YES to Class Balancing (Blizz Poll)

Classic Discussion
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12/05/2017 09:07 AMPosted by Leatherfoot
And I'll be playing a balance druid, with zero desire that Blizzard accommodate my spec choice. It's on *me* to "git gud," play my best and make myself viable.


So are you in favor of the druid patch or do you want to be a forever marginalized spec?


If you look at the totality of content available at level 60, balance druids had plenty to do that they were good at. Besides, balance druids in 1.12 were also viable in raids, if you put in the time. The only real marginalization came from human biases, particularly raid leaders. This example isn't Vanilla exactly, but it's apropos: I remember being denied by a Black Morass pug in TBC when it was the heroic daily. Apparently, I didn't bring CC, and so the group leader passed on me in favor of a mage who could sheep. It didn't matter that I *actually* had two forms of CC to a mage's one.

I'm strongly in favor of Blizzard leaving the classes the way they were. It's Vanilla WoW, I'm not entitled to anything. If that means I raid with a handicap, that just means I have to make up for it in other areas to be viable -- but the fact remains that I *can* be viable. I'll be "marginalized" by tunnel-visioned raid leaders that want to micro optimize spec choice while ignoring more important factors. They'll get what they deserve.
I wouldn't even consider joining a guild that marginalizes certain specs.

If player is dedicated, has brain and works as much as he can to be viable, then he is viable.

If you want to be boomkin, go for it! You have to put in more effort but that 3% crit bonus is lovely for all healers and casters. You can also innervate, give improved thorns and battle rez.

Don't listen to idiots... If you want to top damage meters then this game is not for you! If you want to be useful to the raid and that's all that matters to you, then come join in.
The only real marginalization came from human biases, particularly raid leaders.


Yes, marginalization came from players. But it was based on how quantifiably bad the balance tree was. I played feral, so I know what it took to make yourself viable. But why does it have to be an issue in the first place? If the solution existed in vanilla, why not eliminate the problem?

Unless hybrid hate was an essential part of the vanilla experience? That would be sad.
You choose to play a hybrid class, a jack of all trades master of none... don't expect to be as good at the role as someone who cannot do it all. While it is true as a ret pally if you are trying to join the absolute top tier guilds you probably won't get in, most guilds outside of that small niche will happily take you along. However this mentality that "I play pally so I should be able to do everything as well as everyone else!" is stupid and a waste of time, if you want to be able to MT but top dps charts when it suits you, level 2 characters. playing a hybrid class shouldn't enable you to do whatever you want, they had their own purpose.. why try and change that.
12/05/2017 10:36 AMPosted by Arbitratîon
You choose to play a hybrid class, a jack of all trades master of none... don't expect to be as good at the role as someone who cannot do it all.


Great then explain Warriors and Hunters. Why is a hybrid class top DPS? Why does a pure DPS class do mediocre DPS?
12/05/2017 10:17 AMPosted by Leatherfoot
But why does it have to be an issue in the first place? If the solution existed in vanilla, why not eliminate the problem?

Unless hybrid hate was an essential part of the vanilla experience? That would be sad.
You say hate, I say difference of philosophy.

Raid damage throughput as the only metric for relative usefulness and more generally as 'viability' is a modern construct. And it's flawed. Devaluing or ignoring the value of utility is what led to the homogenization of classes in the first place. Ignoring what a spec is good at in other situations to advocate for narrow raid damage buffs is the definition of ignorant.

Ask yourself this: Is X spec (in this case Balance) bad at EVERYTHING? If the answer is YES, then I am all for class balance.
12/05/2017 10:41 AMPosted by Fremmi
12/05/2017 10:36 AMPosted by Arbitratîon
You choose to play a hybrid class, a jack of all trades master of none... don't expect to be as good at the role as someone who cannot do it all.


Great then explain Warriors and Hunters. Why is a hybrid class top DPS? Why does a pure DPS class do mediocre DPS?


Hunters still bring plenty of utility to a group, their problem isn't about class problems so much as itemization problems, and they still are very useful to have in raids, just like every other class. And yes warriors are strong, but they are not "hybrid" in the sense most people argue. If you want to play 1 class and do every role as well as others that are tailored to that role you should probably just avoid the game instead of trying to change it. Play a class that can do the things you enjoy don't try to turn everything into a cookie cutter "Oh I hit things hard, but now I can heal just as hard and tank harder!" I have played pally since the game released because it is what I enjoy, will I ever top charts in classic, probably not. but the versatility you bring is where you shine. Some of the strongest buffs in the game, decent damage output, ability to throw some heals as required, and in a pinch can even take a slight beating. They were made to pop in when required for the situation, not be the allstar.
12/05/2017 11:00 AMPosted by Arbitratîon
And yes warriors are strong, but they are not "hybrid" in the sense most people argue.


Wrong. But let's pretend you're right and hybrid only means classes that are supposed to be able to tank, heal, and DPS. Why aren't shaman and priest given top DPS? They, just like warriors, only have two roles available to them.

I don't think you've thought through your argument very well. You certainly haven't put any thought into addressing the other side's argument, you just put words in my mouth and called it a day.
12/05/2017 12:26 PMPosted by Fremmi
12/05/2017 11:00 AMPosted by Arbitratîon
And yes warriors are strong, but they are not "hybrid" in the sense most people argue.


Wrong. But let's pretend you're right and hybrid only means classes that are supposed to be able to tank, heal, and DPS. Why aren't shaman and priest given top DPS? They, just like warriors, only have two roles available to them.

I don't think you've thought through your argument very well. You certainly haven't put any thought into addressing the other side's argument, you just put words in my mouth and called it a day.
\

Are you trying to claim that warriors are top dps? because you are wrong in most cases, that goes to rogue/mage. Warriors do decent dps with little to no versatility in raids. Shamans I consider hybrid because they can heal/rdps/mdps, but your argument seems to be under the assumption that warriors are like the best dps? shamans and priests can dps decently if they want although Priests have a clearly defined place (just like warriors). once again coming back to, if you want every class to do everything as well as others, they lose uniqueness and damage the game as an RPG.

You have the very narrow mentality that all that matters for a class is the amount of damage they can put out. a dps shaman will not top the charts but they bring insane buffs to the rest of the group. what does a dps warrior bring besides battleshout?
12/05/2017 12:57 PMPosted by Arbitratîon
12/05/2017 12:26 PMPosted by Fremmi
...

Wrong. But let's pretend you're right and hybrid only means classes that are supposed to be able to tank, heal, and DPS. Why aren't shaman and priest given top DPS? They, just like warriors, only have two roles available to them.

I don't think you've thought through your argument very well. You certainly haven't put any thought into addressing the other side's argument, you just put words in my mouth and called it a day.
\

Are you trying to claim that warriors are top dps? because you are wrong in most cases, that goes to rogue/mage. Warriors do decent dps with little to no versatility in raids. Shamans I consider hybrid because they can heal/rdps/mdps, but your argument seems to be under the assumption that warriors are like the best dps? shamans and priests can dps decently if they want although Priests have a clearly defined place (just like warriors). once again coming back to, if you want every class to do everything as well as others, they lose uniqueness and damage the game as an RPG.

You have the very narrow mentality that all that matters for a class is the amount of damage they can put out. a dps shaman will not top the charts but they bring insane buffs to the rest of the group. what does a dps warrior bring besides battleshout?


As a shaman main on private servers and a future shaman main on Classic, I couldnt agree more. Leave my shaman alone.
12/05/2017 12:57 PMPosted by Arbitratîon
Are you trying to claim that warriors are top dps? because you are wrong in most cases, that goes to rogue/mage. Warriors do decent dps with little to no versatility in raids.


Mid-BWL Warrior scaling shoots up insanely and they take over top DPS by a large margin. Other classes pick up in Naxx, but Warriors remain competitive enough that they are still taken explicitly to fill DPS slots even in Naxx. Guilds forced Warriors to respec Fury to fill DPS slots because they didn't want more tanks and needed classes with high DPS. Once Warriors become competitive DPS in Vanilla WoW, and they do, they stay there.

Beyond that, hybrids geared for DPS also have little to no versatility in raids. They can cast a few token heals at best before going OOM and having their DPS drop to nil. Effectively they can emulate a Warlock's Healthstone except for that part where the Warlock's DPS isn't hurt in the slightest by someone using a stone, and DPS gear generally requires hybrids to equip items that make them every bit as fragile, if not moreso, than pure DPS classes. Yes they can switch gear and fill another role to an extent... but Warriors with another set can also switch gear and fill MT/OT roles regardless of spec so even that doesn't distinguish them from hybrids.

12/05/2017 12:57 PMPosted by Arbitratîon
I consider hybrid because they can heal/rdps/mdps


Now your definition of hybrid leaves out Priests and Paladins. Why aren't they exempt from the hybrid tax?

There's no way to define "hybrid" to exclude Warriors while including every other class capable of filling multiple roles that simultaneously explains why Hunters apparently also suffer for their "utility" despite it not factoring into their role in raids.

Vanilla had bad class and spec balance. If you want vanilla with unchanged balance, you want bad class and spec balance. If people were just honest about that these discussions would move along a lot faster.

12/05/2017 12:57 PMPosted by Arbitratîon
if you want every class to do everything as well as others, they lose uniqueness and damage the game as an RPG.

You have the very narrow mentality that all that matters for a class is the amount of damage they can put out.


There you go putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say damage was the most important thing, I didn't say I want every class to do everything equally well as all the others, I didn't actually express a single opinion. All I did is ask you why a hybrid class, capable of filling more than just a DPS role, does top DPS while a pure DPS class does mediocre DPS.

As for "lose uniqueness and damage the game," you cannot deny that it's damaging for an MMORPG to have 3 of 9 classes make up 50% of all characters. Any claim you have that having bad balance leads to uniqueness is tossed out the door by the absolute horrid class diversity that comes from no further balance changes.

Because we know those 3 classes happen to be the 3 classes that do the highest DPS through the vast majority of content, we know that is what the vanilla playerbase values far and away above any of the ancillary considerations you claim make bad class balance secretly actually good. You can look at the data yourself, it tells the story pretty clearly.
12/05/2017 03:54 PMPosted by Fremmi
12/05/2017 12:57 PMPosted by Arbitratîon
Are you trying to claim that warriors are top dps? because you are wrong in most cases, that goes to rogue/mage. Warriors do decent dps with little to no versatility in raids.


Mid-BWL Warrior scaling shoots up insanely and they take over top DPS by a large margin. Other classes pick up in Naxx, but Warriors remain competitive enough that they are still taken explicitly to fill DPS slots even in Naxx. Guilds forced Warriors to respec Fury to fill DPS slots because they didn't want more tanks and needed classes with high DPS. Once Warriors become competitive DPS in Vanilla WoW, and they do, they stay there.

Beyond that, hybrids geared for DPS also have little to no versatility in raids. They can cast a few token heals at best before going OOM and having their DPS drop to nil. Effectively they can emulate a Warlock's Healthstone except for that part where the Warlock's DPS isn't hurt in the slightest by someone using a stone, and DPS gear generally requires hybrids to equip items that make them every bit as fragile, if not moreso, than pure DPS classes. Yes they can switch gear and fill another role to an extent... but Warriors with another set can also switch gear and fill MT/OT roles regardless of spec so even that doesn't distinguish them from hybrids.

12/05/2017 12:57 PMPosted by Arbitratîon
I consider hybrid because they can heal/rdps/mdps


Now your definition of hybrid leaves out Priests and Paladins. Why aren't they exempt from the hybrid tax?

There's no way to define "hybrid" to exclude Warriors while including every other class capable of filling multiple roles that simultaneously explains why Hunters apparently also suffer for their "utility" despite it not factoring into their role in raids.

Vanilla had bad class and spec balance. If you want vanilla with unchanged balance, you want bad class and spec balance. If people were just honest about that these discussions would move along a lot faster.

12/05/2017 12:57 PMPosted by Arbitratîon
if you want every class to do everything as well as others, they lose uniqueness and damage the game as an RPG.

You have the very narrow mentality that all that matters for a class is the amount of damage they can put out.


There you go putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say damage was the most important thing, I didn't say I want every class to do everything equally well as all the others, I didn't actually express a single opinion. All I did is ask you why a hybrid class, capable of filling more than just a DPS role, does top DPS while a pure DPS class does mediocre DPS.

As for "lose uniqueness and damage the game," you cannot deny that it's damaging for an MMORPG to have 3 of 9 classes make up 50% of all characters. Any claim you have that having bad balance leads to uniqueness is tossed out the door by the absolute horrid class diversity that comes from no further balance changes.

Because we know those 3 classes happen to be the 3 classes that do the highest DPS through the vast majority of content, we know that is what the vanilla playerbase values far and away above any of the ancillary considerations you claim make bad class balance secretly actually good. You can look at the data yourself, it tells the story pretty clearly.


You people gotta stop arguing with players who actually know what they are talking about and PLAYED what they are talking about. Hybrids are fine, you need to adapt or go back to retail. You are just afraid you wont get into a raid cause you arent playing the "fotm" class right? Trust me, if you dont get into a raid, its not your class/spec, so if you're actually a good player, go ahead and play ret/ench, you should have nothing to worry about. Yes, more people gravitate towards rogues and warriors, but guess what, that also means far, far far more competition for raid spots for those players. As a shaman, even ench, you will have an easier time getting into a raid than if you were one of the other million other cookie cutter warriors/rogues.

Also sorry bud, its not "bad" balance considering balance is subjective. To me and many other people, this is "balanced" We like our hybrids the way they are.
Blizzard cant balance live with all the mechanisms they created to balance and all their promises that they could balance if we just swallow these new changes and nerfs and garbage....

Why In the he11 would we want them to be given a hand to "try" to balance classic wow.
no
My question is how are you gonna balance the class?

Exemple: During vanilla rogue was one of the best dps because they didn't bring much outside of that to the raid. No buff, only disarm trap and picklock if i wanna be generous. So now you want to buff retpaladin to do the same damage. What do you think is going to happen? People are only gonna bring retpaladin to dps because they will be doing the same damage but will have buff and utility.

The reason all class became pretty much the same after 3-4 expansion is because blizzard had the mentality that every class should be able to do almost everything other class can do for the same role. Paladin can't tank raid boss? Give them taunt! Boomkin is not doing enough damage? Buff them! Rogue don't have any good AoE? Give them one! Your class don't have an interrupt? Now it does! Eventually all class had the same abilites but some still had better buff and utility than other so they started removing buff from the game and now we have legion.

If you start doing that to classic, the same thing is going to happen to it.
11/15/2017 12:09 AMPosted by Akaidian
And be sure to vote YES for class balancing.

Class balancing how it was in classic, yes. :)
Looks like the purists are smaller in number than they claim.

YES to minor class and spec balance in the form of number tweaks but not overhauls.
12/05/2017 06:00 PMPosted by Xerash
Looks like the purists are smaller in number than they claim.

YES to minor class and spec balance in the form of number tweaks but not overhauls.

A poll where barely anyone voted, on a forum where barely anyone (especially relative to the amount of players) posts. Sounds legit.
12/05/2017 06:00 PMPosted by Xerash
Looks like the purists are smaller in number than they claim.

YES to minor class and spec balance in the form of number tweaks but not overhauls.

That's probably because the majority of people who would return for a server isn't going to post here. There's no need to balance the classes, Blizzard is already taking risks by making the server. Screwing with what worked is only going to make that worse.

You played the class, not the spec.
12/05/2017 06:06 PMPosted by Dendritus

A poll where barely anyone voted, on a forum where barely anyone (especially relative to the amount of players) posts. Sounds legit.
It's even more skewed than that. That reddit is extremely anti-Classic. Go to Texas and poll them on abortion and you're going to get really distorted results. Go to San Francisco and ask them about gun control. Of course the results aren't going to be accurate.

But none of this matters. Blizz's intent is to recreate the exact Vanilla experience. That's what this is all about. If they deviate from that...then what's the point? Alienate and drive off the target audience trying to appease tourists who will never be satisfied and will leave soon after anyway? This is common sense stuff, and Blizzard are pretty damn good business people.

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