Titanforging is bad for the game. Feedback

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09/15/2017 10:32 AMPosted by Ashania
09/15/2017 10:30 AMPosted by Maveesa
I would have stopped raiding at this point till 7.3.5 without Titanforge... the idea that every run of content I outgear can still give me upgrades is what drives me to continue playing. So I'll upvote titanforge, its a great system for replability.


Grats on being the target-player for this system.
I'd rather play alts than keep redoing the same thing on the main over and over.
Alts are my replayability.


Well honestly thats the same for me too, I've got 5 characters at 928 or higher now that do their weekly heroic runs. Pretty much none of them need the actual 915 gear, I need the forges.
09/15/2017 10:25 AMPosted by Beastiebo
Please with all the reasons you're saying titanforging is justfied. Explain why the very valid point of capping it at 15 ilvl is "BAD".


Thing is, we don't have to say why capping it at 15 is bad. You need to provide a reason that capping it at 15 would be good. The burden of proof is on you since you are the one suggesting a change to the paradigm.

Titanforging, from a design perspective, does to some degree solve the issue of content being progressively nerfed in much the same way that valor upgrades did in previous expansions--it allows player power to gradually creep up such that actual reductions to content difficulty are less necessary. Unlike valor points, it does so via RNG rather than via a deterministic point-buy system, but it's still the same basic result.
09/15/2017 04:48 AMPosted by Aehl
I have never NEVER seen ANY piece of gear titanforge to 955. That is absolute twaddle. Show me one that has.


calling it now "Twaddle" for word of the day, and the challenge use it 3 times in contextual sentences while in a group of randoms today
09/15/2017 04:48 AMPosted by Aehl
However, when something that comes from the easiest difficulty in the game (LFR) titanforges to 915-955


I have never NEVER seen ANY piece of gear titanforge to 955. That is absolute twaddle. Show me one that has.


Check my gloves. Got that baby out of the chest this week
09/15/2017 10:37 AMPosted by Allialara
09/15/2017 10:25 AMPosted by Beastiebo
Please with all the reasons you're saying titanforging is justfied. Explain why the very valid point of capping it at 15 ilvl is "BAD".


Thing is, we don't have to say why capping it at 15 is bad. You need to provide a reason that capping it at 15 would be good. The burden of proof is on you since you are the one suggesting a change to the paradigm.

Titanforging, from a design perspective, does to some degree solve the issue of content being progressively nerfed in much the same way that valor upgrades did in previous expansions--it allows player power to gradually creep up such that actual reductions to content difficulty are less necessary. Unlike valor points, it does so via RNG rather than via a deterministic point-buy system, but it's still the same basic result.


That's valid but in terms of over +15ilvl you can't provide a reason.

My "proof" is that I have no motivation to join and help build up a guild and community thats in normal or heroic content because in 3 weeks I've out geared it and its more efficient to join a mythic guild and join in when someones sick or chain run mythic plus or pug a heroic with other people that are in the same situation. I don't have to commit to anything.

And while you made the valid point that titanforging isn't the sole reason for this its a contributor and since it's the topic of this article, that's what I'm discussing.

"I" as in a generic player

I also dislike personally that if I take the time to learn what stats do and how they benefit my spec/class that it ends up in most cases just being equip the highest ilvl... in a way neither option offers true choice but knowing that versatility and crit are bad and then having those stats on a titan forged piece just seems counter intuitive.
09/15/2017 10:37 AMPosted by Allialara
09/15/2017 10:25 AMPosted by Beastiebo
Please with all the reasons you're saying titanforging is justfied. Explain why the very valid point of capping it at 15 ilvl is "BAD".


Thing is, we don't have to say why capping it at 15 is bad. You need to provide a reason that capping it at 15 would be good. The burden of proof is on you since you are the one suggesting a change to the paradigm.

Titanforging, from a design perspective, does to some degree solve the issue of content being progressively nerfed in much the same way that valor upgrades did in previous expansions--it allows player power to gradually creep up such that actual reductions to content difficulty are less necessary. Unlike valor points, it does so via RNG rather than via a deterministic point-buy system, but it's still the same basic result.


People use burden of proof incorrectly and it makes me sad :(

There are multiple posts about why a cap would be good. We have put forth our (good heavens typing >me) arguments so it is actually your turn to refute them.

Arguments for a cap I would say WF 5 TF 15 and then you make the ilvl increase per difficulty +20

1) it keeps WF and TF in the game
2) it would make balancing raid content on release easier to manage
3) it would keep progression for difficulty to difficulty relevant by allowing one to get an item at close to but not the exact or higher ilvl than the next target difficulty
4) it would cut done on split runs
5) it would cut back on the endless grind feeling that burns people out
6) it would prevent the need for blizz to go back to a one lockout across all difficulties (which is what I would bet anything will end up happening...)

This would also work for m+ preventing people from spamming low keys for loot and providing a reason to push higher keys (something blizz seems keen on doing)
09/15/2017 10:49 AMPosted by Elörian
09/15/2017 10:37 AMPosted by Allialara
...

Thing is, we don't have to say why capping it at 15 is bad. You need to provide a reason that capping it at 15 would be good. The burden of proof is on you since you are the one suggesting a change to the paradigm.

Titanforging, from a design perspective, does to some degree solve the issue of content being progressively nerfed in much the same way that valor upgrades did in previous expansions--it allows player power to gradually creep up such that actual reductions to content difficulty are less necessary. Unlike valor points, it does so via RNG rather than via a deterministic point-buy system, but it's still the same basic result.


People use burden of proof incorrectly and it makes me sad :(

There are multiple posts about why a cap would be good. We have put forth are arguments so it is actually your turn to refute them.

Arguments for a cap I would say WF 5 TF 15 and then you make the ilvl increase per difficulty +20

1) it keeps WF and TF in the game
2) it would make balancing raid content on release easier to manage
3) it would keep progression for difficulty to difficulty relevant by allowing one to get an item at close to but not the exact or higher ilvl than the next target difficulty
4) it would cut done on split runs
5) it would cut back on the endless grind feeling that burns people out
6) it would prevent the need for blizz to go back to a one lockout across all difficulties (which is what I would bet anything will end up happening...)

This would also work for m+ preventing people from spamming low keys for loot and providing a reason to push higher keys (something blizz seems keen on doing)


Also to add it helps with crafted gear relevancy, as well as other non-drop gear since they can't WF/TF
Rogerbrown mentioned in one of the interviews that during their Mythic Avatar/ KJ prog, they had to decide between running 6 heroic split runs (waiting for possible overturned nerfs) and working on progression.

He said that all you could hope for was perhaps a couple lucky warforge/ titanforges, but that wasn't a reliable source of loot for the time spent as just clearing mythic + working on prog.

If you're wasting time on a fight that mechanics are about to massively change (have to rework strategy e.t.c), then there's no point and you might as well be running 6 heroic split runs.

In a sense that made it seem that bashing your head into an overtuned boss is about the same as clearing heroic 6 times hoping for usable gear. Aka they're mostly a waste of time, but at least something is getting done.

TLDR; Clearing heroic 6x is not as good as clearing mythic once.
09/15/2017 10:05 AMPosted by Crepe
09/15/2017 09:58 AMPosted by Akaidian
Anyone can get it *for no good reason* is the point.


However, the net result is that nothing is hurt except "someone got something better than me--NO FAIR!"

I have yet to see any evidence the system damages the game beyond that.


Massive amounts of split runs, nerfing dungeon rewards, losing linear progression in raids, devaluing mythic raid loot that comes from the hardest content in the game, terrible release boss tuning (Mythic EN a joke, Mythic ToS unbeatable on release)...just to name a few.

But yeah dude, the only thing it affects is the elitist jerks that don't think anyone should have as good as gear as them. I'll be prepared for people to harp on the "devaluing mythic loot" comment, because entitlement is rampant on these forums.
Well, they don't like split runs. They have already stated that. They are just not sure how to discourage it without causing problems for everyone.

All those problems you listed affect only a tiny percentage of players.

Mythic raiders, basically. So, yes, to the extent that titanforging is a problem it all, it's a problem for very high levels of progression only.
09/15/2017 10:59 AMPosted by Stroopwafel
Rogerbrown mentioned in one of the interviews that during their Mythic Avatar/ KJ prog, they had to decide between running 6 heroic split runs (waiting for possible overturned nerfs) and working on progression.

He said that all you could hope for was perhaps a couple lucky warforge/ titanforges, but that wasn't a reliable source of loot for the time spent as just clearing mythic + working on prog.

If you're wasting time on a fight that mechanics are about to massively change (have to rework strategy e.t.c), then there's no point and you might as well be running 6 heroic split runs.

In a sense that made it seem that bashing your head into an overtuned boss is about the same as clearing heroic 6 times hoping for usable gear. Aka they're mostly a waste of time, but at least something is getting done.

TLDR; Clearing heroic 6x is not as good as clearing mythic once.


But wait....

Didn't they do split heroic and split mythic runs up to avatar ?
09/15/2017 11:04 AMPosted by Dracairys
But yeah dude, the only thing it affects is the elitist jerks that don't think anyone should have as good as gear as them. I'll be prepared for people to harp on the "devaluing mythic loot" comment, because entitlement is rampant on these forums.


If you're focused on mythic loot being "devalued," it's pretty easy to connect the dots and realize you do care about having gear other people don't.
09/15/2017 04:32 AMPosted by Taeldoriàn
Problem 2: Titanforging means anybody can be at the same power level of a heroic/mythic raider without ever setting foot into a raid.


What are really the odds of someone doing lfr or buying argunite gear to have same ilvl as someone that raids mythic. Like, for real. What are the odds that someone will fill all slots with mythic equivalent titanforged gear?

Pretty much none, right?

Also, mythic raiders will be getting their share of Mythic TF loot as well.
09/15/2017 04:32 AMPosted by Taeldoriàn
This isn't uncommon either,

I disagree. The largest titanforge I have seen in all my many hours of play in Legion has been 30 ilvl. After over a years worth of play and thousands of item drops.
915> 945 is the largest I have personally received.

Titanforges beyond +20 are exceeding rare.
I have had better luck getting a coin to land on heads three times in a row, than getting a +20 titanforge.

09/15/2017 04:32 AMPosted by Taeldoriàn
Anything can TF.

This isn't true. There are a number of rewards that can not titanforge.
Take crafting gear or max level quest rewards.
These can not titanforge.

Also, some items seem to have abysmal chances to TF.
I have rolled 10 trinkets from the Argus vendor, so far. Not one was above the base 910. (Though a few were useful and I am ultimately happy with those trinkets I received. )

09/15/2017 04:32 AMPosted by Taeldoriàn
Titanforging is dragging down the gearing system in WoW a lot.


I disagree. I think it has been an absolutely great addition. The chance that an activity I am doing can provide an upgrade even when the base reward is not an upgrade is wonderful.
I feel like there is a chance of getting a useful reward from running that normal raid or +5 dungeon, even if unlikely, it feel much better for the possibility to exists rather than there to be no chance of receiving a useful reward for participating in such activities. With no possibility of useful rewards, it just makes me want to not participate at all.
09/15/2017 10:32 AMPosted by Ashania
09/15/2017 10:30 AMPosted by Maveesa
I would have stopped raiding at this point till 7.3.5 without Titanforge... the idea that every run of content I outgear can still give me upgrades is what drives me to continue playing. So I'll upvote titanforge, its a great system for replability.


Grats on being the target-player for this system.
I'd rather play alts than keep redoing the same thing on the main over and over.
Alts are my replayability.


Same. But realize there is a spectrum of players in WoW, so the best solutions make everyone happy.

Honestly don't see what was with wrong with the old currency systems though with MoP era WF carrots.

09/15/2017 10:35 AMPosted by Arthurius


How about when all your alts outgear the raid?


Roll more alts or take a content break/farm xmogs.
09/15/2017 09:10 AMPosted by Hellglaive
Umm since when does gear in LFR proc to 955 even with Titanforging? It'll probably proc to at least 915 with probably more on normal/heroic.

I think you are dreadfully wrong there OP. Least with LFR proccing.

Back in NH there was a ret pally with a 925 LFR TF Draught (with a socket too), back when 925 was the TF ceiling.

Literally all he ran was LFR. It became a meme on it's own.
The days of people "staring in awe" at your gear in front of the AH are gone, and good riddance.

Get over it, OP, and move on.
09/15/2017 11:46 AMPosted by Idun
The days of people "staring in awe" at your gear in front of the AH are gone, and good riddance.

Get over it, OP, and move on.

Even when I didn't raid seriously (not like I do now, but I digress), I never thought anything wrong with that.

Why people think that is a bad thing?
09/15/2017 11:11 AMPosted by Paeldryth
09/15/2017 11:04 AMPosted by Dracairys
But yeah dude, the only thing it affects is the elitist jerks that don't think anyone should have as good as gear as them. I'll be prepared for people to harp on the "devaluing mythic loot" comment, because entitlement is rampant on these forums.


If you're focused on mythic loot being "devalued," it's pretty easy to connect the dots and realize you do care about having gear other people don't.


Ah thanks for proving my point. And yes, I do think players that clear the highest difficulty should be awarded accordingly. I realize how mind blowing of a concept this is though.
09/15/2017 06:22 AMPosted by Neryssa
Titanforge should be limited to +15 ilvls above it's default ilvl. In Tomb terms, that's just reaching the next difficulty in ilvl.

Problem solved.

09/15/2017 06:17 AMPosted by Sefferon
I think people complaining about titanforge have an unrealistic view of progression, no one is getting geared up to mythic levels by running easy difficulties and praying for titanforges. Some people might get one or two really lucky procs but those are not common.

I have personally seen people with higher ilvls than me, a 5/9M raider, who didn't even clear heroic.

That was a couple weeks ago, I'd have to check out.


A 940 without even clearing heroic (or doing crazy mythic+)?

He should play the Powerball if that type of person exists.

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