I don't understand Sylvanas

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10/18/2017 02:38 AMPosted by Fiznazzle
10/18/2017 02:33 AMPosted by Cyndilou
But I am willing to bet you ALL have a connection with SOME NPC in game to the same degree, for personal reasons, as well."


Maybe we just connect with Genn.

"Well, if it's any consolation, I don't want Genn killed off either."
When Sylvanas eventually passes on I get to keep her Bow
10/18/2017 02:39 AMPosted by Cyndilou
10/18/2017 02:38 AMPosted by Fiznazzle
...

Maybe we just connect with Genn.

"Well, if it's any consolation, I don't want Genn killed off either."


Gonna be honest. I was joking. I dont know any character I have a connection with, but I was sadly bummed when Varian died. At least when watching the cutscene.
The magics involved in creating Forsaken and other Undead like them twists the mind and fundamentally changes the character of the person being raised. There really is no reason for the Forsaken to repopulate other than to try and save Sylvanas from her fate. Those dead are better left off dead to rest in peace. Instead, she raises and damns them for her own selfish gain. Does it make sense? Not to anyone but her.
10/18/2017 01:25 AMPosted by Fiznazzle
10/18/2017 01:19 AMPosted by Stéampunk
so give her a break.


Or we could continue wanting Syl dead and she can give these threads a break.

Saying she's a little over zealous is an understatement. She's the perfect arrow for Syl's quiver.


If anyone thinks I WANT to make Cyndi or anybody else feel like crap when I post in these threads, believe me, I don't. I just want to say what I'm feeling, and as mentioned I'm not the only one feeling this way.

But if complaints about how Sylvanas has literally gotten away with murder and worse upset some people, am I obligated to shut up? Am I a jerk if I don't, if I just resign myself to accepting things in the game the way they are without providing feedback that maybe, hopefully, the devs will take into account when deciding where to take the story next?

I doubt Cyndi's crazy about Jaina right now, and if I'm right then it's something we agree on. I don't like the current anti-Horde Jaina either. But she has a lot of fans, Jaina does, just like Sylvanas. So is Cyndi then obligated to avoid saying anything bad about Jaina or Jaina's actions?

Another character who's done some pretty screwed up stuff and whom opinions are divided on: Illidan. Personally, I have been a fan of Illidan for 15 years. I liked him a lot in WC3. I hated what I considered character derailment in BC, where he started acting like a cruel tyrant and we were tasked with killing him. Now he's back, and I'd be lying if I said I was 100% satisfied with how he's been handled since. I would have preferred it if he had acknowledged the wrongness of his prior actions instead of being like "It was all necessary". No, it wasn't. But I am still a fan, because in this xpac he's fighting on our side and afaik hasn't done anything truly awful.

So speaking as someone who likes Illidan when it's all said and done, do I want everyone who hates him to shut up?

Okay, I would rather people didn't say stuff like Panser did in her reaction vid to "Rejection Of The Gift", where she was like "OMG, how dare that bastard kill Xe'ra, do it Turalyon, kill him!"

But if anyone posted on here and said "Hey, don't say bad things about Illidan. You're upsetting Stivers. Give him a break," that would not be a reasonable request.

TL;DR: I am truly sorry if my posts make Cyndi feel bad. I don't understand why she views Sylvanas so positively, but she's seemed like a nice person and I don't want to hurt nice people. Still, I should be able to say how I feel about this character without anybody laying a guilt trip on me or telling me to stop.

ETA: Oops, forgot to switch back to Stivers. Oh well.
Looks like another civil war raid....
undercity here we come.
10/18/2017 03:11 AMPosted by Lentas
10/18/2017 01:25 AMPosted by Fiznazzle
...

Or we could continue wanting Syl dead and she can give these threads a break.

Saying she's a little over zealous is an understatement. She's the perfect arrow for Syl's quiver.


If anyone thinks I WANT to make Cyndi or anybody else feel like crap when I post in these threads, believe me, I don't. I just want to say what I'm feeling, and as mentioned I'm not the only one feeling this way.

But if complaints about how Sylvanas has literally gotten away with murder and worse upset some people, am I obligated to shut up? Am I a jerk if I don't, if I just resign myself to accepting things in the game the way they are without providing feedback that maybe, hopefully, the devs will take into account when deciding where to take the story next?

I doubt Cyndi's crazy about Jaina right now, and if I'm right then it's something we agree on. I don't like the current anti-Horde Jaina either. But she has a lot of fans, Jaina does, just like Sylvanas. So is Cyndi then obligated to avoid saying anything bad about Jaina or Jaina's actions?

Another character who's done some pretty screwed up stuff and whom opinions are divided on: Illidan. Personally, I have been a fan of Illidan for 15 years. I liked him a lot in WC3. I hated what I considered character derailment in BC, where he started acting like a cruel tyrant and we were tasked with killing him. Now he's back, and I'd be lying if I said I was 100% satisfied with how he's been handled since. I would have preferred it if he had acknowledged the wrongness of his prior actions instead of being like "It was all necessary". No, it wasn't. But I am still a fan, because in this xpac he's fighting on our side and afaik hasn't done anything truly awful.

So speaking as someone who likes Illidan when it's all said and done, do I want everyone who hates him to shut up?

Okay, I would rather people didn't say stuff like Panser did in her reaction vid to "Rejection Of The Gift", where she was like "OMG, how dare that bastard kill Xe'ra, do it Turalyon, kill him!"

But if anyone posted on here and said "Hey, don't say bad things about Illidan. You're upsetting Stivers. Give him a break," that would not be a reasonable request.

TL;DR: I am truly sorry if my posts make Cyndi feel bad. I don't understand why she views Sylvanas so positively, but she's seemed like a nice person and I don't want to hurt nice people. Still, I should be able to say how I feel about this character without anybody laying a guilt trip on me or telling me to stop.

ETA: Oops, forgot to switch back to Stivers. Oh well.


Stivers I was not trying to make you feel guilty and I apologize you do seem like a nice person and I wasn't just directing it towards you personally. I just know Cyndilou and she is a fantastic person and I just didn't want to see her being singled out in this post for sticking up for Sylvanas. Again if you thought I was shaming you that wasn't my intent.

/highfour
10/18/2017 12:14 AMPosted by Cyndilou
You don't like Forsaken, DON'T PLAY ONE!!! BUT LEAVE THE REST OF US ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


Your faction is trying to turn all the rest of us into your faction. You don't get to say "live and let live" when you're undead.
10/18/2017 03:18 AMPosted by Stéampunk
<span class="truncated">...</span>

If anyone thinks I WANT to make Cyndi or anybody else feel like crap when I post in these threads, believe me, I don't. I just want to say what I'm feeling, and as mentioned I'm not the only one feeling this way.

But if complaints about how Sylvanas has literally gotten away with murder and worse upset some people, am I obligated to shut up? Am I a jerk if I don't, if I just resign myself to accepting things in the game the way they are without providing feedback that maybe, hopefully, the devs will take into account when deciding where to take the story next?

I doubt Cyndi's crazy about Jaina right now, and if I'm right then it's something we agree on. I don't like the current anti-Horde Jaina either. But she has a lot of fans, Jaina does, just like Sylvanas. So is Cyndi then obligated to avoid saying anything bad about Jaina or Jaina's actions?

Another character who's done some pretty screwed up stuff and whom opinions are divided on: Illidan. Personally, I have been a fan of Illidan for 15 years. I liked him a lot in WC3. I hated what I considered character derailment in BC, where he started acting like a cruel tyrant and we were tasked with killing him. Now he's back, and I'd be lying if I said I was 100% satisfied with how he's been handled since. I would have preferred it if he had acknowledged the wrongness of his prior actions instead of being like "It was all necessary". No, it wasn't. But I am still a fan, because in this xpac he's fighting on our side and afaik hasn't done anything truly awful.

So speaking as someone who likes Illidan when it's all said and done, do I want everyone who hates him to shut up?

Okay, I would rather people didn't say stuff like Panser did in her reaction vid to "Rejection Of The Gift", where she was like "OMG, how dare that bastard kill Xe'ra, do it Turalyon, kill him!"

But if anyone posted on here and said "Hey, don't say bad things about Illidan. You're upsetting Stivers. Give him a break," that would not be a reasonable request.

TL;DR: I am truly sorry if my posts make Cyndi feel bad. I don't understand why she views Sylvanas so positively, but she's seemed like a nice person and I don't want to hurt nice people. Still, I should be able to say how I feel about this character without anybody laying a guilt trip on me or telling me to stop.

ETA: Oops, forgot to switch back to Stivers. Oh well.


Stivers I was not trying to make you feel guilty and I apologize you do seem like a nice person and I wasn't just directing it towards you personally. I just know Cyndilou and she is a fantastic person and I just didn't want to see her being singled out in this post for sticking up for Sylvanas. Again if you thought I was shaming you that wasn't my intent.

/highfour


Ok, glad to have things cleared up. :)
10/18/2017 03:21 AMPosted by Charliestrom
10/18/2017 12:14 AMPosted by Cyndilou
You don't like Forsaken, DON'T PLAY ONE!!! BUT LEAVE THE REST OF US ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


Your faction is trying to turn all the rest of us into your faction. You don't get to say "live and let live" when you're undead.


Well, it depends how those undead are acting. Like if they aren't actually doing the sort of stuff like they did in Andorhal and are leaving well enough alone, it's good if the Alliance does the same.

You might notice that I tend to complain about Sylvanas and the apothecaries instead of all Forsaken. This is because some of them apart from her and the apothecaries don't seem so bad based on their in-game actions. Like okay, *maybe* they do rotten stuff we aren't witness to, but there's really no way to be positive.

And we've seen Forsaken who decided NOT to blindly follow Sylvanas no matter what she ordered. So they do exist.
10/18/2017 12:20 AMPosted by Stéampunk
Gallywix was way worse than Sylvanas imo, if you haven't done the Goblin starting area than i suggest you go. You will awestruck at the atrocities of Gallwix.


Forcing you into slavery, bankruptcy, and then later trying to have you killed is hardly comparable to damning your soul for eternity and still commit the former slavery and killing crimes towards the living, among other horrible things. Gallywix is a bastard but he's not Sylvanas, not even close.
Lillian Voss is probably one of the few undead I actually like, Im sad she doesn't seem to get much screentime in legion. although i don't think i finished the whole campaign.

She understands that this is not a gift, no one chooses to become undead and that it is a curse, and she says as much when you meet her in Scholomance where you find her fighting Gandling.

"I won't let you curse another soul with this nightmare!"
She died and found out the awful truth about the afterlife. Now she's just trying to save you all from the same fate. You can thank her later.
10/18/2017 07:06 AMPosted by Hexecution
She died and found out the awful truth about the afterlife. Now she's just trying to save you all from the same fate. You can thank her later.

"I LOVE the way you put that."
/hugs
10/18/2017 12:33 AMPosted by Stivers
I've heard good things about Tehd. I'll vote for him, sure.
With Class order halls being fairly prominent; you'll have to bring a very convincing platform to the Black Harvest if you want them to give up such a Gem as Tehd.
10/18/2017 07:06 AMPosted by Hexecution
She died and found out the awful truth about the afterlife. Now she's just trying to save you all from the same fate. You can thank her later.
That... is an interpretation. However my takeaway is more toward; she is willing to do anything to spare herself from returning to that hell. Raise and sacrifice ever, exponentially increasing Valkyr on each subsequent death? Even though it only puts them in her place in said hell? Done.

Raise more Forsaken; cursing souls to the exact fate she's trying to avoid so that she has a blindly obedient army to possibly protect her? Done.

There is zero altruistic motive here; and I wouldn't even bat an eye in surprise if Sylv herself extinguished the Forsaken at the very chance that doing so will postpone her own end.

The Forsaken are not her friends, they are her tools.
10/18/2017 07:06 AMPosted by Hexecution
She died and found out the awful truth about the afterlife. Now she's just trying to save you all from the same fate. You can thank her later.


This might be the most in denial thing I have ever read. People don't go to the same place Sylvanas went when she died, the only other person she saw there was Arthas. It's because both are evil.
Greed and narcissism, selfishness. its not hard to understand.

She saw what awaited her in the afterlife, and she wants to avoid it. She will do whatever she can to prevent herself from facing true death, no what the cost is for others. The forsaken are arrows in her quiver, a means to an end. They were expendable when she wanted to kill Arthas, and they are disposable now when she needs a meat shield to protect herself.

She wanted to kill her sister and her children, she wanted to inflict on them the pain she suffered and doom them to a life of undeath as her only way of ever letting them be together again. She tortures innocent people, has them turned into abominations, has experiments done on people.

Its said there is no good or evil, only different points of view, so perhaps she is not "evil" but she is a cruel, selfish, and narcissistic individual, iv lost all sympathy from when i first met her character to when her true colors were shown. it would be better for her to be put down, as i see it would be unlike her to change at this point.
10/18/2017 07:14 AMPosted by Acteon
10/18/2017 12:33 AMPosted by Stivers
I've heard good things about Tehd. I'll vote for him, sure.
With Class order halls being fairly prominent; you'll have to bring a very convincing platform to the Black Harvest if you want them to give up such a Gem as Tehd.
10/18/2017 07:06 AMPosted by Hexecution
She died and found out the awful truth about the afterlife. Now she's just trying to save you all from the same fate. You can thank her later.
That... is an interpretation. However my takeaway is more toward; she is willing to do anything to spare herself from returning to that hell. Raise and sacrifice ever, exponentially increasing Valkyr on each subsequent death? Even though it only puts them in her place in said hell? Done.

Raise more Forsaken; cursing souls to the exact fate she's trying to avoid so that she has a blindly obedient army to possibly protect her? Done.

There is zero altruistic motive here; and I wouldn't even bat an eye if Sylv herself extinguish the Forsaken at the very chance that doing so will postpone her own end.

The Forsaken are not her friends, they are her tools.


Exactly this. Sylvanas only cares for herself and the Forsaken are nothing more than a meat shield to protect her. With the exception of Nathanos who is her human/undead boy toy.

If she was given the choice to sacrifice all the Forsaken and in return she was guaranteed even 10 years of life where she couldn't die she would do it. That's her end goal, immortality for herself.
10/18/2017 07:18 AMPosted by Kristiara
She wanted to kill her sister and her children


10/18/2017 07:18 AMPosted by Kristiara
and her children,


"If you actually READ the War Crimes story you will see, that she stopped when it came to the children. That is a line she will NOT cross. It's also the reason she did not turn her Sister. She refused to leave the Children with out their Mother."

"Know your lore."
Don't forsaken live forever unless killed? Why doesn't she just resurrect the forsaken that get killed instead of making new ones? I'm sure some of them would be unrezzable due to death by holy vaporization/etc, but probably not many.

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