Reforging = Bad, Netherlight = Good? Wat

General Discussion
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Out with the old, in with the new. The Wheel of WoW keeps turning.
Hey guys!

We’ve been seeing a lot of discussion going back and forth on the Crucible lately, so we’ve had some conversations with the development team and I wanted to pop in and share a few points that came out of it.

Regarding comparisons to Reforging – Reforging was always a simple, mechanical choice. Players were, at the end of the day, simply replacing their worst stats with best stats on every item that didn’t already have your best stats up to a mechanical limit. The Crucible, by comparison, is only affecting a small subset of items and presents much more varied situations than say “change 30 Hit Chance into Haste”.

We’ve also seen a bit of discussion around players desiring the ability to respec the Traits that are locked on the second and third tiers of relics. We feel that the ability to respect Traits would lead to players picking traits based on perfect optimization for any given situation, which could lead to players leaving a raid to change to AoE-centric traits for the next fight during raid progression. While we feel that’s a nuisance in itself, this would also make the system feel like a watered-down version of talent rows, and would undermine the choice that is made when selecting your Relic Traits.

That being said, Relics are items and will be replaced; we do expect players to make choices and experiment with this system. Since there is still new content ahead of us in Antorus, better Relics will be available and players who make choices they may not like now will have the opportunity to get new Relics before long with a potentially new set of Trait choices.

As a note, we are also fine with the current state that Relics Soulbind on inspection in the Crucible. We believe the alternative of everyone porting in and out of the raid to pass the relic around and see who it’s best for is far, far worse. Players are smart and will be able to make educated decisions based on the information that’s available to them. As I said, we do expect experimentation however.

A final note: I saw the post on Reddit laying out three choices for Relics, asking players which one they would pick -
Relic A : 930 Ilvl BiS main trait, 3rd BiS bonus trait, but forces worst tier 2 crucible trait
Relic B : 915 ilvl BiS main and bonus trait and 2nd BiS crucible tier 2 trait
Relic C : 940 ilvl 2nd and 4th BiS traits and BiS crucible tier 2 trait.
The poster responded by saying the only way to know is to sim it. If you’re generally a player who simulates gear upgrades to make decisions, you’re probably going to do that anyway, and that’s fine. If you’re a player going off basic guidelines such as “I play a fire mage so I want Critical Strike” you will get by as you always do in this situation and pick what you think is best for your particular class or spec.

Thanks for all the feedback on the topic so far, I’ll be on the lookout for future discussions, as always.
Netherlight Crucible is the love child of Reforge and Reroll
09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
We feel that the ability to respect Traits would lead to players picking traits based on perfect optimization for any given situation, which could lead to players leaving a raid to change to AoE-centric traits for the next fight during raid progression.


Forget the min-maxers , they have picked a PlayStyle they wanted to play and should know what comes with it. You can't stop them playing fotm can you ??

Rest of us would like to have that option to reverse a choice :)
09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
Regarding comparisons to Reforging – Reforging was always a simple, mechanical choice. Players were, at the end of the day, simply replacing their worst stats with best stats on every item that didn’t already have your best stats up to a mechanical limit.


And Blizzard's excuse for removing it was:

- It was too complicated (it wasn't)

- Players would port out in the middle of a raid (have literally NEVER seen this happen)

- "Forced" players to "optimize"

So.....Blizzard introduces a system that:

- Adds three layers of complexity

- is in one location

- Does nothing to dissuade "optimization"

I'll leave it there.
So "we hear you, but piss off". Thanks for that response from the Devs, Orynx. -_-

Like at LEAST let us swap the pathways. People aren't going to treat it like talents; it just leaves some wiggle room in case you mess up because you were too busy to sim it DURING A RAID and wanted to UPGRADE YOUR RELIC RIGHT AWAY but because you can't swap it (like Reforging), you made a hasty and incorrect decision, and now your BiS Titanforged relic that rolled perfect NLC is now screwed because you can't swap it.

Give me a break.

09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
We feel that the ability to respect Traits would lead to players picking traits based on perfect optimization for any given situation, which could lead to players leaving a raid to change to AoE-centric traits for the next fight during raid progression.


No, people are NOT going to do this constantly, and even if they did, do you really care? That's so silly to focus on the world first players, to ruin a freedom of choice, QoL, system, for the 0.001% of players.

Edit: Schuleur above me brings up some fantastic points. Reforging was simple and you could always reverse a decision whenever you wanted at a convenient Reforging station located in every city, or even a mount that a lot of people bought (which has since been changed to Transmog). Now you have a vastly more complex system where it practically requires you to sim it because of all the variables. To sum it up:

Reforging: Hit, Crit, Mastery, Haste, maybe Expertise and/or Spirit (depends on your role), all of which are fluid, secondary, stats. Very easy to determine which is best. Can be done practically anywhere with the mount, or any major city. Can be reversed. This system was deemed annoying by Blizzard and was removed. This system would be even easier today since you only have Crit, Mastery, Haste, and Versatility now. Could also be a neat/fun way to maybe switch around Tertiary stats that rolled, those being Leech, Speed, and Avoidance!

NLC: Item Level, Trait of the Relic, T2 Traits it rolled, T3 Traits it rolled, NONE OF WHICH is fluid and known right away and requires simming to the extreme, and even then, it can yield some false information and skepticism. Can ONLY be done out of raid on the Vindicaar. This system is deemed fine by Blizzard yet is reviled by the players and not a single thing has been done to improve the system in any way since its inception on the PTR. This system adds nothing but frustration to the game.

Like why are you doing anti-QoL changes for the game and not fixing your mistakes?

PS: It'd be nice if literally worthless traits like Balance Druid's Touch of the Moon didn't exist. If a TotM relic rolled 970 Titanforged, I might have to send hate mail to every developer that worked on Legion. It also now rolling on my NLC traits is extra painful and aggravating. Seriously, this system is beyond redeemable.
09/21/2017 04:38 PMPosted by Wariya
Rest of us would like to have that option to reverse a choice :)


Love how you add that cheeky smiley face at the end to seem like your nice and innocent.

You can't just "Forget" those people and have benefits for yourselves.

I wanna forget pet battle week. I think it's worthless.
I want another option on pet battle week.

Thats basically what your saying.

As much as I hate pet battling, people still do it.
Honestly I'd rather have my old utility back and relics get pruned. Though that's not going to happen ;(
09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
We feel that the ability to respect Traits would lead to players picking traits based on perfect optimization for any given situation, which could lead to players leaving a raid to change to AoE-centric traits for the next fight during raid progression.


Players already do this to change talents, often for precisely the reason you mention (AoE versus single-target).

I actually carry the consumable item, but that seems to be more the exception than the rule.

I'm not saying that respec-ing the traits should be allowed, but rather that the talent-changing consumable is not great, for similar reasons. It didn't exist prior to Legion and should really be re-evaluated, imho.

09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx

We believe the alternative of everyone porting in and out of the raid to pass the relic around and see who it’s best for is far, far worse.


That is exactly what would happen.

So I agree that this aspect should not be changed.
09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
As a note, we are also fine with the current state that Relics Soulbind on inspection in the Crucible. We believe the alternative of everyone porting in and out of the raid to pass the relic around and see who it’s best for is far, far worse. Players are smart and will be able to make educated decisions based on the information that’s available to them. As I said, we do expect experimentation however.


You're ignoring the better alternative, which may be more work for developers, which would be for the Crucible bonuses to be viewable on the relic from the moment it drops, so players can see it in the tooltip. That way people can see the effect of the actual item they are bidding on.

Per prior statements, relic traits are hardwired (each relic is a specific combo that results in the same trait for each respective class, so the same loot item couldn't have different traits for each class, changing each time). This should mean the same RNG process that occurs when you slot a relic into the Crucible inspector could be done across all classes from the moment it drops, as if it had titanforged or rolled tertiary bonuses, and whatever, say, "Trait 4" is on each classes internal table, would be displayed. If this were implemented, I think raiders would be far more okay with the RNG elements.
Why do people keep using NLC as some kind of gotcha when it comes to reforging? They're not even remotely similar.

Reforging moved around secondaries.

NLC gives you completely random traits.
09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey guys!


So instead of introducing a huge quality of life change for most players, you guys choose not to make that decision, because of the fear that an incredibly small subset of the community may try to abuse it?

/Cue my Picard facepalm ASCII.
09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
a watered-down version of talent rows
I mean, it kind of is this by design, no? And I don't mean that as a bad thing. Its just that its a small essentially attenuated talent tree. That's kind of the point, right?

09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
As a note, we are also fine with the current state that Relics Soulbind on inspection in the Crucible. We believe the alternative of everyone porting in and out of the raid to pass the relic around and see who it’s best for is far, far worse.
But why does it have to be this way? Why have to go back to the Crucible to see what it is at all? This seems shortsighted in terms of creativity on the Devs part here.

Let me elaborate, we have our artifact weapon, and we can click on the weapon a preview all of our artifact traits, and pretty much see everything about it. But to actually upgrade it and select a new trait, we have to go to the class hall forge and make the upgrade.

Why can't relics act like that? Preview the relic the way we would with our artifact weapon, and it pops up a screen that shows the traits it will roll when you drop it into the crucible (viewable while the item still hasn't been picked up off the boss yet so everyone can look), but doesn't soulbind. That way, no one has to go back to the crucible to just preview it. You can see right there in the raid and then know whether its something your team will be better off with another member picking up.

Its just really doesn't feel good to know you are taking an item that others on your team can use, but you have no idea whether its actually an upgrade or not, and then when you finally get back to the crucible to see it... you realize it isn't an upgrade afterall and you probably should have left another team mate have it. That's a really frustrating way to make this work, can't you guys see that?

09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
Players are smart and will be able to make educated decisions based on the information that’s available to them. As I said, we do expect experimentation however.
If you guys believe the players are smart enough to make the decisions, why not give them less set up based on not knowing but guessing what they will get. I understand, there's no reason to have players go back and sim things in the middle of the raid and that would not be a good way to set it up, but the way this is set up you basically have players gambling on chances. Let players see what they will get from it and make those educated decisions you said you trust them to make. Its already random what you will get from it anyway, why go the extra step of making it a complete gamble?
09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
Regarding comparisons to Reforging – Reforging was always a simple, mechanical choice. Players were, at the end of the day, simply replacing their worst stats with best stats on every item that didn’t already have your best stats up to a mechanical limit. The Crucible, by comparison, is only affecting a small subset of items and presents much more varied situations than say “change 30 Hit Chance into Haste”.
"But more to the point, we detest putting any sort of freedom or control in the hands of the players so here's another slot machine."
09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
If you’re generally a player who simulates gear upgrades to make decisions, you’re probably going to do that anyway, and that’s fine. If you’re a player going off basic guidelines such as “I play a fire mage so I want Critical Strike” you will get by as you always do in this situation and pick what you think is best for your particular class or spec.

That's a pretty apt way to say "If you have no idea what you're doing to optimize your character, you won't really care in the first place"
Thanks for all the feedback on the topic so far, I’ll be on the lookout for future discussions, as always.

With all due respect, none of what you posted reflects that you read any discussions on the topic at all.

Also, this particular point really irks me:

09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
If you’re a player going off basic guidelines such as “I play a fire mage so I want Critical Strike” you will get by as you always do in this situation and pick what you think is best for your particular class or spec.

Basic guidelines have no relevance to whether a crucible trait is good or not. In fact, basic guidelines will generally lead you to pick the "wrong" crucible trait. Using your example of fire mages wanting Crit, I'm pretty sure that is one of the lesser traits for them. Also, you may have your "BiS" relic trait on the 3rd row and think "oh man, I really want to get that, no matter what crucible trait is connected to it", but a lot of the crucible traits are actually worth more than the relic traits. In a lot of cases, you would be better off choosing an unintuitive trait path.

This is generally referred to as a "trap", and is a big no no in game design. It was one of the stated reasons for redesigning the original talent trees.
09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey guys!

We’ve been seeing a lot of discussion going back and forth on the Crucible lately, so we’ve had some conversations with the development team and I wanted to pop in and share a few points that came out of it.

Regarding comparisons to Reforging – Reforging was always a simple, mechanical choice. Players were, at the end of the day, simply replacing their worst stats with best stats on every item that didn’t already have your best stats up to a mechanical limit. The Crucible, by comparison, is only affecting a small subset of items and presents much more varied situations than say “change 30 Hit Chance into Haste”.

We’ve also seen a bit of discussion around players desiring the ability to respec the Traits that are locked on the second and third tiers of relics. We feel that the ability to respect Traits would lead to players picking traits based on perfect optimization for any given situation, which could lead to players leaving a raid to change to AoE-centric traits for the next fight during raid progression. While we feel that’s a nuisance in itself, this would also make the system feel like a watered-down version of talent rows, and would undermine the choice that is made when selecting your Relic Traits.

That being said, Relics are items and will be replaced; we do expect players to make choices and experiment with this system. Since there is still new content ahead of us in Antorus, better Relics will be available and players who make choices they may not like now will have the opportunity to get new Relics before long with a potentially new set of Trait choices.

As a note, we are also fine with the current state that Relics Soulbind on inspection in the Crucible. We believe the alternative of everyone porting in and out of the raid to pass the relic around and see who it’s best for is far, far worse. Players are smart and will be able to make educated decisions based on the information that’s available to them. As I said, we do expect experimentation however.

A final note: I saw the post on Reddit laying out three choices for Relics, asking players which one they would pick -
Relic A : 930 Ilvl BiS main trait, 3rd BiS bonus trait, but forces worst tier 2 crucible trait
Relic B : 915 ilvl BiS main and bonus trait and 2nd BiS crucible tier 2 trait
Relic C : 940 ilvl 2nd and 4th BiS traits and BiS crucible tier 2 trait.
The poster responded by saying the only way to know is to sim it. If you’re generally a player who simulates gear upgrades to make decisions, you’re probably going to do that anyway, and that’s fine. If you’re a player going off basic guidelines such as “I play a fire mage so I want Critical Strike” you will get by as you always do in this situation and pick what you think is best for your particular class or spec.

Thanks for all the feedback on the topic so far, I’ll be on the lookout for future discussions, as always.

Completely glossed over the pointless act of removing reforging.

Typical bluespaining.
Increasing the drop rate of relics would solve a lot of the concerns with the Netherlight Crucible. It’s not uncommon for players to have the same relics for months while waiting for those diamonds in the ruff with perfect itemization. If players had more Relics than they knew what to do with, they would have more fun and viable options.

Make relics rain from the sky!!
09/21/2017 04:27 PMPosted by Ornyx
As a note, we are also fine with the current state that Relics Soulbind on inspection in the Crucible. We believe the alternative of everyone porting in and out of the raid to pass the relic around and see who it’s best for is far, far worse.


I haven't unlocked the crucible, HOWEVER I think you will find that the playerbase in general considers more excessive RNG pretty much the worst option in any design choice going forward.

I'd elaborate, but I'm sure those with far more experience than I in using this new system likely have already.

Oh, and please give us back reforging. There's a reason people keep asking for it.

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