Is it just me?

Story Forum
Did anyone noticed how sylvana's face looks "alive" when anduin grabs the holy ray... am i imagining stuff, can she be "cleansed" of being undead? I would love to see that, i know she's terrible but i want some kind of redemption even kindness for her
All I know for sure is after Anduin cried, 'For the Alliance,' she got this kind of smile that REALLY made me think she was ECSTATIC to FINALLY have a real fight. Before that she just seemed really bored or annoyed with the whole thing.
Err... no.

It kinda robs the story of any drama if every problem can be trivially solved by just shooting it with happy light magic.
11/06/2017 09:56 AMPosted by Janadis
Did anyone noticed how sylvana's face looks "alive" when anduin grabs the holy ray... am i imagining stuff, can she be "cleansed" of being undead? I would love to see that, i know she's terrible but i want some kind of redemption even kindness for her


She had brief smirk, but that's it. It felt more like a surprised condescending smirk, as if she was surprised that "little Anduin" was stepping up to the plate.

But no. If Sylvanas is going to be redeemed, she isn't going to be magic'd good. That's just terrible.
11/06/2017 10:07 AMPosted by Hackbrew
If Sylvanas is going to be redeemed, she isn't going to be magic'd good. That's just terrible.


Arguably, she already is being magicd into goodness.

What made her evil in the first place is what makes most undead evil - their souls are improperly attached to their bodies, disabling them from feeling positive emotions like living beings would.

So anything that can counter Frostmourne's magic (like the Valkyr raising her) could be improving her ability to feel emotion and bring her character back to what it was in life.

I'm jus' saying. Sylvanas didn't give a fk about anyone in Edge of Night, but after being raised by the Valkyr she's actually in love with Nathanos. And Nathanos didn't give a fk about having his soul ripped out and placed into his cousin's body until after the Valkyr actually did it.

What made her evil in the first place is what makes most undead evil - their souls are improperly attached to their bodies, disabling them from feeling positive emotions like living beings would
There's actually no source directly saying this.
11/06/2017 10:11 AMPosted by Yagarr
11/06/2017 10:07 AMPosted by Hackbrew
If Sylvanas is going to be redeemed, she isn't going to be magic'd good. That's just terrible.


Arguably, she already is being magicd into goodness.

What made her evil in the first place is what makes most undead evil - their souls are improperly attached to their bodies, disabling them from feeling positive emotions like living beings would.

So anything that can counter Frostmourne's magic (like the Valkyr raising her) could be improving her ability to feel emotion and bring her character back to what it was in life.

I'm jus' saying. Sylvanas didn't give a fk about anyone in Edge of Night, but after being raised by the Valkyr she's actually in love with Nathanos. And Nathanos didn't give a fk about having his soul ripped out and placed into his cousin's body until after the Valkyr actually did it.


This is the best explanation I've heard. But she's still evil, just not an automaton anymore.

Doesn't really explain the Argent Undead, Leonid Barthalomew, though.
11/06/2017 10:11 AMPosted by Yagarr
What made her evil in the first place is what makes most undead evil - their souls are improperly attached to their bodies, disabling them from feeling positive emotions like living beings would.

So that's why she wanted the Val'kyr in Stormheim!

It was all just a misunderstanding. All she wanted was for the Val'kyr to give the other Forsaken all the warm fuzzies she feels every day.
11/06/2017 10:14 AMPosted by Carcaron

What made her evil in the first place is what makes most undead evil - their souls are improperly attached to their bodies, disabling them from feeling positive emotions like living beings would
There's actually no source directly saying this.


Q:Are there long-term effects on an undead who is in regular contact with the Holy Light in a positive way?

A:It is difficult to say, as there are no known records of undead wielding the Holy Light before the Third War. There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath. Unfortunately, this may be the cause of the Forsaken priesthood's increased attempts at self-destruction; regaining these senses would force the priests to smell their own rotting flesh, taste the decay in their mouths and throats, and even feel the maggots burrowing within their bodies.

Q:Is there a reason that many priest spells, especially shadow priest spells, have names that refer to psychic phenomena like " [Mind Spike]" or " [Psychic Horror]"? Are priests implicitly telepaths?

A:The Light is often said to bring about feelings of positive emotion— hope, courage, comfort— and the like. Shadow abilities are just the opposite, able to impart feelings like despair, doubt, and panic. In a poetic sense, it can be said that the emotions which the Light brings about come from the "heart," whereas the emotions manipulated by shadow are often based on survival logic, and therefore affect the "mind." That said, priests and their abilities are not necessarily always psychic or telepathic in nature.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev
11/06/2017 10:18 AMPosted by Yagarr
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev

That isn't really specific, though. It doesn't say that undead can only feel negative emotions. For all we know, it could just be extreme, systematic, cynical depression due to their state of being. And the Light is known to trigger positive emotions in people.
11/06/2017 10:11 AMPosted by Yagarr
11/06/2017 10:07 AMPosted by Hackbrew
If Sylvanas is going to be redeemed, she isn't going to be magic'd good. That's just terrible.


Arguably, she already is being magicd into goodness.

What made her evil in the first place is what makes most undead evil - their souls are improperly attached to their bodies, disabling them from feeling positive emotions like living beings would.

So anything that can counter Frostmourne's magic (like the Valkyr raising her) could be improving her ability to feel emotion and bring her character back to what it was in life.

I'm jus' saying. Sylvanas didn't give a fk about anyone in Edge of Night, but after being raised by the Valkyr she's actually in love with Nathanos. And Nathanos didn't give a fk about having his soul ripped out and placed into his cousin's body until after the Valkyr actually did it.


Yagarr, as a lurker I've disagreed with you a lot, but I want to say that I love this theory and that you presented it very well. Thank you for the insight.
11/06/2017 10:14 AMPosted by Carcaron
...There's actually no source directly saying this.


Q:Are there long-term effects on an undead who is in regular contact with the Holy Light in a positive way?

A:It is difficult to say, as there are no known records of undead wielding the Holy Light before the Third War. There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath. Unfortunately, this may be the cause of the Forsaken priesthood's increased attempts at self-destruction; regaining these senses would force the priests to smell their own rotting flesh, taste the decay in their mouths and throats, and even feel the maggots burrowing within their bodies.

Q:Is there a reason that many priest spells, especially shadow priest spells, have names that refer to psychic phenomena like " [Mind Spike]" or " [Psychic Horror]"? Are priests implicitly telepaths?

A:The Light is often said to bring about feelings of positive emotion— hope, courage, comfort— and the like. Shadow abilities are just the opposite, able to impart feelings like despair, doubt, and panic. In a poetic sense, it can be said that the emotions which the Light brings about come from the "heart," whereas the emotions manipulated by shadow are often based on survival logic, and therefore affect the "mind." That said, priests and their abilities are not necessarily always psychic or telepathic in nature.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev
Neither of those quotes say Undeath supernaturally dulls positive emotions, only that the Light brings about unbidden flashes of positive emotions. That does not mean their positive emotions were dulled to begin with.

Again, I have yet to see anything specifically addressing dulled positive emotions of undead. This just seems to be a mass assumption on the community's part.
11/06/2017 10:20 AMPosted by Rokugan
That isn't really specific, though. It doesn't say that undead can only feel negative emotions.


Neither did I.

I said they can't feel positive emotions like living beings would.

They might feel some positive emotions, but not as often or as strongly as a living creature.

The Forsaken's ability to feel positive emotions is stunted, not entirely obliterated.
11/06/2017 10:27 AMPosted by Yagarr
11/06/2017 10:20 AMPosted by Rokugan
That isn't really specific, though. It doesn't say that undead can only feel negative emotions.


Neither did I.

I said they can't feel positive emotions like living beings would.

They might feel some positive emotions, but not as often or as strongly as a living creature.

The Forsaken's ability to feel positive emotions is stunted, not entirely obliterated.
And that is purely speculation. Not saying it's wrong, but without a source you have to acknowledge it's speculation.

To clarify, the dulling of emotions could very well be the natural result of trauma, not supernatural interference.
11/06/2017 10:25 AMPosted by Carcaron
Again, I have yet to see anything specifically addressing dulled positive emotions of undead. This just seems to be a mass assumption on the community's part.

[/quote]

I just showed you a quote where it said the undead felt positive emotions rarely.

We also know that they are beings of Shadow and have an entire religion based on Shadow. The Light imparts positive feelings, and the Shadow negative. Only a few Forsaken canonically engage with the Light.

Then we have the general depiction of undead as unhappy, unfeeling, suffering monsters. It's even referenced throughout the game. "Suffer well." "What joy is there in this torment." And explored in-depth through characters like Sylvanas and Nathanos.

Edge of Night references Sylvanas' hunger for death and a return to a peaceful afterlife in the first page. It ends with her about to fall and-

"She already felt her spirit reaching a place of calm for the first time in almost a decade. "

Dark Mirror says that Nathanos' state of being didn't change after Sylvanas freed him from Arthas, but that his mind returned.

"The insidious fog of control was gone, and he clenched his fists at the thought of taking revenge upon his former master. Anger and hatred still consumed his heart, but his will was again his own."

There is also this gem.

"There was no reason to deny the truth. He had lingered at the farm on orders from his queen, luring her enemies to the slaughter. He'd taken special delight in tormenting the high elf rangers of the northern foothills, the very Farstriders he'd once served alongside and commanded. Their haughty outrage bled away as they died, or twisted into a garish grimace upon those raised into undeath. And through all of it, no matter how noble the hero or how close a friend his victim might have been, Nathanos felt neither pity nor remorse. He felt nothing."

BUT after the Valkyr body swap him.

"As he turned to leave, the glinting of lamplight on polished metal drew his eye to a cluttered armor rack. He moved a few pieces aside to reveal a finely wrought breastplate that was clean and well-maintained. His thoughts drifted back to the ritual, to the empty altar next to his. To a choice.

For the briefest of moments, he felt the touch of something foreign, unsettling. A sensation absent since the day he died. A weakness of mortality that had imperceptibly stalked him and had, at long last, found his throat.

Nathanos felt regret."
I just showed you a quote where it said the undead felt positive emotions rarely.
As I said in my post edit, this could be a natural result of the trauma they face, accompanied by the daily existential challenges of being undead.
We also know that they are beings of Shadow and have an entire religion based on Shadow. The Light imparts positive feelings, and the Shadow negative
They said Shadow abilities, to clarify. We also don't know if this is in reference to Void or Death magic. The distinction is key, since Shadow has has referred to either on different occasions.
Then we have the general depiction of undead as unhappy, unfeeling, suffering monsters. It's even referenced throughout the game. "Suffer well." "What joy is there in this torment." And explored in-depth through characters like Sylvanas and Nathanos.
Which, as said, could just be the result of depression.

Thus far, this is speculation.
Characters like that Hozen-loving dead girl and Faol are rare.

Am I to believe Sylvanas and Nathanos, the two primary Forsaken characters, are just abnormally !@#$ed up and this literature isn't meant to reflect the greater condition of the Forsaken?
11/06/2017 10:40 AMPosted by Carcaron
They said Shadow abilities,


The Forsaken were raised by a Shadow ability.

Their entire existence is built upon "Shadow" magic.

"Sylvanas Windrunner drifts in a sea of comfort, physical sensations replaced by the purity of emotion. She can grasp bliss, see joy, hear peace. This is the afterlife, her destiny. The eternal sea in which she found herself after she fell defending Silvermoon. She belongs here. With each recollection, her memory of this place palls. The sound grows distant; the warmth, cooler. The vision takes on the pallor of a half-remembered dream. But with horrific clarity, the memory always ends the same: Sylvanas's spirit is wrenched away. The pain is so intense it leaves her soul forever torn."

We know Arthas' magic destroyed the emotional range of his undead, forcing them to essentially feel just anger and negative emotions. We know the Light can restore the ability to feel positive emotions. We know must undead avoid the Light.

So most undead should be like Nathanos pre-Valkyr. Still stuck in the Lich King's state of undeath, just with free will.
11/06/2017 10:45 AMPosted by Yagarr
Characters like that Hozen-loving dead girl and Faol are rare.

Am I to believe Sylvanas and Nathanos, the two primary Forsaken characters are just abnormally !@#$ed up and this literature isn't meant to reflect the greater condition of the Forsaken?
You are welcome to believe as you will, tho you are yet to give me a definitive source on the matter that cannot be explained through other means.
11/06/2017 10:40 AMPosted by Carcaron
Which, as said, could just be the result of depression.


Here is what Arthas' magic did to people.

The world swam through a thick, smoky haze. There was no reason, no sense. Only hatred. A hatred rooted deep in the corners of his mind, its tendrils twisting, vinelike, through his fetid core. The man he'd been was murdered, his blood now salting the farmlands he had once called home. This creature might inhabit the dead man's body, but it possessed no will of its own. It didn't need one. It existed only to serve the Lich King.

He turned back to the ground where the half-consumed corpse of his latest victim lay. A warm rush of strength flowed into his body as he ripped a mouthful of flesh from her throat. He remembered the ecstasy that had gripped him as her screams grew quiet, the terror that froze in her dead eyes as he devoured her. Craving that sensation again, he tore off another bite.

Had days or years passed since he'd been raised? It mattered not at all. Time was the burden of mortals, and the master's gift had freed him from it. A singular purpose now drove his every action, a compulsion to spread the plague of undeath through the fallen kingdom of Lordaeron. To ravage the very lands his human soul had loved. Were there room for aught but malice in his heart, he would have laughed long and loud at the irony.

He stopped feasting and waited. He waited because it was his master's will that he do so.

A moment passed before he sensed it. The unholy magic that had reanimated his own lifeless body now caused hers to stir. He watched in rapturous wonder as the corpse that had been his victim arose a Scourge, as driven to end life as he was. She looked at him, the fear gone from her undead eyes, replaced by smoldering rage.

-

So Arthas clearly destroyed his undead's ability to feel positive emotion. It was just servitude and hatred.

-

Then we have a reference that said nothing changed for Nathanos after Arthas' mind control ended, other than he received the ability to think again.

"The insidious fog of control was gone, and he clenched his fists at the thought of taking revenge upon his former master. Anger and hatred still consumed his heart, but his will was again his own."

-

Then we see him behaving the exact same way he did under Arthas, except for Sylvanas. His emotional state hasn't changed.

"There was no reason to deny the truth. He had lingered at the farm on orders from his queen, luring her enemies to the slaughter. He'd taken special delight in tormenting the high elf rangers of the northern foothills, the very Farstriders he'd once served alongside and commanded. Their haughty outrage bled away as they died, or twisted into a garish grimace upon those raised into undeath. And through all of it, no matter how noble the hero or how close a friend his victim might have been, Nathanos felt neither pity nor remorse. He felt nothing."

-

And then we see him actually become more "human" after the Valkyr body swap him.

"For the briefest of moments, he felt the touch of something foreign, unsettling. A sensation absent since the day he died. A weakness of mortality that had imperceptibly stalked him and had, at long last, found his throat.

Nathanos felt regret."

----

The Forsaken are not "depressed"

They are emotionally stunted and psychologically !@#$ed up because of Arthas' vein of necromantic magic.

He did not care he killed his cousin, he did not care he killed his former farstriders, he didn't care about anything he had done until after Arthas' magic was supplanted by the Valkyr.

Similarly, Sylvanas didn't lovingly care about Nathanos in Edge of Night or any other material until after she was raised by the Valkyr.

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