NO to "Class Balancing"

Classic Discussion
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...That's kind of the beauty of it - I don't think anything has necessarily been decided.

These decisions will really be made by the kind of discussions we see here, so... if folks want a true 1:1 Vanilla experience, then we want to see the discussion of that. If people think there should be changes here or there, then we'll want to see that too.

The community will truly be what shapes the direction of Classic as we move forward, together.


Just please tell us you'll read as much as you can and listen to as many opinions as you can. We're having problems at others shouting down any opinions they don't agree with and trying to get them silenced/to leave.

I'm so pumped to see a blue posting here, just to confirm someone is listening on occasion.
Just to add to what Ythisens said above:

We've been reading and talking about Classic within the Community team almost every day. Before BlizzCon we were all so nervous and, really, amazed that this project was actually going to be announced at the show. But we do need to make sure things are kept in perspective - we don't want to jump onto too much of a hype/posting train, as its still all coming together and there's not much that is concrete.

I can guarantee you that the Classic team will be listening, and we will be forwarding as much along as we can. We know this project means a lot to a lot of players, and it means a lot to us too.
11/14/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Ythisens
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even small changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.


I agree in principal, but there is a significant problem with opening up discussion on class balance: there is no end point. It immediately turns into this can of worms where the change keeps going and going... and no finite end is established.

Because of that, keeping things as they were makes everything clean and clear. There's no mess to sort out. I'm not completely opposed to looking at balance changes, but restoring what existed is such a simpler task by comparison. For me, retaining the authentic feel and keeping the decision process simple is a win-win.
It's my opinion that it should be released as it was in Classic, and then see what happens from there.
11/14/2017 04:09 PMPosted by Classicwait
I was very young and very bad during vanilla, I think I only got to level 55 and only reached 60 after TBC was out, so I do not have a good recollection of how specs compared against each other. I have to say that I would be in favor of some minor rebalancing in case some specs were truly not playable at all (Moonkin is one example I hear). Of course, I don't mean that every class should be as good as the other. For example, with a bit of tuning, the best geared Moonking could be made to do at most 80% of the dps of a decently geared mage, but not something like 20% (Again, I don't know if spec imbalances were that high).


The spec imbalance isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. The issue is that the top guilds aren't going to take more than a couple people with suboptimal efficiency. If an oomkin does 95% of mage damage, accounting for the 3% spell crit buff, they're still not going to take one when they can take a mage. Being even mildly gimped is going to keep you out of server first guilds.

It doesn't stop you from raiding, it just means you're not raiding with a bleeding edge guild. But by the same token, so does being undergeared or not committed to farming consumables.

My suggestion is that if you plan on raiding heavily, figure out what role you want (melee dps, range dps, healer, or tank) and pick a class to suit that.
11/14/2017 04:07 PMPosted by Artigan
Purists, just stop. Vanilla went through 1 to 1.12, so saying change can't happen to Classic is absurd. Even Warrior was tuned making slam and cleave talents useless, and that was in Vanilla, and yet CC didn't share diminishing returns across classes, allowing for absurd lock downs, which purists will just default to, "call friends or guildies" without realizing that isn't what made Vanilla-Vanilla, and just an excuse trolls cling too.

Classes should be balanced Blizzard because PVP is all over the place, allows for trolling with no diminishing returns, nothing is competitive about that play, and boils down to gear and talents, and pigeonholes players into talent builds in dungeons and raiding.

I've never been opposed to gear giving a player an edge, but when talents have such disparity that everyone becomes essentially a cookie cutter of each other than we just end up with live. The nostalgia of those wearing rose tinted glasses can't see past their own ego, and are cutting off their noses in spite of their faces.
Just leave things like stats and mechanics at 1.12

Progress like 1.0, do things like debuff increase when proper patch comes out. Problem fixed.
11/14/2017 04:20 PMPosted by Yzulkpc

New models do kill community.


ridiculous
Changes or no, I know I'll be there day one. I'd be willing to bet 95% of the "No" crowd will be too even if the game has changes they disagree with.
11/14/2017 04:17 PMPosted by Ythisens
The community will truely be what shapes the direction of Classic as we move forward, together.


Ornyx may even be understating here, because so much is still up in the air. Even the discussions we've had as a Community team every day since we knew it was coming have been around the numerous QoL changes, class changes, content changes, and each of us has a different opinion on what Classic "should be" because to each of us Vanilla WoW was obviously different.

11/14/2017 04:11 PMPosted by Goriun
Just please tell us you'll read as much as you can and listen to as many opinions as you can. We're having problems at others shouting down any opinions they don't agree with and trying to get them silenced/to leave.

I'm so pumped to see a blue posting here, just to confirm someone is listening on occasion.


We're going to be reading a lot, that's for sure. The Warcraft community is obviously very vocal so we won't have to worry about not having things to read. I mean the fact that this project exists is because of you guys. We've heard you and we're still listening.


Good to hear, thankyou. I'm sure you were more than aware of the hostility people shove at each other when disagreements happen lol, nothing new I guess.

I'm just pleased to see this repeated, "vanilla was different to all of us" turning up, makes me feel you won't just listen to one voice and get only one side of the story, thinking that represents everyone.

Any dissention is already met with, "go away and play legion" so again, thankyou.
I played a druid..feral druid cat form.

It certainly was harder to play then my hunter.
I played around with gear/weapons, rotations, shapes.

Still died a lot while leveling but eventually figured out how to make it work and got real good at shifting on the fly to save my butt.

But the real fun came in bg's .

Druid...jack of all trades, master of none.

But also I didn't raid. Seems to me that most of the folks wanting a rebalancing of classes are asking for end game raiding balance..MC/BWL/Naxx.
11/14/2017 04:19 PMPosted by Ornyx
I can guarantee you that the Classic team will be listening

Any chance of a dedicated Classic MVP / Blue forum poster?
Maybe one that will hop into our raids every once and a while? :)
11/14/2017 04:22 PMPosted by Saltish
Changes or no, I know I'll be there day one. I'd be willing to bet 95% of the "No" crowd will be too even if the game has changes they disagree with.


Depends on what the changes are for me. There's some stuff I'd be ok with and some that would be a deal-breaker.
11/14/2017 03:48 PMPosted by Demonologies
11/14/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Ythisens
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even small changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.


Blizzard should make all the specs viable while keeping the idea of the class intact. People should be allow to play whatever spec they want and be able to get into a raid without being harassed for playing such spec. Blizzard was terrible at balancing the game back in the day due to the fact that they were new to MMORPG.

Now that Blizzard haves more experience they should go back and fix it. A lot of the patch in vanilla were class balance and people that were rogue, mage, and warrior lived in fear of their class being nerfed.

Edit: A Word


This isn't at all what vanilla is like. If you want class balancing there is already a version of the game available that has worked towards balancing classes until the game was no longer fun for a lot people. I don't think blizzard understands what a massive failure it will be to change the game in any aspect. If that's the case most people who want vanilla will just go to private servers as they are doing now.

Do not change vanilla.
11/14/2017 04:23 PMPosted by Brockthorn
I played a druid..feral druid cat form.

It certainly was harder to play then my hunter.
I played around with gear/weapons, rotations, shapes.

Still died a lot while leveling but eventually figured out how to make it work and got real good at shifting on the fly to save my butt.

But the real fun came in bg's .

Druid...jack of all trades, master of none.

But also I didn't raid. Seems to me that most of the folks wanting a rebalancing of classes are asking for end game raiding balance..MC/BWL/Naxx.
This is true. Most people clamoring for rebalance are focused on raiding.

11/14/2017 04:08 PMPosted by Nakadashi
...

I'm afraid that changing one thing will cause a cascade of changes, and I'm not talking about the slippery slope here. I mean that, in reworking, say, paladins to be viable tanks, numerous other things will need a touch up which may require other things to get a touch up.


it will be ok

a few changes could make a better experience for everyone

dont worry too much about the slippery slope, worry more about making it fun
Not vanilla. Do not make others change game bvecause you want ti played one way. Wait for TBC Classic.
I do not think Blizz will cave to the snowflakes that want their special little spec to be coddled. Then those snowflakes will want gear itemized, bosses/encounters nerfed, etc. When do you stop catering to these snowflakes? Isn't that what lead to the decline of the game as a whole?
11/14/2017 04:23 PMPosted by Elemeno
11/14/2017 04:19 PMPosted by Ornyx
I can guarantee you that the Classic team will be listening

Any chance of a dedicated Classic MVP / Blue forum poster?
Maybe one that will hop into our raids every once and a while? :)
We're working on a bit of a bigger revamp of the MVP program for WoW in the background, as well as a few other projects that should be a good solution to this.

I wouldn't expect myself, Ythisens, or any other CM to move over to an entirely Classic role at this point, however.
The worst part of viability wasn't DPS or whatever, it was homogenizing everything so you don't have to balance, removing utility, and giving everyone similar utility sets and counters for everything.

I could live with balance tweaks like adjusting ability values. What I can't is when you start giving away abilities to "fix" intentional weaknesses and shortcomings in classes.

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