Primary professions are a money pit

General Discussion
There's a reason you have two profession slots.

So that you can combine a production profession with the gathering profession that gets its materials.

The only thing that causes it to cost money is the fact you want to skip out on the time to gather your own resources.

Those players who are putting those mats on the AH went out and invested the time to gather them for that gold. If you think its too high then go and gather it yourself.
10/12/2017 08:08 AMPosted by Brahmina
I don't understand people who buy their mats off the AH

From a practical standpoint: Opportunity cost.

For example, say I need some vanilla mats to craft an old mog item. If I want to buy the mats from the AH, it will cost 1,000g, and if I farm them, it will take 1hr. So the question becomes: If I farm something else for 1hr, how much gold could I make? If I farm legion mats for 1hr, maybe I could make 5k? In that case, it would make a lot more sense to farm 5k of Legion mats and use 1k of that to buy my vanilla mats from the AH.

Time is another factor. If I only have 1hr to play and it would take me 1hr to farm the mats, maybe I'd rather be raiding, doing arenas, or really anything other than farming? In that case, I might value 1hr of my time more than 1k gold, and would choose to buy from the AH.
10/11/2017 06:23 PMPosted by Miralax
Professions. Not the minor stuff like fishing and archaeology but the primary ones like leatherworking and blacksmithing and Tailoring. I have tried tailoring and very quickly it turns into a money pit. So then I tried blacksmithing and again it turns into a money pit. And now I have tried leatherworking and again it turns into a money pit. Now maybe somewhere around a hundred or so levels someone might start making money at it but at least at level 82 I can say that it cost me more to make something then what I can sell it for. For example the material I needed to make a netherweave bag would have sold on the auction house for 60 gold. I was lucky when I got 15 gold out of a netgerweave bag. I had thousands invested in getting my skill up to even make the higher-end bags and there was no way for me to recover the investment. So I've ditched all the primary professions on all of my characters except for my Goblin who I have a 600 + engineering and I've only kept it for role-playing purposes because I think some of the stuff is absolutely hysterical. So I'm trying to figure out what exactly the core issue is with the cost being so extreme and it's absolutely the auction. The auction house ruins the base price of the materials needed to make any given object.

I owned my own business since the mid-to-late 80s and I can always count on my materials being in a certain price range. For example let's just say I'm charging $75 for a job that I would do my material cost is about 20 to $21 and it takes me maybe 45 minutes to do the job. I'm the one that had to put all the money in the equipment that I own and I'm the one that had to be trained on that equipment which took 2 years of a school to do it. And so I make money when I do the job. And this game there is no representation of reality that I can see so far being level 82. If I go to my suppliers and I buy the stuff I need to do the job I spend $21 I take that stuff I produce the job and I sell it for $75. I don't have a problem with people in the auction house being able to sell rare items or uncommon items for exaggerated prices but it's absolutely ridiculous when a bar of copper cost one up to two gold or more. / bar. That is so far outside the realm of reality that it's unbelievable that any comparison could be made to any real economy here. I'm not complaining because what I've done is I'm just going to take mining herbalism or skinning for my primary skills from now on and then that way I'm the guy that's selling the damn materials to make the stuff to begin with. Again I don't mind people being able to make a little bit more money but it's ridiculous the prices charged for freaking copper. Now if you were mining some super rare metal like khorium I absolutely understand why that would be 5000 gold per bar. That stuff is absolutely horrible to try to find. It took me 4 hours to find like 18 bars worth of it. And God bless the people that have the determination to be had it for 4 hours to farm that much of it they deserve every penny they get. But copper is literally falling out of the sky in this game. I can't walk more than 13 feet without tripping over a copper mine. I just don't see how it's overvalued by that much. In my opinion, and take this as you will, some of the base Metals need to just be sold by the suppliers in the game that sell some of the other supplies for whatever. Such as I can buy copper from the supplier. But if I want khorium or some other exotic metal I would have to either go mine it or get it on the auction house. I hope this is making sense it's just absolutely insane that you have to pay exaggerated prices for base metals or base materials like linen or wool. It's just a game but if you're going to have to have some rhyme and reason to it. This doesn't have any Rhyme or Reason to it but that's not what this is. I know price gouging when I see it. I've been in business for a very long time and I've had to deal with people that wanted me to join up with their business and I turned away from it because they price gouge their customers I don't believe in that. Again it's just a game I don't expect them to do anything about this. I'm just ranting here because it's absolutely ridiculous for people to try to spend a bunch of time and money investing in blacksmithing or Tailoring or engineering or any other primary skill like that profession and then try to make any money before level 110 at least in my opinion. I suppose I'll be flamed for this and I probably deserve it but I've been playing this game for a couple months now and in every other game I've played these professions like this can be used to make a little money but not in this game at least not at any level that I've been at. Level 82 blacksmithing and tailoring were costing me way too much money to try to make stuff to even remotely think about making any kind of profit. Flame on Johnny


TLDR, wall of text.

In short, #GITGUD- every prof can make gold.

Here's an example from from a wow reddit I was in last night regarding TSM and shuffles:

https://www.reddit.com/r/woweconomy/comments/75i8nm/tsm_leylight_shuffle_crafting_operation/

This is the string I use:
((4% bloods) + (1.5% dbmarket i:124442) + (98.5% dbmarket i:124441))
Where "bloods" is:
max(max(first(avgbuy(item:124101), dbmarket(item:124101)), first(avgbuy(item:124102), dbmarket(item:124102)), first(avgbuy(item:124103), dbmarket(item:124103)), first(avgbuy(item:124104), dbmarket(item:124104)), first(avgbuy(item:123918), dbmarket(item:123918)), first(avgbuy(item:124113), dbmarket(item:124113)), first(avgbuy(item:124115), dbmarket(item:124115)), first(avgbuy(item:124440), dbmarket(item:124440)), first(avgbuy(item:124437), dbmarket(item:124437))) * 10, max(first(avgbuy(item:123919), dbmarket(item:123919))) * 5, max(first(avgbuy(item:124105), dbmarket(item:124105)), first(avgbuy(item:124441), dbmarket(item:124441))) * 3)
That's the value of one craft of any of the craftables that can proc epic (hence the Chaos Crystal), I just shop for any cloth/leather that is less than 9% the value of that (11.111% is 100/9 but 9% allows some profit margin)

This is just one example of the wealth of information and knowledge that is available for FREE!

I don't understand people who buy their mats off the AH


When you set up groups and operations in TSM, it auto gathers and accounts for profits.

(づ  ̄ ³ ̄)づ
i guess it depends on what sells. I have been crafting and selling two main items lately. I get most of the mats for free so profit is high, altho one item does take 30 days to craft >> The Sky Golem mount. I don't fly around and mine the ore. one could easily do that before realm merging, now its a waste of time ( too many players and too little nodes, slow respawn times in-between)

other item is bags. apparently one can never have enough bags.

both items do take mats however both items can get mats from working your pandaria farm everyday. takes a few mins.

and before anyone mentions it, yes I do make plenty of gold in between crafting these items. but these items add to the gold I make and are easily sold - easy to work farm while waiting in queue.
10/11/2017 06:23 PMPosted by Miralax
I have tried tailoring and very quickly it turns into a money pit. So then I tried blacksmithing and again it turns into a money pit. And now I have tried leatherworking and again it turns into a money pit. Now maybe somewhere around a hundred or so levels someone might start making money at it but at least at level 82 I can say that it cost me more to make something then what I can sell it for.


What you say has been true for 10 years, or however long since the first expansion came out. Everything lower than "latest expansion" recipes loses money. There are very few exceptions.

That is why they made the huge change, starting in WoD and in Legion: you don't have to level professions. You can do all latest-expansion recipes at skill level 1 in the profession.
10/12/2017 07:15 AMPosted by Sorina
A lot of people who balk at paying the AH prices for materials are the "time is money" players. They have a gathering profession that feeds their production profession, or they have alts to feed their main. They're largely self-sufficient.

The people that buy crafting mats on the AH are trading their money for someone else's time. Because they either can't or wont farm the mats themselves.

Time I understand. but come on man....copper is EVERYWHERE and easy to find. 1-3 gold PER bar is absolutely absurd.
"neither is the producer in this terrible system you are advocating."

Thats nonsense and we both know it.
Khorium takes hours to get a few bars together. $1000-5000 per bar is perfectly understandable given its rarity.
I trip over copper walking out the front door of any major city.
What Im advocating...and you know it...is a fair price for base resources...copper, tin, linen, solid rock, etc, etc, etc, etc.
and had you read what I actually have been saying, I said the base resources should be sold by vendors with the rare/obscure stuff being for the AH at whatever unreasonable price people can get for it.
10/12/2017 10:15 AMPosted by Tasha
There's a reason you have two profession slots.

So that you can combine a production profession with the gathering profession that gets its materials.

The only thing that causes it to cost money is the fact you want to skip out on the time to gather your own resources.

Those players who are putting those mats on the AH went out and invested the time to gather them for that gold. If you think its too high then go and gather it yourself.

yeah...I did it. Had blacksmithing and mining. too expensive for all those 'extras' that dont come from mines.
Same thing with engineering. Have mining....too many EXPENSIVE non mining items needed for crafting anything that actually sold.
Its fairly easy to determine who's selling the resources for high prices on the AH based on the responses here.
The reality is that you take a profession to make money. Its that way in real life and should be that way in any game that even remotely wants to simulate any semblance of reality and an economy.
yeah...its a game...but lets not pretend as if paying more for the resources needed to craft an item than the item will sell for itself is even remotely logical.
If one believes that nonsense they arent in tune with how an economy should work and has to in order to continue working.
IF all this gold being passed around were REAL money we'd all learn really quickly that this system doesnt work in its current state.

ask a silver miner some time how much they profit from mining an ounce of silver. How much it costs to process the ore and into bullion. Its a VERY thin line. Since we arent paying our utility bills with WoW gold we can ask any absurd price we want because it doesnt hurt in the least if our item doesnt sell for a year because, again, its a game.

As I said before...this was part of the game i wanted to be able to enjoy, but clearly the AH price gouging ruins that until I get to 110 or some such thing and can get around it.
Well, that or devote 40 hours a week to a silly computer game farming 60gp worth of cloth to make a bag that sells for 14gp in the AH.
10/12/2017 06:14 AMPosted by Miralax
IF this worked like a REAL economy, every BASIC resource would have absolute ceilings on their value....sorry, thats just how it is whether you comprehend that or not.


That's not how "REAL" economy works. Value is based on supply and demand. if there is low supply and high demand price is high. Nothing has an absolute ceiling, real life or in game. If suddenly all of the tea in the world disappeared with the exception of 1 small stock, the price of it would skyrocket and it would be more valuable than gold.

In the industry you worked in parts may have had a ceiling price because that is what that market would bear. But that is definitely not set in some arbitrary way. Someone did a cost analysis and came up with a number. If the stock supply diminished parts would increase in price, if demand for those parts diminished the price would go down. This isn't even touching inflation, which wow has seen an immense amount of.

Older materials in wow are abused by the very few who farm them. There is a very small supply, thus the higher price than normal. The only option you have is not buying at those prices and farming the materials yourself. Aside from that, the value of those older materials aren't based on the item you yourself are crafting. There may be more expensive or rare patterns they are used for or reputation gains or other uses that you are not aware of that inflates their prices.

Sorry, that's just how it is whether you comprehend it or not.
Any given thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

The parts that go into a Porsche do not determine the cars value.
10/12/2017 10:38 AMPosted by Tallywix
10/12/2017 08:08 AMPosted by Brahmina
I don't understand people who buy their mats off the AH

From a practical standpoint: Opportunity cost.

For example, say I need some vanilla mats to craft an old mog item. If I want to buy the mats from the AH, it will cost 1,000g, and if I farm them, it will take 1hr. So the question becomes: If I farm something else for 1hr, how much gold could I make? If I farm legion mats for 1hr, maybe I could make 5k? In that case, it would make a lot more sense to farm 5k of Legion mats and use 1k of that to buy my vanilla mats from the AH.

Time is another factor. If I only have 1hr to play and it would take me 1hr to farm the mats, maybe I'd rather be raiding, doing arenas, or really another other than farming? In that case, I might value 1hr of my time more than 1k gold, and would choose to buy from the AH.
I kind of meant while leveling. Totally understand when someone has more gold than time. That's pretty much why older mats sell for so much. High level characters with gold are leveling their profs and would rather buy the mats. But for a lower level character to do that is insane.
10/12/2017 07:08 PMPosted by Miralax
I trip over copper walking out the front door of any major city.
What Im advocating...and you know it...is a fair price for base resources...copper, tin, linen, solid rock, etc

It sounds like what you want is a communist system instead of an open market.

Scarcity (in terms of rareness in the world) isn't the sole driving factor in price. While copper may be readily available in certain areas (vanilla zones), most players aren't in those areas, and have no desire to travel there. Almost everyone is on Argus and the Broken Shore, and there's no copper there.

It would be like selling sand from the beach for an expensive price at a store in Nebraska and having someone ask "Why is the price so high, there's sand everywhere?" Well, it may be everywhere at the beach, but not in Nebraska. So you can pay a premium for convenience, or take a nice long drive.

Prices are also going to be a bit skewed for you since it sounds like you're new to the game. It's fairly easy to accumulate over a million gold now, but you're running content at a point in the game's history where a few thousand gold would have been a fortune (guessing - it's been awhile since WotLK/Cata). So the content you're running hasn't caught up with inflation yet. Once you hit 110 you'll be able to do things like click a button to run a mission that will give you 2,500g with no effort whatsoever.

Also, to help put end-game costs into perspective, it costs me about 750g each time I want to change my transmog. So paying 2g for a copper bar isn't something I would bat an eyelash at.

I think you'll have a lot more fun with professions at lvl 110, and the costs and profit margins will be much more in line with what you're expecting.
10/12/2017 08:41 PMPosted by Brahmina
...
From a practical standpoint: Opportunity cost.

For example, say I need some vanilla mats to craft an old mog item. If I want to buy the mats from the AH, it will cost 1,000g, and if I farm them, it will take 1hr. So the question becomes: If I farm something else for 1hr, how much gold could I make? If I farm legion mats for 1hr, maybe I could make 5k? In that case, it would make a lot more sense to farm 5k of Legion mats and use 1k of that to buy my vanilla mats from the AH.

Time is another factor. If I only have 1hr to play and it would take me 1hr to farm the mats, maybe I'd rather be raiding, doing arenas, or really another other than farming? In that case, I might value 1hr of my time more than 1k gold, and would choose to buy from the AH.
I kind of meant while leveling. Totally understand when someone has more gold than time. That's pretty much why older mats sell for so much. High level characters with gold are leveling their profs and would rather buy the mats. But for a lower level character to do that is insane.

I see. Yeah, for lower level chars I think it makes a lot more sense to just farm them or wait. No sense in paying the inflated AH prices for old mats without gold funding from a main.
Dem paragraphs... no... no, they're coming this way! Ack! AUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
Max professions is where you'll have the best chance to make some gold. Professions in wow are levelled and tied to their respective expansions. You're just not going to make much (or any?) gold by selling, for example, Cataclysm level crafted items - because there is barely any demand. But the demand for raw mats from Cataclysm (or any other expansion) is usually much higher because other people are either levelling professions the old way and need those mats, or want mats to craft their own things. Because of their scarcity, khorium ore, and titanium are both bottlenecks for levelling Blacksmithing/Engineering/Mining. Hence why the demand, and price for it, is high.

You want to level up your profession to max asap, then look into making gold. Wow-professions has some great guides on how to level your professions quickly.
As others have stated, getting to 110 and leveling up Legion professions is where you'll find money in production professions right now.

Personally, I prefer to be self-sufficient with my professions, which generally means that within a server I have at least 3 toons with the following professions leveled:

Tailoring/Enchanting - This is a rather traditional combination as cloth can be farmed very easily and thread is cheap from NPC vendors in towns. Items made while Tailoring can subsequently be disenchanted to level Enchanting.

Herbalism/Alchemy - Another traditional combination. Leveling Herbalism alone provides more than enough to make Alchemy leveling recipes. All you have to pay for are the empty vials, again obtainable from NPC vendors. This is also the toon that will make the most gold off the AH by selling the fruits of my production at high value.

Mining/Jewelcrafting - This one's a bit less lucrative as combinations go, if only because Jewelcrafting requires a TON of ores for Prospecting gems, and gems don't tend to sell as well as flasks/potions or enchants due to the comparative rarity of gem slots. They're no less easy to level than the other combinations, however, and with sufficient patience (and maybe a glove enchant to make Mining go faster) and a bit of luck you can make some decent gold from selling high-level cut gems.

I do these three particular combinations because they allow me to raid completely without relying on other players, either from my guild or on the Auction House, and I started out as a completely solo player back in the days of Cataclysm. If I'm thinking about staying on a server for awhile, I'll also create a Skinning/Leatherworking toon and an Engineering/Blacksmithing toon, if only so that I can make transmog pieces with BoE recipes (which can't be traded across servers) that I find when I decide to go solo old content stuff.
Welcome to every MMO. I have yet to find an MMO where leveling a tradeskill to max really generates you alot of money. Enchanting and Alchemy prob make more money than any other primary although with any tradeskill the only items you will sell for any amount of money are generally going to be endgame stuff. If you can get to WOD level it is cheap. You can start from 1 and reach 700ish pretty easy.
10/12/2017 06:27 AMPosted by Miralax
10/12/2017 06:18 AMPosted by Bloodidan
Leatherworking is a money pit? Maxed LW on this character, never spent one copper.

alrighty then, Im sure you can explain in detail from level one what you did, step by step, and give me approximate profit margins on items sold while you were leveling up and exactly what items you were making, what prices you were selling for, etc, etc, etc.


You are the definition of low effort, go read on the net. If you are so lazy that you can't research and learn, enjoy never having any gold.

Here's a SS from my main account, this is not including my 2nd AH account; first number is earned, 2nd is earned/day:

https://imgur.com/QScTjYv

Can't stand whiney, entitled brats.

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