Toxic Community vs Devs

General Discussion
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10/24/2017 05:03 AMPosted by Azco
10/24/2017 03:46 AMPosted by Snowfox
Parents set boundaries and rules... kids want to have fun.

So it goes with us and the devs.


Kid's don't pay their parents to entertain them.


I was about to say the same thing. That was a really silly analogy because WE are paying blizzard's bills and supporting THEM, not the other way around as with parents and children.
10/24/2017 08:46 AMPosted by Argorwal
10/24/2017 08:23 AMPosted by Rosco
...

Or they could make the game the way the players want, just an idea. I mean we are the ones who pay to play, why should it be what the devs want. It shouldn't.

The customer is always right lol.


Which players?

The ones that want LFR removed?

The ones that want cross realm anything removed?

The ones that want no faction barrier to anything?

The ones who want gear completely removed from the PvP experience?

Lots of people want completely contradictory things to other people. Going to be hard to make a game both want...

This guy is 100% right. If the devs listen to any one group at the expense of others the game would be a huge turnoff for most people. Take a look at the flying debacle...the devs thought they had found widespread support for no flying and look how that blew up. Personally I'm still pissed about pathfinder and am only giving them one more chance to unfrakk it, which I know is a widely unpopular thought for many others. In this case the customer is always right but since the customer is the entire player base it only matters if every player agrees on something...which is highly unlikely. Just my 5¥ worth.
10/24/2017 06:54 AMPosted by Crepe
10/24/2017 06:45 AMPosted by Pointyends
The usual defence for the fanboys is something to the effect of " Blizzard can't possibly do 'X' ". I haven't bought into that in the past nor do i now. It's not hard to list all of the titanic blunders Blizz has created so i won't go into them here. But what is clear is that the Tall Foreheads at Irvine seem more and more smugly self-assured that they as our betters know what is good for us.


I'm always amazed at this type of commentary.

"titanic blunders"

"fanboys"

"Tall Foreheads"

And you actually expect people to take you and your ideas seriously?

Blizzard, despite your obvious knowing better than they do about apparently everything, is a multi-billion dollar company that puts out A list product and dominates pretty much every category they enter. If you have an idea that you feel would make the game better, talk about it. If you just want to vaguely critique them about literally nothing in particular? You're not as sagely brilliant as you pretend to be.


And it has lost millions of actual players over the years.

Lost.
Negative growth.
Gone.
Moved on.

Now in my line of work if i lose a customer because of poor service that's a very bad thing, if i lose two it's a crisis ,if i lose three then it's game over for me at my job. My company retain our customer by listening to them and making their lives in their own goals easier to accomplish.

And as for the "fanboys" i have no regrets in using that term or any of my others i have no regrets because it is the 'fanboys' who empower Blizzard to go on making stupid mistakes. I didn't list them because i didn't think i had to but if you like i'll provide it for you I've seen your posts on some of them so i'm sure you are aware of them but if a refresher is required i'm here to please. The problem as i have stated in this post as in other is people saying more or less they "can't do 'X' " Which f i'm not mistaken you are more less complaining about me making that complaint. That's too bad, but again i don't regret it because it's that enabling.

I use to think years ago that 'constructive dialogue' meant something. I don;t anymore because at heart i don't Blizzard actually listens. What i do believe is what i've seen. Back in Warlords i remember Blizzard came out with the 'wildly' popular idea of no flying in Draenor, and not only that they wanted to take out flying for any future expansions. They came up with all sorts of wonderful buzz words. Zarhym said we wouldn't want to fly because Warlords was going to be so "savage".

And that went over so well.

What did happen is that people for the lack of a batter term engaged in a digital riot. Tens of thousand of posts over a very short period which to my mind left a very clear message. So clear that even Blizz (those same tall foreheads) Couldn't bury it. Ergo We got flying, we still had to do a silly pathfinder but we got it. And i don't believe we would have got it all unless people had set fire to the forums.

then there was the brilliant idea of having your real identity posted on the forums known as RealID.

Bashiok as i recall as well as others went to the wall saying that this was a great idea that it would something good (somehow) and that we shouldn't worry our sweet little heads about our security or worry about personal information being posted against our will on a open forum. In order to allay our (foolish) concerns Bashiok posted his actual first and last name here on the forums praising the RealID system and that people concerns about privacy were immature and Blizzard knew what they were doing.....
.

And in less than a day people had doxed him and posted all of his personal information. They had his address , his wife's name, the name of the guy who was renting our part of their house, where his kids went to school, his phone number, his email , and then his parents name and address and phone number.

So no i'm not going to make any apologies for my views , nor do i make any apologies for my views on the people who go to the barricades for Blizzard when they have a well known track record for doing just incredibly stupid stupid things. I think i'm correct in that Blizzard doesn't really get it until people for all intents and purposes get in their face.
10/24/2017 09:34 AMPosted by Shadow
10/24/2017 05:03 AMPosted by Azco
...

Kid's don't pay their parents to entertain them.


I was about to say the same thing. That was a really silly analogy because WE are paying blizzard's bills and supporting THEM, not the other way around as with parents and children.

We pay them to provide the challenges and boundaries.

That creates a tension because we then push up against those things.

Blizzard has to do things we don't always like such as timesinks, goldsinks, grinds,etc. Just because we pay them doesn't mean we control them. It means we are within those boundaries they set up for the game.
...
Many things have stood for many years. People ignored the alarms that were going off and said they were doing just fine then one day they sorta stopped existing so that train of thought isn't exactly helpful.


November 2004 Onward. Hasn't died yet.

Are you enjoying playing the mmorpgs in its stead?

I could name dozens of "Wow Killers" that tried to take on the throne but WoW has stood the test of time.

Straw man argument.
10/24/2017 10:12 AMPosted by Zën
...

November 2004 Onward. Hasn't died yet.

Are you enjoying playing the mmorpgs in its stead?

I could name dozens of "Wow Killers" that tried to take on the throne but WoW has stood the test of time.

Straw man argument.

I don't know.. after 13 years of hearing chicken-littles.. of remembering when people in BC (and then wotlk) were proclaiming wow was dead.. of 1000x "trust me's, this will kill wow" claims from posters upset about minor issue X....

I tend to think the straw men arguments are the ones claiming wow is just about to die and we're 'ignoring the alarms'.
10/23/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Wariya
Their game they can do whatever they want with it

You don't like it don't play it....geeezzzz


This 8 year old kid point of view makes me want to vomit when I see it.

Can there be a more conformist, non-opinion-opinion, take the safe road, empty statement that a person can make?

Not to mention that the assumptions behind it are completely untrue.

Together it makes me draw an image of a prepubescent mommas boy who needs authority figures to tell them right from wrong still.

Grow a pair. Have an opinion of your oun.
10/24/2017 10:19 AMPosted by Aubec
10/23/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Wariya
Their game they can do whatever they want with it

You don't like it don't play it....geeezzzz


This 8 year old kid point of view makes me want to vomit when I see it.

Can there be a more conformist, non-opinion-opinion, take the safe road, empty statement that a person can make?

Not to mention that the assumptions behind it are completely untrue.

Together it makes me draw an image of a prepubescent mommas boy who needs authority figures to tell them right from wrong still.

Grow a pair. Have an opinion of your oun.

Sounds like they -did- have an opinion of their own.. and you flamed them for it.
Looks like a definition is needed.

straw man
ˌstrô ˈman/
noun
noun: strawman
1.
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
10/24/2017 05:06 AMPosted by Crepe
10/24/2017 04:10 AMPosted by Bariston
Players give input. Blizzard says "we are listening". Input gets sent to Development. Devs seemingly ignore input and create what they want us to play instead of playing what we asked for in the first place.


That's rather simplistic.

We give a lot of input--much of it cloaked in hate and various and sundry forms of insults. A lot of that input is contradictory because it comes from different people.

The developers do actually create things and adjust things based on input. But it wasn't your input, so you yell at them that they don't listen. Even though they did listen, but they listened to that guy over there.

The overall game is their vision, not ours. And that's a good thing, not a bad thing. Because if it were based on our vision, it'd be a complete and utter disaster with everything simultaneously horrifically overpowered and unable to kill anything.

But, there'd be ducks.


This is utter nonsense.

As was pointed out above, Blizzard only listens when their feet are held to the proverbial financial fire.

Now, I will agree, they should determine what their fans want. Not necessarily to implement, but at a minimum - to address.

And there are ways to do that. Polls, ON THIS SITE, surveys, WHEN YOU LOG IN TO WOW.

But hiding on Twitter, canned Q & A's, losing 54% of your subs over eight years?

That DOESN'T cut it with a responsible business. Instead we get,

"We make the games we like to play, and we invite you to play them".
10/24/2017 08:11 AMPosted by Elae
Developers just react to our feedback...

I mean we didn't like WoD, we said they didn't like it...they've done much better with Legion. End of story.


I think its more of a reaction to the loss of revenue. To lose 1/4 of your player base speaks volume. Legion was a better expansion and saved the WOW brand in the eyes of many. My concern is that with so many successful games, how much attention will WOW get in the future. One must not forget its Activision calling the shots.

One brilliant maneuver on Blizzard's part and have to give them credit for it, was the introduction of tokens. Its a win, win for them. Overnight they became the game's top gold seller, putting a serious dent in the gold farmer's market.
10/24/2017 08:43 AMPosted by Dawnshield
Let me clue you in one something The customer is always an @ss##%#!


Hopefully you don't work in customer service.
The gaming market has changed significantly because of the free-to-play model working so well, which feeds off human psychology. When video games were in their infancy, they were developed by hobbyists and supported by enthusiasts. Once it was realized that such an entity could have commercial value, it was only a matter of time before the optimal path was determined for profit.

What isn't surprising is that the optimal path is one which minimizes development costs and maximizes player monetary input. This functionally speaking reduces to making simple repetitive games the revolve around rewarding players with small regulated endorphin bursts. An endorphin burst that happens pseudo-randomly is likely to require more effort than one that can be optimized, since the only thing you can do to improve your ability to acquire what you want is to keep performing the actions until it happens.

This will turn some players away, however most games designed under this model will make the majority of their money from a few addicted whales. This is why there were no catch-up mechanics introduced in a game like Clash of Clans for example. They need just enough small fish in the game to keep the big fish happy. It is exactly why blizzard has introduced legendaries and TF/WF, its why you see an overall decline in the quality of content, why rolling alts is difficult and why they have increased the effective reset rate of the game. They don't care about having 10 million customers that enjoy their game, they just need 2 million customers addicted enough to pay for player services and re-subs during major game updates like new raid tiers and xpacs.

Combine this knowledge of human psychology with the metric of retained player playtime and you can create a perfect business model to investors which nearly guarantees profit, the base goal of any business.

I don't know if this is good or bad. However, I have witnessed nearly the full development of the video-game industry from Arcades/Atari to now so I have a personal bias for sure. The best I can hope for, I guess, is that a gaming company can stabilize their income by feeding off the weak to have enough spending money to fund "for fun" enterprises. I mean Google for example basically makes their money by selling their personal knowledge of you to people who want to prey on that, but has reached a point that they can diverge meaningful resources into other more philanthropic goals. Its all shades of grey I guess.

TLDR; Games will/are slowly devolving into sophisticated gambling machines as companies optimize their strategies for profit from humans (which average out to predictable animals. I don't exclude myself from this; I am not a unique snowflake), as should be expected.

TTLDR; Procrastinating at work... need coffee... baseless statistics.... dribble
10/23/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Wariya
Their game they can do whatever they want with it

You don't like it don't play it....geeezzzz


10/24/2017 05:06 AMPosted by Crepe
10/24/2017 04:10 AMPosted by Bariston
Players give input. Blizzard says "we are listening". Input gets sent to Development. Devs seemingly ignore input and create what they want us to play instead of playing what we asked for in the first place.


That's rather simplistic.

We give a lot of input--much of it cloaked in hate and various and sundry forms of insults. A lot of that input is contradictory because it comes from different people.

The developers do actually create things and adjust things based on input. But it wasn't your input, so you yell at them that they don't listen. Even though they did listen, but they listened to that guy over there.

The overall game is their vision, not ours. And that's a good thing, not a bad thing. Because if it were based on our vision, it'd be a complete and utter disaster with everything simultaneously horrifically overpowered and unable to kill anything.

But, there'd be ducks.


^ Boom.

</thread>
10/24/2017 03:18 AMPosted by Maxgoblin
A lot of players, say they are players, but they are not. They are just people trolling. It's sad when Developers listen to them.

"We want vanilla! We want old school grouping! Cultures, mingling, forming relationships, bonds, jokes!"
Dev's - Okay, Vanilla queues for Mythics then. /done
Um, those guys that requested this....they don't even play World of WarCraft. They are, right now, auto-queue'ing in their game, laughing at you. All of you. This is dumb.


no, no we play the game. youre awfully imaginative.
10/25/2017 10:50 AMPosted by Balorius
10/23/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Wariya
Their game they can do whatever they want with it

You don't like it don't play it....geeezzzz


10/24/2017 05:06 AMPosted by Crepe
...

That's rather simplistic.

We give a lot of input--much of it cloaked in hate and various and sundry forms of insults. A lot of that input is contradictory because it comes from different people.

The developers do actually create things and adjust things based on input. But it wasn't your input, so you yell at them that they don't listen. Even though they did listen, but they listened to that guy over there.

The overall game is their vision, not ours. And that's a good thing, not a bad thing. Because if it were based on our vision, it'd be a complete and utter disaster with everything simultaneously horrifically overpowered and unable to kill anything.

But, there'd be ducks.


^ Boom.

</thread>
No, the Developers did get caught ignoring input. I'd like to say that it was the first time, but https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/757774836559024128 is proof of them ignoring feedback before.
/lol
Yes Ducks.
No need to share the information about your youtubie history.
The gaming market has changed significantly because of the free-to-play model working so well, which feeds off human psychology. When video games were in their infancy, they were developed by hobbyists and supported by enthusiasts. Once it was realized that such an entity could have commercial value, it was only a matter of time before the optimal path was determined for profit.

What isn't surprising is that the optimal path is one which minimizes development costs and maximizes player monetary input. This functionally speaking reduces to making simple repetitive games the revolve around rewarding players with small regulated endorphin bursts. An endorphin burst that happens pseudo-randomly is likely to require more effort than one that can be optimized, since the only thing you can do to improve your ability to acquire what you want is to keep performing the actions until it happens.
Combine this knowledge of human psychology with the metric of retained player playtime and you can create a perfect business model to investors which nearly guarantees profit, the base goal of any business.

I don't know if this is good or bad. However, I have witnessed nearly the full development of the video-game industry from Arcades/Atari to now so I have a personal bias for sure. The best I can hope for, I guess, is that a gaming company can stabilize their income by feeding off the weak to have enough spending money to fund "for fun" enterprises. I mean Google for example basically makes their money by selling their personal knowledge of you to people who want to prey on that, but has reached a point that they can diverge meaningful resources into other more philanthropic goals. Its all shades of grey I guess.


Correct on all accounts; in other places (eg Las Vegas) they call this gambling.

And it's addictive for the same reasons as drugs/food/sex/jumping out of planes (pleasure neurotransmitter feedback in the brain).

As an enthusiast myself, it's also why the rise of 'mobile gaming' was decried- namely that cheap, throw-away games now have a broad market to suck in people with flash and keep them paying for otherwise shallow gameplay (Candy Crush being the first of many). At that point you aren't making games for enthusiasts, but rather you are making them for a throw-away gaming experience that is more about monitization instead of critical appeal, and it's not unique to video games as well- see 'tent pole' summer blockblusters vs 'art-house movie'.

Blizz flirts with this now too with the realization that Hearthstone and HoTS cost a hell of a lot less to develop than a MMO like WoW, and produce outsized margins. And that's part of the reason WoW will continue to wither on the vine, so to speak.

10/25/2017 10:27 AMPosted by Theaphilia
TLDR; Games will/are slowly devolving into sophisticated gambling machines as companies optimize their strategies for profit from humans (which average out to predictable animals. I don't exclude myself from this; I am not a unique snowflake), as should be expected.
10/24/2017 03:46 AMPosted by Snowfox
Parents set boundaries and rules... kids want to have fun.

So it goes with us and the devs.

Blizzard's not my real dad.
people being toxic is a meme, its just an excuse for devs to push their sjw agenda.

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