NO to "Class Balancing"

Classic Discussion
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Yeah! We can't let any of those crappy specs be any good! They might think they're cool and try taking a raid slot as something other than a healer, and take ma loot! F Them! er i mean....NO CHANGES! VANILLA EXPERIENCE! Rawr!
11/14/2017 02:56 PMPosted by Brockthorn
Most of the time when people ask for 'balance' they are usually asking for increased DPS because they think their class is too weak.


Eh, i wouldn't want any increase in DPS for the hybrid classes. Things i would want would be something like:

Debuff Limit removal, so classes like SPriests could use their DoT and Mind Flay without it clipping or falling off. Allow more than 1 mind flay to be on a target at once...so you can actually use a second or more spriest

Maybe take a look at mana usage for some of the hybrids--So peeps like boomkins/Ele shamans arnt out of mana in the first 20 seconds. This wouldnt make them anywhere near the top of the meters, but they'd at least be above the tanks - giving them a worthwhile argument for a spot....maybe?

But yes i know--[Insert 'NO CHANGES! PURE VANILLA!' Dialogue Here]
I would still prop up the sub-par classes with an early balance patch (to bring them to their end of vanilla balance where they were still sub-par, but in a better shape than what they were on launch day).

Vanilla WoW went from...

In WoW Beta, hybrids were good.

Just before WoW official launch, Tigole and Furor joined the WoW team and destroyed hybrids because they hated anything else than ''pure class'' -> the era known as ''Retlol'', ''Failral'' and ''Oomkin'' and the likes was born.

By the end of Vanilla they at least made those hybrids viable.
People have ability to make more than one character. To cry for need for rebalance is useless. Would require retooling of raids to work around reworked skills, no longer vanilla.

Hybrid and less than minmax builds can still be played and enjoyed. May not end up in raid spot, but may be able to do things like cause havoc for enemy faction or own.
11/14/2017 02:51 PMPosted by Ilani
Amen.

WoW got to where it is today by changing, which is fine- that's what mmos do over time.

But classic isn't 'classic' if it's not classic. If we wanted balanced classes (or what Blizz thinks is balance) we'd play Legion. Nerfed specs provides two opportunities.

1) Free kills in pvp for players using good classes
2) Good pvpers have a chance to prove their worth by picking up a broken spec and getting good with it

If you get killed by any class now, well, whatever, every spec is practically the same now.

If you get killed by a balance druid in class WoW? Uh, that's going to be immortalized- seriously, that'll be up on youtube for everyone to mock, there'll be threads on the forums about that event. This is how classic WoW works, and it's beautiful and nobody wants it to change.


Honestly pretty much every class was viable in PVP though. Some more than others, but they all did well.
When it comes to making changes to Classic, I'm conflicted. I don't want the experience to be spoiled by changes that really go against the essence of vanilla. That said, there are a great many things I have enjoyed over the years, many of which are just quality of life changes: better flight paths, ability to toggle auto loot, buff timers, that sort of thing.

As far as class balancing goes, I'm not really sure it's necessary. Vanilla wasn't all about DPS. As far as I know, in vanilla, you could count the bosses with an enrage timer/dps check on one hand.

A lot of people seem to forget the utility classes brought to the table. Bringing someone who did a little (or even a lot) less DPS was fine, because the overall DPS/healing/utility they brought was worth their personal loss.

Take Enhancement/Elemental Shamans, for example: "Why bring an Enhancement Shaman? Their DPS sucks compared to a Fury Warrior!" Uh, because you can slap them in a group with crit-dependent melee dps classes, have them weave Windfury/Grace of Air, give them a Nightfall, and buff the raid's DPS by 2 or more times the DPS they would've done, which is well worth it.

All of the healers were viable, so there's not much need for balancing there. Tanks is where the real lack of balance came in. I do think it kind of sucks that anyone wanting to tank raids is basically shoehorned into playing a Protection Warrior, but... I'm not sure I really want to change vanilla into something else.

Most players want the authentic experience, and that includes the class balancing.
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even small changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.


You can have that discussion, but then you meet the problem where the tier sets push every class into one role.
11/14/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Ythisens
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even small changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.


I have to ask since you're a Blizzard employee. Does your opinion speak at all for the design team working on this?
11/14/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Ythisens
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even small changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.


Blizzard should make all the specs viable while keeping the idea of the class intact. People should be allow to play whatever spec they want and be able to get into a raid without being harassed for playing such spec. Blizzard was terrible at balancing the game back in the day due to the fact that they were new to MMORPG.

Now that Blizzard haves more experience they should go back and fix it. A lot of the patch in vanilla were class balance and people that were rogue, mage, and warrior lived in fear of their class being nerfed.

Edit: A Word
OK, folks, Blue has spoken.

It's on.
11/14/2017 03:48 PMPosted by Jentso
11/14/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Ythisens
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even small changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.


I have to ask since you're a Blizzard employee. Does your opinion speak at all for the design team working on this?


He is most likely here to spark discussion for the developers.
11/14/2017 03:46 PMPosted by Zones
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.


You can have that discussion, but then you meet the problem where the tier sets push every class into one role.


This, itemization was at least as much of a barrier as spec post 1.12.

I really don't want them to kill my hybrid ability with the "specialization tax" on live wow that's required for a hybrid class to be good at a single role.

Don't tell me about dual spec either, because having a DPS spec and a tank/heal spec isn't what being a hybrid is about. If anything, the essence of a hybrid is having some valuable utility a pure class doesn't.
11/14/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Ythisens
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even small changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.


You just invoked a !@#$-storm giving credence to class balancing Classic. May the light have mercy on your soul...
woah a blue? I guess they ARE reading our constant bickering..
11/14/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Ythisens
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even small changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.


This comment right here is not something I was hoping to read as a returning player excited about the prospect of a vanilla server option. I guess it was too good to be true.
dont change a thing!
11/14/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Ythisens
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even small changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.


I don't want to touch that with a 10 foot pole.

All I know is toggable graphics option, something that isn't a gameplay/QoL feature, is definitely worth discussing. No matter what side you are on.
11/14/2017 03:51 PMPosted by Lagspike
woah a blue? I guess they ARE reading our constant bickering..

Of course they are. They want feedback and no they will not go instantly with the "No Change" side. They are looking at both sides.
11/14/2017 03:48 PMPosted by Jentso
11/14/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Ythisens
I personally think its fair to have a discussion about classes/specs in Classic, considering class balancing as a philosophy didn't exist back then as it does now. The idea of a "hybrid tax" was obviously not very good in the grand scheme of overarching class design and it made some specs arguably not viable/unplayable. I'm not suggesting we make huge changes or even small changes at all for that matter, but that it is a worthwhile conversation to have.


I have to ask since you're a Blizzard employee. Does your opinion speak at all for the design team working on this?
It's more of a personal opinion. As you've read numerous times, the team for Classic is just now coming together, so I wouldn't say there's much of an opinion internally one way or the other.

This is more so a "we", the Community team, remember that class balance was one of the more contentious discussions during the early days - and it could be useful feedback to continue those discussion so we can have a concrete place to look at how players feel Classic balance should be.

Should class balance be left as it was, or should it be tweaked within a certain margin, or should it be constantly tuned and worked on? I'm not so certain that any specific one is the default, correct choice.

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