am not the one that made the claim that it would take the same amount of resources, buddy. So *I* am the one waiting in actuality. When making a claim, (I realize you were not the one who made it) it is up to you to prove your claim. It is not up to your audience to disprove your claim.


Yeah if we're going to argue about speculation as fact? I'll wait 'till you can deliver on that dev pipeline.
...

That's the problem with guild housing... There is no ther way to design it.

1. Make it so it's a static look - Could just meet in an existing location
2. Make it cosmetic only - Why would anyone bother

But if it's functional AND customizable SOMEONE has to customize it. Who? Can't let everybody or it would look stupid and change by the minute. So who customizes?


These are really great questions. Guild halls have been a popular idea. I would imagine it would be a new version of garrisons with an attached housing group. The former would be pre-made with options, the later customized. I definitely understand the skepticism on this idea after garrisons.

Still, the garrison assets are still in game and not being used. I refer to the code that brought them into the game not the artwork. They built class halls this time around. Those were cool but we don't talk to each other in them. There were some quests to do. They're done. I really don't want to go back to them at all anymore.

There is room for guild halls.


You make very good points as well... but my issue with guild halls has nothing to with assets or development. It's about community. Even if you use the garrison resources, SOMEONE gets to choose which ones to use to customize the space. Some ONE, not everyone... otherwise you'd go to your guild and find everything different from the last time you were there ten minutes ago. The question remains. WHO chooses?

I played City of Heroes when they introduced Super Group bases. A Massive system with literaly thousands of customization options that MAYBE 1% of the playerbase ever got to use. Why? Because only the group leader and those he/she designated could access the interface. Yet group resources, generated by everyone, were spent on customization. Eventually is became few individuals, exploiting hundreds of players, so they could enjoy a feature no one else could play with... it got so bad that NCsoft eventually reduced the cost and other requirements so that everyone could afford to make their own... which was essentially personal housing (they eventually implemented actual personal housing which seemed redundant at that point).
10/27/2017 06:18 PMPosted by Wyspers
Yeah if we're going to argue about speculation as fact? I'll wait 'till you can deliver on that dev pipeline.


I will deliver right after the OP delivers the proof that the resources would be the same.

Or we could continue this silly game and I could say I am the Queen of England and that is a fact until you are able to provide proof that I am not.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

These are really great questions. Guild halls have been a popular idea. I would imagine it would be a new version of garrisons with an attached housing group. The former would be pre-made with options, the later customized. I definitely understand the skepticism on this idea after garrisons.

Still, the garrison assets are still in game and not being used. I refer to the code that brought them into the game not the artwork. They built class halls this time around. Those were cool but we don't talk to each other in them. There were some quests to do. They're done. I really don't want to go back to them at all anymore.

There is room for guild halls.


You make very good points as well... but my issue with guild halls has nothing to with assets or development. It's about community. Even if you use the garrison resources, SOMEONE gets to choose which ones to use to customize the space. Some ONE, not everyone... otherwise you'd go to your guild and find everything different from the last time you were there ten minutes ago. The question remains. WHO chooses?

I played City of Heroes when they introduced Super Group bases. A Massive system with literaly thousands of customization options that MAYBE 1% of the playerbase ever got to use. Why? Because only the group leader and those he/she designated could access the interface. Yet group resources, generated by everyone, were spent on customization. Eventually is became few individuals, exploiting hundreds of players, so they could enjoy a feature no one else could play with... it got so bad that NCsoft eventually reduced the cost and other requirements so that everyone could afford to make their own... which was essentially personal housing (they eventually implemented actual personal housing which seemed redundant at that point).


I'm not sure how I'd build guild halls. I have lot's of ideas to throw around but trying to think from your perspective I would make them standard in some way. The real challenge is providing a fair system right? So how could we do that without creating what happened in city of heroes, or other problems. Probably just as important is not re-creating the garrison isolation effect.

Also, some players might be in very small guilds or guidless. They shouldn't be impacted negatively right? That has to be thought out. I could come up with ideas for all of these but it's a lot easier when you're in a room with five to seven other creative and intuitive people.

I'd rather talk about the fun stuff. Like ... how awesome my place is gonna look and how jealous you're gonna be. So jelly that you're gonna barely even work on yours and just hang out with me at my pad. Because it's awesome. And I have pie.

As for resources, they already have the assets for housing done I believe. Whether or not they will use them we'll see. I definitely think with what they put into class halls, artifacts, legendaries, and other elements of the game they have the bandwidth to implement housing. In addition to some other sorely needed fixes to challenges like the game engine.

Blizz is gonna do what Blizz is gonna do. Activision will have to decide if funding for projects is worth it. They know their numbers better than we ever will.
... wait,so your basically saying u want player housing to be the most basic laziest design and cheapiest for the devs to do possible,with little orginal artwork as possible ? that's your entire argument here? please tell me I am wrong

if they didn't put even a SHRED of detail and thought into player housing, not only would A. no one would bother so it'd be a waste of resouces they can use for other things and B, people would be complaining to the devs that they didn't put any more thought into the decorations and other types of things for the player housing
that's all i want. i don't care for outside decorations, the shape of my house, the look of my house, where it's located. inside decorating is all i care about. and also you are just assuming players wouldn't want that. more than half the arguments for player housing is having basic instanced housing.
there's a difference between "basic instanced housing" and not being able to customize it to your liking, with all the different kinds of laterns, outdoor bird pools,ect....ect you can have in real life, if people are going to have a housing unit I want to at least beable to customize it then just basically live in a unit that was a former trade shop at one point in its life. forget that
There are a lot of assets already in game to use as a basis for furniture or other housing contents.
10/27/2017 06:24 PMPosted by Skymane
...that's all i want. i don't care for outside decorations, the shape of my house, the look of my house, where it's located. inside decorating is all i care about. and also you are just assuming players wouldn't want that. more than half the arguments for player housing is having basic instanced housing.
there's a difference between "basic instanced housing" and not being able to customize it to your liking, with all the different kinds of laterns, outdoor bird pools,ect....ect you can have in real life, if people are going to have a housing unit I want to at least beable to customize it then just basically live in a unit that was a former trade shop at one point in its life. forget that
live in it? i just want to decorate it. i don't want a bank, auction house or a merchant in my house. i just want to decorate a room/multiple rooms. screw the outside of a house.
10/27/2017 06:12 PMPosted by Wyspers
10/27/2017 06:10 PMPosted by Meritha


Historical action can be easily considered to be proof. If they couldn't spare the resources to give different models based on race, why in the world would you think that they would now have even more resources to spend on it?


Still waiting on that Profit and Loss, buddy! Any day now!


P&L reports are not exclusive to C-level executives. In addition, it is very unlikely that a P&L report would itemize individual DEV projects as part of the report itself. In other words, a P&L report would not include an entry called 'WoW housing development' because there is no gain/loss expected on code development by itself (other than maybe critical bugs taking down some part of the business that actually makes money).

The project itself might be in the timeline for the DEV team but likely in a very low priority queue.
... there's a difference between "basic instanced housing" and not being able to customize it to your liking, with all the different kinds of laterns, outdoor bird pools,ect....ect you can have in real life, if people are going to have a housing unit I want to at least beable to customize it then just basically live in a unit that was a former trade shop at one point in its life. forget that
live in it? i just want to decorate it. i don't want a bank, auction house or a merchant in my house. i just want to decorate a room/multiple rooms. screw the outside of a house.
*sighs* I'm not talking about having garrison like stuff inside it,im talking about decorations,like a bird pool outside in your yard if they include one,a high hanging lamp.......blinds....shades,the whole nine yards.

and"just wanting to decorate rooms" and never actually spending any remote amount of time inside them defeats the purpose, if you never spend a decent amount of time decorating or just staying in your house other then being say,out in the world. then player housing isn't needed in this game.

though at the same time, people will rarely if ever go out into the world if they got player housing. say what u want about garrisons,but it'd be the same result, give people player housing,and they'd never leave it
10/27/2017 06:28 PMPosted by Panoptes
10/27/2017 06:12 PMPosted by Wyspers
...

Still waiting on that Profit and Loss, buddy! Any day now!


P&L reports are not exclusive to C-level executives. In addition, it is very unlikely that a P&L report would itemize individual DEV projects as part of the report itself. In other words, a P&L report would not include an entry called 'WoW housing development' because there is no gain/loss expected on code development by itself (other than maybe critical bugs taking down some part of the business that actually makes money).

The project itself might be in the timeline for the DEV team but likely in a very low priority queue.


well it actually could itemize the team but lol anyways I love you for this. :)
<span class="truncated">...</span>live in it? i just want to decorate it. i don't want a bank, auction house or a merchant in my house. i just want to decorate a room/multiple rooms. screw the outside of a house.
*sighs* I'm not talking about having garrison like stuff inside it,im talking about decorations,like a bird pool outside in your yard if they include one,a high hanging lamp.......blinds....shades,the whole nine yards.

and"just wanting to decorate rooms" and never actually spending any remote amount of time inside them defeats the purpose, if you never spend a decent amount of time decorating or just staying in your house other then being say,out in the world. then player housing isn't needed in this game.

though at the same time, people will rarely if ever go out into the world if they got player housing. say what u want about garrisons,but it'd be the same result, give people player housing,and they'd never leave it
no. i'm with you on everything but the outside and a yard...i don't need a yard. i don't need an outside to decorate. shades/lamps/couches/wall mounted weapons/beds/rugs/tables/curtains/spice racks/crafting stations. i'm all for all of that. but i just want to decorate and organize the inside of a building. i'll take potted plants i can put inside and pets to walk around my floor. but i don't need bird feeders or sprinklers.

edit:you can do like eq2 and have books you can collect. single books or stacks of books or both. dungeon equipment like cages, chains, skeletons. pictures of illidan, antonidas, varian, anduin, vol'jin, sylvannas. i'm all for that.
10/27/2017 06:41 PMPosted by Anju
no. i'm with you on everything but the outside and a yard...i don't need a yard. i don't need an outside to decorate. shades/lamps/couches/wall mounted weapons/beds/rugs/tables/curtains/spice racks/crafting stations. i'm all for all of that. but i just want to decorate and organize the inside of a building. i'll take potted plants i can put inside and pets to walk around my floor. but i don't need bird feeders or sprinklers.


That's great, but you are honestly the first person I have seen that has stated explicitly that they would be satisfied with something that just let them decorate the inside. I am sure there are more than just you, but most posts I have seen have wanted far far more detail than that.

They probably could give us a couple of rooms with reused content for very little overhead, but most pro-player housing people would be just as unhappy with that as they are with no housing at all. That being the case... what's the point of adding it?
10/27/2017 06:48 PMPosted by Meritha
10/27/2017 06:41 PMPosted by Anju
no. i'm with you on everything but the outside and a yard...i don't need a yard. i don't need an outside to decorate. shades/lamps/couches/wall mounted weapons/beds/rugs/tables/curtains/spice racks/crafting stations. i'm all for all of that. but i just want to decorate and organize the inside of a building. i'll take potted plants i can put inside and pets to walk around my floor. but i don't need bird feeders or sprinklers.


That's great, but you are honestly the first person I have seen that has stated explicitly that they would be satisfied with something that just let them decorate the inside. I am sure there are more than just you, but most posts I have seen have wanted far far more detail than that.

They probably could give us a couple of rooms with reused content for very little overhead, but most pro-player housing people would be just as unhappy with that as they are with no housing at all. That being the case... what's the point of adding it?
it's the only reason i still play eq2. i don't need anymore than that. don't get me wrong i'll take more. but i don't need more.

edit: the same reason for adding transmogs and mounts to collect. i'm not a fan for hunting for mogs and mounts. i do it. but, if i had that kind of player housing i would just focus on that. i don't have 200 mounts. i have like 80. and it's only because they stood out to me or were really easy to get (also the garrison mounts were easy and free). i'm more of a if it looks good i'll go and get it type of searcher for mogs and mounts. as for housing. i'd spend months looking for a book to add to my collection on a shelf in my room.
10/27/2017 06:22 PMPosted by Wyspers
I'm not sure how I'd build guild halls. I have lot's of ideas to throw around but trying to think from your perspective I would make them standard in some way. The real challenge is providing a fair system right? So how could we do that without creating what happened in city of heroes, or other problems.


It happened here too, only on a smaller scale. Back when guild perks were a thing one of the "perks" was that a percentage of the gold you looted went into the guild bank. Overnight, guild invite spamming got so bad you couldn't play unless you turned them off. And of course, all the tabs in the guild bank were closed to anyone but officers and the average players withdrawl limit was 0. A very few players got uber-wealthy off the backs of others who just wanted faster flight speed and mass res.

I play this game to have fun, not to be exploited. I get enough of that in RL. Unless a guild hall is just a static, one size fits all, useless meeting place with no perks, functionality, or customization someone will find a way to exploit others. And if it's that... just meet up in Stormwind Cathedral... or some random barn in Westfall if you want to feel secluded.
ESO added player housing in February this year. I only recently took a look at how they are doing it but from what I can see its fairly basic - various house sizes, the ability to decorate, and that's it.

What it DOES do is provide multiple locations where you can build a house throughout the world. And when you go to that house, you come out in that location. So, in effect, its a means of getting around in a game that has no flight so the only form of transport is walking, riding ground mounts or using the quite substantial portal system. Also, its account wide, so any character can use any house.

There were benefits elsewhere - some of the professions gained the ability to make items for housing, furniture and decorations and such. They range in size from a one room apartment that's free, up to an Estate that's almost 4 million gold.

They are beautiful, but then ESO is a beautiful game so its only expected. But aside from being a gold sink and a crafting income maker, I'm not quite sure what other benefits they might provide.

It would be interesting to see if Blizzard approach player housing the same way.
So you're basically saying you want player housing to be the most basic, laziest design and cheapest for the devs to do as possible, with as little orginal artwork as possible ?
You're really bad at reading... The guy said that instanced housing (placing the houses in individual instances rather than out in the open world) would be the easiest option. They've already done this with Garrisons and Order Halls. The technology exists, the resources for buildings and items exists, and from a development point of view it makes perfect sense to program things simply since half the arguments here seem to be "but mah resources!". No one said they should cheap out on design, or details.

10/27/2017 05:17 PMPosted by Deathchix
housing would require a lot more resources than "fluff."
Probably less than you'd think. All the resources and graphics are already in the game, so it's not like they need to redesign or recode anything. Given player housing would also likely be instanced, they could also use newer tech rather than the old engine.

10/27/2017 05:17 PMPosted by Deathchix
which most didn't like so why would they consider reusing it?
Given your time spent on GD I'm going to assume you're being deliberately idiotic. The hate behind Garrisons had very little to do with the visual resources (though many thought limiting it to Human/Orc was stupid) and everything to do with implementation and a lack of customisation. People supposedly hated Cataclysm, but that doesn't mean Blizzard shouldn't use the resources they created for that expansion in other areas of the game if they can.

10/27/2017 05:17 PMPosted by Skymane
but that wont sit well with the entire playerbase since not everyone likes to raid and they will feel "forced" to raid to get housing supplies.
Sure, in the same way they feel "forced" to do Mythic raids in order to get the best Xmog. Housing would ideally be 100% cosmetic and offer no in-game benefit other than Fun, just like Xmog does so no player would ever feel that they have to do a particular bit of content to get something.

10/27/2017 05:21 PMPosted by Flan
Battle pets & holidays = minigames encountered while exploring the world.
Mogs, mounts, toys, barbershop = ways to personalize the way your character appears to others in the world.
Player housing isn't either of those things.
Um, what? Player housing is 100% a way to personalise your character. It also encourages players to take part in all forms of content if they want, which includes the mini-games like Battle Pets, Holidays and PvP. You're also ignoring the fact that most players don't care what other players think about their character, often choosing the Xmog they think looks best rather than what people tell them looks best. Housing would be similar, in that I could spend 100s of hours making my house look the way I want it to look and not give a damn what any other player thinks of it.

10/27/2017 05:21 PMPosted by Flan
and in order to use the house you have to leave the social world.
Is that the social world where everyone sits silently in Dalaran waiting for a queue to pop? The social world where not one player says a word during grouped content? Yeah, I thought so. If you think housing isn't sociable, you really need to spend 5 minutes in Wildstar housing and realise that the community there is probably one of the best in any MMO.

10/27/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Crepe
They indicated that they'd consider creating buildings for different races for the garrison early on in beta. But they shifted away from that very quickly due to the resources necessary to do create them.
To be fair they scrapped 90% of WoD content, so it's not exclusive to the Garrisons. Capital cities were too "resource intensive", as was having more than 2 raid tiers apparently, or open-world content, or pvp, or additional zones for late-expansion...

10/27/2017 05:24 PMPosted by Jamalia
It should be mentioned that player housing already exists. WOD revolved around it. Remember?
The fact that people think the Garrison or Order Hall is anything close to player housing just shows how ignorant the WoW community is, and illustrates exactly why we can never have nice things. Go play any MMO with housing, then come back and try to make a logical comparison to Garrisons. The closest I can come up with is "you can build buildings in both" and that's about where it ends.

10/27/2017 05:34 PMPosted by Flan
For that matter, why would I go out of my way to look at my house?
Just because you don't care for player housing doesn't mean others don't. I would never go out of my way to do PvP, but I don't want it removed... There are people who play this game differently to you...

10/27/2017 05:43 PMPosted by Skymane
people hated garrisons because they were stuck inside 24/7 without going out into the world.
Well partly because there was no capital city worth visiting, no content worth leaving it for, and it contained literally everything you could EVER need for character progression other than raiding. People weren't stuck in their garrison because they wanted to be. Housing on the other hand would give players something to do, while still giving them content that encourages them to go outside. Keeping the house purely cosmetic rather than as a place to access your bank, AH, mats, crafting table etc would mean you're only there if you want to be there.

So garrisons with rugs/tables/weapons. I am sure that would be a smashing hit.
You're nitpicking because you know your argument is weak. You know damn well it would be more than just a garrison with a few rugs and tables. Wildstar has something like over 100,000 pre-made housing items and the players themselves have created thousands more using various combinations.

10/27/2017 06:16 PMPosted by Fluffybadger
I like how wildstar did player housing...,,too bad the rest of the game sucked.
Sadly the anti-housing idiots will say that it's because housing took up all their resources and they spent too much of their budget on that so they couldn't make a good game. Wildstar failed due to dev stubbornness and flawed game design (turns out an MMO that caters only to the hardcore players with 8+ hours a day to sink into it isn't financially viable), and realistically it only survived because the player housing is so amazing that players have stuck around.
The whole game is now about fluff and minigames instead of the actual game so it's not surprising to have even more of that.
10/27/2017 07:10 PMPosted by Tuckletuts
So you're basically saying you want player housing to be the most basic, laziest design and cheapest for the devs to do as possible, with as little orginal artwork as possible ?
You're really bad at reading... The guy said that instanced housing (placing the houses in individual instances rather than out in the open world) would be the easiest option. They've already done this with Garrisons and Order Halls. The technology exists, the resources for buildings and items exists, and from a development point of view it makes perfect sense to program things simply since half the arguments here seem to be "but mah resources!". No one said they should cheap out on design, or details.

to be honest. all i want/need is rented rooms. one that i can enter from a door out in the world that would take me to an empty room/rooms that i could fill with items. that's my whole argument.
Player housing? Nah.

Guild halls? Hell yeah. I'd love a huge guild hall that we get to customize and deck out, they can add stuff in raids and dungeons that we need to do as a guild to unlock features and bonuses etc.

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