What's the point of "Normal" raid difficulty?

General Discussion
09/18/2017 06:34 PMPosted by Ghargon
There are no such guilds that identify as a "Normal" raiding guild, but there is a lot of guilds who self-identify as Heroic raiding guilds


Our guild doesn't "identify" by levels of raiding. We are a casual social guild, we do what our members feel like doing at the time. so the idea of removing a tier of raiding just because guilds like ours don't broadcast that we do heroic or mythic raiding is just a bit, well....silly.
to learn the mechanics and get a slight upgrade on gear. most of the time people are overgeared for normal and can do heroic but they don't know the mechanics well so they do normal and for what little upgrades they can get.

raiding isn't just about ilvl it's about mechanics as well thus why they learn it on normal. i don't do ptr but i assume they have the raids open in ptr but most guilds don't run it for practice.
My guild mostly just raids normal. People geniuinely have fun doing so. No need to spoil that just because.
09/18/2017 06:34 PMPosted by Ghargon

There are no such guilds that identify as a "Normal" raiding guild, but there is a lot of guilds who self-identify as Heroic raiding guilds.


There are a ton of guilds and players who identify as "Normal" raiders. I'd say there are more Normal than Heroic raiders across the board. The primary difference is Normal raiding isn't considered a huge achievement for the majority of the community, so most people who are "Normal Raiders" typically don't call themselves that. They either just say raider or consider Normal as regular content, no fancy titles to attach.
Yep, Normal or Heroic should be removed or maybe merged to create an in-between difficulty.

SO there will be LFR, Normal/Heroic, Mythic.

4 levels of difficulty really bloat up the ilvls
How about we don't remove more content?
I raid in a mythic guild we always do a normal run to learn the fights of the new raid before jumping into heroics.

Normal is a very important difficultly for all raiders.
I'd argue to rename LFR to Normal (LFR is an unfitting title for a difficulty), and keep Heroic and Mythic.
Sure, you probably don't see advertisements for "normal raiding guild" in the types of places that more serious raiding guilds advertise.

But you also don't have Blizzard's data, and I bet if you did, it would show that quite a large number of normal raids get run every week, and those raids are more likely to have guildies raiding together than the LFR raids. That's a shared activity that is probably fun for the guild members, good for the guild's sense of community, and I bet in Blizzard's eyes good for the game and their revenues.

I also bet that every season there are people who graduate from having only ever done LFR + normal into trying heroic for the first time. Another purpose served.
Just my server alone (which is pretty dead) has 19 guilds at 9/9 normal and haven't started heroic. A ton more have partial normal clears.

The player skill, attitude, and dedication in this game is a massive distribution.
09/18/2017 06:34 PMPosted by Ghargon
Having Normal difficulty seems very redundant. LFR-only raiders have no interest in Normal (even though the difficulties are about the same) most likely because you cannot queue for it in the same way, and you have to create a premade group in the traditional way.

There are no such guilds that identify as a "Normal" raiding guild, but there is a lot of guilds who self-identify as Heroic raiding guilds. So... what is the point of normal and who is the targeted audience for it? As of now all it seems like is simply one more difficulty for raiders to have to do every week for AP/Legendaries/TF.

4 difficulties for raiding really bloats the raiding infrastructure, and I propose that removing Normal difficulty would lessen the bloat and make a bit more sense.
Basically, remove Normal and then rename the current Heroic difficulty to "Normal", and Mythic to "Heroic"

You don't even have mythic done, assuming this is your main. Lol. Sad.
09/18/2017 06:34 PMPosted by Ghargon
LFR-only raiders have no interest in Normal (even though the difficulties are about the same)


Turn an LFR group for LFR KJ to normal KJ and we'll see how quickly things change.
09/19/2017 12:05 AMPosted by Starxin
09/18/2017 06:34 PMPosted by Ghargon
LFR-only raiders have no interest in Normal (even though the difficulties are about the same)


Turn an LFR group for LFR KJ to normal KJ and we'll see how quickly things change.
Ooo, she got you.
09/18/2017 06:34 PMPosted by Ghargon
There are no such guilds that identify as a "Normal" raiding guild,


My guild is a "Normal" raiding guild. Take your assumptions else where.
So what you want is to remove normal and then make heroic "normal"? Wat
Nope there are Normal Mode guilds out there. To each their own.
My guild has two raid groups: open raid and a progression raid. Our progression team is the one that runs heroic and might dabble in mythic. Our open raid runs normal and might dabble in heroic.
09/18/2017 06:37 PMPosted by Nixxea
Think of it as friends and family difficulty.


This. Normal difficulty gets heavy use in my guild's alt raid, to which every member of the guild, raider or not, is also invited so long as they meet very basic character preparation requirements. Later in a tier we will run early heroic bosses in that raid as well.

We have non-raiders first learning to raid, or who can't actually commit firmly to a schedule. We have people who haven't yet mastered their alts. We sometimes have mains who decide to come just to kick back and relax and have fun, which can be helpful for clearing quickly. It may not be useful to your own guild, OP, but that doesn't mean that no guild finds value in it.
I think we have too many difficulties.
The same boss with 4 different versions is a little bit too derivative, I feel.

Just as one could ask the question "why isn't there a difficulty between LFR and Normal." and find it hard to justify a reason for such a thing to exist.
I find it difficult to justify the purpose of "Normal" between LFR and Heroic currently.

If the existence of a difficulty between LFR and Heroic is justified, why not the existence of a 5th or 6th difficulty between LFR and Normal or Normal and Heroic?

The facts are, Normal and Heroic overlap heavily today. At one point in the past they didn't. They were very different, functionally and formatively for players.

In the past when Normal was "Flex" it had features and systems that Heroic ( in the past Normal) did not offer. The way wings worked, teleporting into the raid from anywhere, loot distribution and lockouts, boss stats & mechanics scaling with # of players, ect.
These all made Flex very different from Normal on a functional level. Not just another peg on a difficulty slider.

Since WoD, that changed. Heroic ( Past Normal) inherited many of Flex's popular features and the reason Flex existed separate from normal had all but disappeared. Throughout WoD the only functional and mechanical difference was that Normal bosses were easier numbers wise than Heroic. During HFC, and into Legion, the Devs made some changes across the various difficulties in which more mechanics were added as you went up in difficulty. Conversely, mechanics were dropped or simply not present when you went down in difficulty. I feel this has had repercussions on design. With Devs feeling pressured to invent unnecessary mechanics simply to clearly separate one difficulty from another in this new way. Or some difficulties feeling all but lifeless after having a key mechanic left out.

Since the changes exiting MoP, I feel Normal and Heroic are no longer necessary as separate difficulties. They overlap greatly and should be consolidated.
09/18/2017 06:34 PMPosted by Ghargon
4 difficulties for raiding really bloats the raiding infrastructure, and I propose that removing Normal difficulty would lessen the bloat and make a bit more sense.
If you're removing difficulties due to bloat the smarter option would be to remove the difficulty that sees the least number of players using it. That would, without any doubt, be Mythic.

09/18/2017 06:34 PMPosted by Ghargon
There are no such guilds that identify as a "Normal" raiding guild, but there is a lot of guilds who self-identify as Heroic raiding guilds.
True, but without Normal where do these guilds get the gear to do Heroic? I don't see them going from lfr to Heroic, yet Heroic is tuned to a certain gear level. That means you either have to increase the lfr loot ilvl, or decrease the requirements for Heroic. Lfr doesn't need better loot given the ease of killing bosses, and making Heroic easier just makes it into Normal.

09/18/2017 06:34 PMPosted by Ghargon
Basically, remove Normal and then rename the current Heroic difficulty to "Normal", and Mythic to "Heroic"
What you're asking is literally to make it the way it was in MoP and Cata. Which I would be totally fine with to be honest, as long as the new "Heroic" has both 10m and 25m options because a fixed 20m size is complete aids (no surprises that there are far, far fewer players doing Mythic now than ever did Heroic prior to SoO).

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