Horde are the villians. Accept it.

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11/12/2017 10:03 AMPosted by Azrael
If the Horde doesn't want to be considered the evil faction, then they seriously need to consider the idea of kicking the Forsaken out of the faction entirely. Getting right down to it, the "Horde is evil" stuff comes entirely from two sources:

1) Orcs
2) Forsaken

That's it. Nobody ever points to the Tauren as proof of the Horde's evil. Or the Darkspear Trolls. Hell, even Blood Elves and Goblins barely register. It's all Orcs and Forsaken. And as far as the Orcs are concerned, with the elimination of Garrosh, a good chunk of the Orc troublemakers have been dealt with. And Saurfang seems to be the new leader of the Orcs.

The Forsaken, however, are almost universally evil, and they drag the rest of the Horde along with them. Especially now that Sylvanas is Warchief (A position which I'm absolutely CERTAIN she gained through some kind of subterfuge. The Loa told Vol'jin to nominate Sylvanas as Warchief?!? Give me a break. She did SOMETHING to trick Vol'jin to make him think the Loa were vouching for her so she could take control). They plague Southshore and Gilneas, they made it possible for the Wrathgate incident to happen, they stirred up unnecessary violence between the Alliance and Horde during Legion, and their very nature makes them antithetical to all of the living, not just the Alliance. And due to the ambitions of Sylvanas, the bad blood which exists between her and several major members of the Alliance, as well as what the Forsaken have been doing to the living people of Lordaeron, conflict between the Forsaken and the Alliance is inevitable. Which means that conflict between the Horde and the Alliance is inevitable.

But that's a war which the Horde does NOT have to take part in, because it's a war entirely of the making of the Forsaken. On the other hand, what do the Horde get out of the Forsaken being members of the Horde? Absolutely nothing. It's all downsides. The only thing they had to offer, a foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms, is now gone as the Alliance have retaken Lordaeron. So there's no benefit whatsoever to the Horde for allowing the Forsaken to continue to be part of the Horde. If the Horde had any sense, they'd cut the Forsaken loose once and for all, boot Sylvanas from her position as Warchief, and make the Forsaken fight their own battles on their own while suing for a separate peace with the Alliance. The Forsaken and the Horde have two entirely different agendas, and the agenda of the Forsaken has done nothing but harm the Horde as a whole as well as taint them by their association with the Forsaken.


i agree with you on some points but bear in mind that the only living residents in lordaeron that didnt go there after the third war are the scarlet crusade, who are basically puppets to the legion at this point, the forsaken are part of the horde for a few reasons, main one being the fact that whether we like it or not they DO in fact have kinship with the orcs specifically, a supposed "higher power" came in and disrupted the lives that they had before and made them into monsters, main difference here is that unlike the forsaken the orcs cant sew their jaw back on after a fight
11/12/2017 10:03 AMPosted by Petrichôr
[quote="2075760

during the starting quests for the undead you see them being given the choice of service or being put back into the ground


Putting philosophy of the light etc, aside for the moment here;
Really? But, if according to you, they are "free" save their allegiance to Slyvannas, wouldn't her requiring more troops deem their service to be conscripation in effect. I don't think they could go against her, if she wanted them to serve.

Secondly, the issue of being "put back into the ground" so like, to rot? From a lore perspective im not sure here do the Valkyr take back their undeath? or Leave them to rot in undeath.


i meant back in the ground as in the magic used to reanimate them by the val'kyr would be taken back and they are no longer animate or "unalive" i guess, and for the conscription argument all of the races do this in essence, it just looks bad for sylvanas because instead of a barracks she has a crypt and yes there are some that serve the forsaken either unwillingly or mindlessly, ghouls zombies etc, but every race has one or two practices that is effectively commonplace and normal for them that might look bad to others, they often just try to keep it to themselves unless it becomes a major issue, the forsaken don't cannibalize (lorewise at least) the corpses of their major enemies because they have at least the freewill and understanding to respect their foes, likewise the night elves dont just automatically disregard anyone cutting wood from the forest as a heathen or something along those lines if they don't go overboard
11/12/2017 10:03 AMPosted by Azrael
If the Horde doesn't want to be considered the evil faction, then they seriously need to consider the idea of kicking the Forsaken out of the faction entirely.


I honestly questioned why they weren't kicked out after the things that they were doing during Cataclysm.

If this whole war comes down to the events of Stormheim..then I cannot support the war. While it is true that the initial attack was unprovoked, Sylvanas threw away any reason for me to support her after the whole deal with the Lantern and the way that she used the PC (without giving us any idea on what she was trying to do) to achieve her own goal when she hit a road block.

She put the mission that we were on in jeopardy and risked alienating a valuable ally in the fight against the Legion in order to exploit the trust that we gained with the Valkyra over the course of our pursuit of the Aegis of Aggramar.

Between the actions of the Forsaken and her personal actions... I have no reason to support her and this war, unless Blizzard comes up with a compelling reason for there to be war, should be a Forsaken problem alone.
11/11/2017 11:17 AMPosted by Applyurself
Why is it that the horde can always rampage through azeroth and they can always find excuses for literally everything while the alliance MUST always passively defend?

When we attack a tiny tauren camp while allowing the people to flee is considered the azeroth equivalent of the holocaust?

And even after that the horde proudly says that Theramore was legitimate and they infact didn't do anything wrong yet again.

Is this the mental gymnastics every horde player has to do before allying themselves to that faction?

Wrathgate, Teldrassil, Theramore and many more.

You are the villians.

Accept it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGSoiQCCz7g

Your hands aren't clean either. Now shut up ya knife eared git.
11/12/2017 10:03 AMPosted by Azrael
If the Horde doesn't want to be considered the evil faction, then they seriously need to consider the idea of kicking the Forsaken out of the faction entirely. Getting right down to it, the "Horde is evil" stuff comes entirely from two sources:

1) Orcs
2) Forsaken

That's it. Nobody ever points to the Tauren as proof of the Horde's evil. Or the Darkspear Trolls. Hell, even Blood Elves and Goblins barely register. It's all Orcs and Forsaken. And as far as the Orcs are concerned, with the elimination of Garrosh, a good chunk of the Orc troublemakers have been dealt with. And Saurfang seems to be the new leader of the Orcs.

For some reason, Gogol Bordello's "Trouble Friends" song just popped into my head.
11/12/2017 10:29 AMPosted by Rea
11/12/2017 10:03 AMPosted by Azrael
If the Horde doesn't want to be considered the evil faction, then they seriously need to consider the idea of kicking the Forsaken out of the faction entirely.


I honestly questioned why they weren't kicked out after the things that they were doing during Cataclysm.

If this whole war comes down to the events of Stormheim..then I cannot support the war. While it is true that the initial attack was unprovoked, Sylvanas threw away any reason for me to support her after the whole deal with the Lantern and the way that she used the PC (without giving us any idea on what she was trying to do) to achieve her own goal when she hit a road block.

She put the mission that we were on in jeopardy and risked alienating a valuable ally in the fight against the Legion in order to exploit the trust that we gained with the Valkyra over the course of our pursuit of the Aegis of Aggramar.

Between the actions of the Forsaken and her personal actions... I have no reason to support her and this war, unless Blizzard comes up with a compelling reason for there to be war, should be a Forsaken problem alone.


desperation makes good people do terrible things, sylvanas did everything she has done so far not just for herself but for all of the forsaken, alot of people want to say that she wants the val'kyr just for herself but if that was the case why would she give nathanos a new body? why would she go out of her way to keep vereesa safe in some battles, and to avoid altercations with her sister, why spend forces in the ghostlands to help the living elves that rejected her as a monster at first until desperation drove THEM into the horde? admittedly she has done some questionable things yes but compared to alot of the true evil gul'dan and lich kings types this world has known she is still in the moral gray area id say
The first character I ever played was an undead warlock and then a priest that I wanted to be shadow, but it was vanilla. I've always seen the Horde as villains to some degree, I suppose. Let's hope it doesn't change.
11/12/2017 10:41 AMPosted by Cowofheaven
11/12/2017 10:29 AMPosted by Rea
...

I honestly questioned why they weren't kicked out after the things that they were doing during Cataclysm.

If this whole war comes down to the events of Stormheim..then I cannot support the war. While it is true that the initial attack was unprovoked, Sylvanas threw away any reason for me to support her after the whole deal with the Lantern and the way that she used the PC (without giving us any idea on what she was trying to do) to achieve her own goal when she hit a road block.

She put the mission that we were on in jeopardy and risked alienating a valuable ally in the fight against the Legion in order to exploit the trust that we gained with the Valkyra over the course of our pursuit of the Aegis of Aggramar.

Between the actions of the Forsaken and her personal actions... I have no reason to support her and this war, unless Blizzard comes up with a compelling reason for there to be war, should be a Forsaken problem alone.


desperation makes good people do terrible things, sylvanas did everything she has done so far not just for herself but for all of the forsaken, alot of people want to say that she wants the val'kyr just for herself but if that was the case why would she give nathanos a new body? why would she go out of her way to keep vereesa safe in some battles, and to avoid altercations with her sister, why spend forces in the ghostlands to help the living elves that rejected her as a monster at first until desperation drove THEM into the horde? admittedly she has done some questionable things yes but compared to alot of the true evil gul'dan and lich kings types this world has known she is still in the moral gray area id say


Honestly, I think that it is a bit of both. She both wants to ensure that she has the ability to create more Forsaken in the future so that her race doesn't die off AND she wants the ability to create more Val'kyr for her own protection. Given the mathmatics involved in bringing her back if she dies, creating more Val'kyr does provide a certain advantage.. what with the whole Godfrey shooting her in the head deal costing her 3 Val'kyr to come back.

My thing is that I already have plenty of reasons to mistrust her and her motives and she only pushed that mistrust further by her actions in Stormheim.
11/12/2017 10:55 AMPosted by Rea
11/12/2017 10:41 AMPosted by Cowofheaven
...

desperation makes good people do terrible things, sylvanas did everything she has done so far not just for herself but for all of the forsaken, alot of people want to say that she wants the val'kyr just for herself but if that was the case why would she give nathanos a new body? why would she go out of her way to keep vereesa safe in some battles, and to avoid altercations with her sister, why spend forces in the ghostlands to help the living elves that rejected her as a monster at first until desperation drove THEM into the horde? admittedly she has done some questionable things yes but compared to alot of the true evil gul'dan and lich kings types this world has known she is still in the moral gray area id say


Honestly, I think that it is a bit of both. She both wants to ensure that she has the ability to create more Forsaken in the future so that her race doesn't die off AND she wants the ability to create more Val'kyr for her own protection. Given the mathmatics involved in bringing her back if she dies, creating more Val'kyr does provide a certain advantage.. what with the whole Godfrey shooting her in the head deal costing her 3 Val'kyr to come back.

My thing is that I already have plenty of reasons to mistrust her and her motives and she only pushed that mistrust further by her actions in Stormheim.


i agree with you on that but i try to think of it this way, if the closest thing i had to family, or at least family that didn't either pity or hate me outright, didn't have any way to get by without killing someone i don't know or dislike i'd just remind myself that i'm doing things for a good reason and get it done, probably feel like a jerk afterwards but if the ones i want to be safe are safe at the end of the day i'm fine with that, and all that is disregarding the possibility that yeah she might just be mad with power or whatever but there has always been a bigger threat for her to channel that madness into anyways, arthas, the legion, the old gods, until we get rid of all that i'm not sure killing off sylvanas is the most efficient course of action, why kill the minnow behind you when the shark is swimming at you from the front?
It's pretty obvious the Alliance are the real villains, as demonstrated by your James Bond villain style mistake of LEAVING US ALIVE after the "Siege of Orgrimmar". You might as well go sit in your plush overstuffed easy chair stroking Mr. Bigglesworth and relax while we destroy you in true heroic Bondian fashion.

"Doctor 'Doh' "?
11/12/2017 01:14 AMPosted by Talthoril
11/12/2017 01:08 AMPosted by Shiaz
...
man you really arnt bright are ya? maybe if you get smarter you will get complicated villains with more nuance. instead of stuff out of a cartoon that you people somehow get invested in and mad at. please i want our villains to be less cheesy


*Sips wine*

Indeed, the Horde is like a unique, smelly cheese. The more aged the better. Just mind the mold / Forsaken.

Alliance just can't understand us cause they're all one-dimensional hypocritical blow hards. Just like how they abandoned us in Broken Shore, or when they made orcs into slaves unprovoked. The horde has suffered for centuries under Alliance imperial colonialist aggression.

Lok'tar

Amirite fellow Horde?
/Mic was dropped after this comment!

High fives Tholthril =D
11/11/2017 07:45 PMPosted by Bril
11/11/2017 07:40 PMPosted by Bloodfang
Our very first encounter with the Night Elves ever was them ridding up on their battle cats, and murdering loggers for simply doing their job.


Perhaps the NEs had already been warned about Orcs from their Human allies who had already encountered you at this point?
If you played WC3 you would know that wasn't the case. The Night Elves weren't part of the Alliance at that time by the way. Orc's were the very first race from the Eastern Kingdoms the Night Elves ever encountered. Yes, I know Orc's aren't native to the Eastern Kingdoms. But, at the time neither Orc's nor any Alliance race knew Kalimdor existed. The Orc's knew of two inhabitants of what they considered the new land they discovered. The Darkspear Trolls, and the Tauren, who both actually made an attempt to talk with the Orc's. They've been our closets allies every since. The Night Elves without provocation of any kind attacked us. For again doing nothing more than cutting down trees.
- I don't know why they dicided to put Sylvanas as warchief, even tho she is my favorite character, i don't think she have the warchief background. She had a big personality change after the wotlk, but still kinda strange to see her as warchief.

- Its a pretty basic alliance minded thought to think what she done in guilneas was vile and evil. Garrosh ordered the attack and was planning to use the forsaken as meatshield for his soldiers, Sylvanas knew that the plague was the only way she could prevent her people from being slaughtered on the vanguard.

- The Wrathgate thing was Putress being manipulated by Varimathras, who just wanted to summon Sargeras into undercity, had nothing to do with the forsaken or Sylvanas.

Even if the forsaken were blatantly evil (and i'm not saying they are even slightly evil), they and the blood elves would have more than enough excuse to be the way they are. Both of them done what was necessary just to survive.

Now its time to ask, why are not the alliance evil?

- Genn hid behind a wall and watched while everyone else around him died. Calls the forsaken monsters, like it means something coming from him.

- Tyrande waged war on the horde because of some stupid trees.

- Humans think they have the absolute sence of justice, even tho they're just butthurt for losing some piece o land.

Gnomes and dwarfs are just and extension of Humans just like Trolls and Taurens are for Orcs.

Draenai and Blood Elves are in their respectives factions for convinience.

- I do think that the alliance needs more raid bosses, we had our fair share (Garrosh, Kael , whole WoD ... etc.). And i do think that the perfect boss would be Jaina or Genn, or both of them (please blizzard!).

In the end there is not much reason to keep on the war if not for the simple hate each faction have for the other. I don't think that there are any real villain, but if you ask me who the bad guy is, i would say that he dress himself in blue and yellow.
I see you villain! @_@ and your villain moustache!
11/12/2017 09:59 AMPosted by Derardø
Who cares, we both evil. Just look at what we've done to poor Azeroth


''We''? You speak for yourself, sludge-lover.

'WE' are not the ones who destroyed Hillsbrad, both zone and city, committing genocide except for the few left alive for your 'experiments'.

'WE' are not ones who betrayed Bolvar into the hands of the Lich King, as well as poisoning the rest of the assault force, Horde and Alliance both.

'WE' are not the ones who started an unprovoked attack on Gilneas with such vile tactics that even Garrosh was disgusted.

I could go on but you get the idea.
Now better learn how to stand and fight.

My runeblades hunger.
11/12/2017 12:17 PMPosted by Anareiel
11/12/2017 09:59 AMPosted by Derardø
Who cares, we both evil. Just look at what we've done to poor Azeroth


''We''? You speak for yourself, sludge-lover.

'WE' are not the ones who destroyed Hillsbrad, both zone and city, committing genocide except for the few left alive for your 'experiments'.

'WE' are not ones who betrayed Bolvar into the hands of the Lich King, as well as poisoning the rest of the assault force, Horde and Alliance both.

'WE' are not the ones who started an unprovoked attack on Gilneas with such vile tactics that even Garrosh was disgusted.

I could go on but you get the idea.
Now better learn how to stand and fight.

My runeblades hunger.


thats a bit hypocritical coming from someone who killed civilians and other innocents before snapping back to reality after their master basically tossed them aside, plus you use ghouls or geists as slaves and expendable troops, to a death knight, genocide and murder are the left and right hands
Sorry, didn't care over the sound of the Horde being the best.

:)
11/11/2017 11:17 AMPosted by Applyurself
Why is it that the horde can always rampage through azeroth and they can always find excuses for literally everything while the alliance MUST always passively defend?

When we attack a tiny tauren camp while allowing the people to flee is considered the azeroth equivalent of the holocaust?

And even after that the horde proudly says that Theramore was legitimate and they infact didn't do anything wrong yet again.

Is this the mental gymnastics every horde player has to do before allying themselves to that faction?

Wrathgate, Teldrassil, Theramore and many more.

You are the villians.

Accept it.


The alliance doesnt always passively defend, they have waged war on the horde many times unwarranted.

If you want someone to blame for the rivalry, blame Jaina. She originally ordered the attacks on the horde hunting camps that began this whole fiasco. She basically abandoned the alliance at broken shore, she tried to take on the LK and almost died because of it, the gunship had to save her sorry !@#$, and now in BFA shes back, and along with Genn, convincing Anduin that the horde was responsible for his fathers death. Varian sacrified himself so the gunboat could get free of the reavers grasp, the horde had nothing to do with it.

So, time for alliance to accept the fact its done a lot of crappy, AND stupid things, but would rather blame the horde than look at their own indiscretions/failures.
11/12/2017 12:12 PMPosted by Rednas
- Genn hid behind a wall and watched while everyone else around him died. Calls the forsaken monsters, like it means something coming from him.
I doubt that he just watched. Care to guess how he got cursed.

11/12/2017 12:12 PMPosted by Rednas
- Tyrande waged war on the horde because of some stupid trees.
It was more about defiling lands held sacred by their people and not just some trees.

11/12/2017 12:12 PMPosted by Rednas
- Humans think they have the absolute sence of justice, even tho they're just butthurt for losing some piece o land.
Losing your home to abominations makes one a little more than butthurt.

11/12/2017 12:12 PMPosted by Rednas
- I do think that the alliance needs more raid bosses, we had our fair share (Garrosh, Kael , whole WoD ... etc.). And i do think that the perfect boss would be Jaina or Genn, or both of them (please blizzard!).
Arthas, the 4 Horsemen, Fandral, Kelthu'zud, not like there wasn't any to begin with. I know, we can see how many Horde heroes are now neutral quest givers.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

''We''? You speak for yourself, sludge-lover.

'WE' are not the ones who destroyed Hillsbrad, both zone and city, committing genocide except for the few left alive for your 'experiments'.

'WE' are not ones who betrayed Bolvar into the hands of the Lich King, as well as poisoning the rest of the assault force, Horde and Alliance both.

'WE' are not the ones who started an unprovoked attack on Gilneas with such vile tactics that even Garrosh was disgusted.

I could go on but you get the idea.
Now better learn how to stand and fight.

My runeblades hunger.


thats a bit hypocritical coming from someone who killed civilians and other innocents before snapping back to reality after their master basically tossed them aside, plus you use ghouls or geists as slaves and expendable troops, to a death knight, genocide and murder are the left and right hands


Yes, we did all that. What's your point?

Look at us; Icecrown-cursed eyes that can only glare.
We wield blades of evil runes, twisted and defiled.
We command the Dark, and define it.
We are not what we were but are now, and will always be...

Monsters.

Immortal and remorseless.
The weapon of the Lich King; forged and tempered by His will.

And you need us.
Both factions accept and even prize us. Why is this? Because we are able to take whatever our foes, even the Legion, bring down.
We fall to their attacks only to rise and rise again.
And we laugh; in their face we LAUGH as we raise our former foes' desecrated corpses to fight at our command.

And we fight by your side, by order of your leaders.
Go to them if you will, for all the good it will do.

We remain.
We destroy.
Acherus Reborn.

Suffer well.

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