The sad truth

Story Forum
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11/07/2017 09:08 AMPosted by Iterate
Old Gods do not work in ways that are easy to notice.

Oh yes they do. We're always told they're subtle but always shown the complete opposite. Every single time they've ever been involved there's tentacles galore.
11/07/2017 08:54 AMPosted by Faûst
Is there precedent for Sylvanas being this petty. She's ruthless and calculating, but the randomness of traveling half way around the world to burn teldrassil down doesn't fit with what we've seen so far.

Normally I'd agree, but the prologue to the new book has her thinking about attacking Stormwind, and that seems pretty random to me too. This has me worried.
11/07/2017 09:14 AMPosted by Pellex
11/07/2017 08:54 AMPosted by Faûst
Is there precedent for Sylvanas being this petty. She's ruthless and calculating, but the randomness of traveling half way around the world to burn teldrassil down doesn't fit with what we've seen so far.

Normally I'd agree, but the prologue to the new book has her thinking about attacking Stormwind, and that seems pretty random to me too. This has me worried.
But the attack may not be born of pettiness or spite.

We just don't know yet.
11/07/2017 09:16 AMPosted by Carcaron
But the attack may not be born of pettiness or spite.

We just don't know yet.

You mean the on on Stormwind or the one on Darnassus?

There's some hope for the Darnassus one, but I don't see any way the Stormwind idea can be spun that makes Sylvanas look good.
11/07/2017 09:14 AMPosted by Pellex
11/07/2017 08:54 AMPosted by Faûst
Is there precedent for Sylvanas being this petty. She's ruthless and calculating, but the randomness of traveling half way around the world to burn teldrassil down doesn't fit with what we've seen so far.

Normally I'd agree, but the prologue to the new book has her thinking about attacking Stormwind, and that seems pretty random to me too. This has me worried.

I don't want plumb the depths of wild speculation, but someone posted a theory of what's in Stormwind that doesn't sound like a stretch for Sylvanas.
The theory wouldn't explain teldrassil at all though.
11/07/2017 09:19 AMPosted by Faûst
I don't want plumb the depths of wild speculation, but someone posted a theory of what's in Stormwind that doesn't sound like a stretch for Sylvanas.

If you're referring to a certain corpse, I'm afraid I don't find it plausible.
11/07/2017 09:19 AMPosted by Pellex
11/07/2017 09:16 AMPosted by Carcaron
But the attack may not be born of pettiness or spite.

We just don't know yet.

You mean the on on Stormwind or the one on Darnassus?

There's some hope for the Darnassus one, but I don't see any way the Stormwind idea can be spun that makes Sylvanas look good.
I never said "look good." But there may be a tactical reason, not a petty one. And the original query was to pettiness, not morality.
Hey, if she attacks out of spite but then turns out to have stopped an Old God infestation, will the same posters who defend Genn's attack on the grounds that he stopped Sylvanas enslaving Eyir then have to defend Sylvanas burning Teldrassil?
11/07/2017 09:20 AMPosted by Pellex
11/07/2017 09:19 AMPosted by Faûst
I don't want plumb the depths of wild speculation, but someone posted a theory of what's in Stormwind that doesn't sound like a stretch for Sylvanas.

If you're referring to a certain corpse, I'm afraid I don't find it plausible.

No, the premise is in the aftermath of Stormheim, Genn becomes Sylvanas' new Arthas fixation.
11/07/2017 09:22 AMPosted by Carcaron
But there may be a tactical reason, not a petty one. And the original query was to pettiness, not morality.

Sylvanas doing tactical things for the evulz isn't really any better than Sylvanas doing petty things for the spite.

11/07/2017 09:24 AMPosted by Carmageddon
Hey, if she attacks out of spite but then turns out to have stopped an Old God infestation, will the same posters who defend Genn's attack on the grounds that he stopped Sylvanas enslaving Eyir then have to defend Sylvanas burning Teldrassil?

Only if the Horde player gets to find a half-destroyed message saying "We have learned that Teldrassil is c..." and give it to a low-level Horde official who promises to pass it up the chain.
11/07/2017 05:58 AMPosted by Syriyna
I think we should brace ourselves for the possibility that Sylvanas was just being vindictive and burned the tree down out of spite


The issue for me is, "Why?"

I believe the burning of Teldrassil is going to take place in the upcoming novel, since the battle for Lordaeron is supposed to take place right before the Expansions (pre-expac event?).

And that novel firmly cements that Sylvanas is think of attacking Stormwind. Then what brings her across the world to burn down the Night Elves' tree? What beef, if any, does Sylvanas have against the Night Elves?

I don't believe Sylvanas is a character who would act out of pure spite, especially if it resulted in the Horde being thrust into a war with her Forsaken at the forefront of the counter-assault.

Attacking Stormwind cuts the head off the snake and removes a massive power from the Eastern Kingdoms. But burning Teldrassil only pisses off the Alliance back home, who respond by pushing the Horde out of Tirisfal, which is exactly what Sylvanas would want to avoid.

So why sail across the world to burn a tree? How does a conflict in Stormwind jump to Teldrassil? If Sylvanas was acting out of pure spite, why is Saurfang okay with it?

There's just too many questions right now.
11/07/2017 09:31 AMPosted by Hackbrew
There's just too many questions right now.


This.

I can see a few entirely reasonable scenarios based on what we know, but we don't know everything. We're missing the "spark" spoke of in the trailer. Stormheim, Gilneas, etc- that's just the 'kindling.'
11/07/2017 09:11 AMPosted by Reignac
11/07/2017 09:08 AMPosted by Iterate
Old Gods do not work in ways that are easy to notice.

Oh yes they do. We're always told they're subtle but always shown the complete opposite. Every single time they've ever been involved there's tentacles galore.


To be fair, Ulduar was pretty much a perfect usurp outside of Tyr and co. If we want to run with the theory that it is old gods corrupting the tree, that sets precedent that they can pull something subtle off.

To play with it a bit, you can have Malfurion and Tyrande away helping to heal Val'sharah of the Nightmare, so that the most obvious choices to notice it aren't there at the beginning. By the time they return the corruption has spread but it is not immediately visible. The populace is acting much like people would in a body snatchers movie where they slowly take over. When it is noticed Malfurion is overwhelmed by the mob and retreats to Moonglade. There, he summons the rest of the available druids and leaders and warns them.

What follows would be much like Stratholme, a debate over whether to try and contain it and find a cure vs beginning a purge and saving those still unaffected. A tenuous agreement forms where the Horde agrees to wait for another cleansing attempt by the Malfurion and druid/priest halls while supported by an Alliance fleet. However, they give them a deadline(or keep it to themselves) where if they aren't signaled they will move in to pull out who they can and begin a purge.

Of course the corruption escalates and the Horde sees no use in waiting for on the original timeline as the spread is becoming too great. They launch the purge early, and either through a new blight or Azerite, the tree is burned.

Do I think something this nuanced will happen, no. But it at least gives me a reason why Saurfang would be ok with launching an attack on Teldrassil and later on having the entire Horde ready to defend UC. It also explains the arrowed elf - either one of the corrupted or an Alliance emissary that tried to stop the purge signal.
11/07/2017 05:58 AMPosted by Syriyna
Most evidence I have seen points to the Horde burning Darnassus prior to the fall of Lordaeron and naturally there is a lot of people speculating about motivations or conspiracies to frame the Horde.

However, as much as I still hold out hope for something different, I think we should brace ourselves for the possibility that Sylvanas was just being vindictive and burned the tree down out of spite.

90% of the time when we have storylines like this involving the Horde that pretty much ends up being the reason. That or trying to take the Alliance's stuff. I am sure we will all still look for reasons to justify it but I wouldn't get my hopes up too much. There is a very large chance this will just be the Horde being bastards again.

So my fellow Hordies, hope for the best.... but expect the worst.


I really don't understand why you Horde get so upset time and again that the Horde makes questionable decisions. You're the underdogs, the tribal races, the powerlusting Elves, the war-like code of honor people, the questionable Forsaken.

That's not to say you are irredeemably evil or anything like that, far from it, but as a whole you are playing on the faction that has some troubled races in there. You should embrace it, you have both good and bad in the Horde and that shows every expansion. That's what gives you your identity. And that despite all this that this collection of underdogs bands together and fights for their place in the world, any way they can if need be. For suvival as well. For the Horde.

If you wanted to play a just and pure (for the most part, anyway) faction then you should go with the Alliance. The Horde has things more complicated, and that's what helps make you guys interesting. You've yet to see the how and why she exactly burns down Teldrassil, but i'm sure it'll be something interesting.
11/07/2017 09:31 AMPosted by Hackbrew
And that novel firmly cements that Sylvanas is think of attacking Stormwind.

And I don't get why she's doing that either, to be honest. I don't see how the Horde can be in any way strong enough at this point in their history to deliberately provoke a war. I also don't see what she has to gain from it. Yes, yes, it's better for the Horde if Stormwind isn't in a position to attack them, but that's always true. Why go on the offensive now?

Gashy:

I really don't understand why you Horde get so upset time and again that the Horde makes questionable decisions.... as a whole you are playing on the faction that has some troubled races in there.

Because we want it to be complicated, to vary things up. Ever since Garrosh, we've been in the wrong, and some of us are tired of it. Just once, we want our faction as a whole (not just the PC) to be justified.

And there's also some worry about Sylvanas turning into Garrosh 2.0, although I do hope they won't do that.

And that despite all this that this collection of underdogs bands together and fights for their place in the world, any way they can if need be. For suvival as well.

I can get behind that. But Sylvanas gathering an army and marching on Stormwind out of the blue doesn't look like "fighting for survival." Unless there's more about the situation that will be revealed in the book, but experience has taught me not to get too excited about that possibility.
11/07/2017 09:11 AMPosted by Reignac
11/07/2017 09:08 AMPosted by Iterate
Old Gods do not work in ways that are easy to notice.

Oh yes they do. We're always told they're subtle but always shown the complete opposite. Every single time they've ever been involved there's tentacles galore.


Is that why Teldrassil was corrupted for years and no one noticed?

Or how Arch Bishop Benedictus was Twilight's Hammer for years an no one noticed?

Or how the last war was sparked by Twilight's Hammer attacking both Alliance and Horde?

The Old Gods can be very sneaky if they want.
11/07/2017 08:54 AMPosted by Faûst
Is there precedent for Sylvanas being this petty. She's ruthless and calculating, but the randomness of traveling half way around the world to burn teldrassil down doesn't fit with what we've seen so far.


I still don't think Blizzard is far enough down the barrel of ideas that they're gonna do a Theramore retread.

11/07/2017 09:11 AMPosted by Reignac
Oh yes they do. We're always told they're subtle but always shown the complete opposite. Every single time they've ever been involved there's tentacles galore.


I was gonna say something about how players have meta knowledge about stuff that lore and player characters don't, but then I got to 'tentacles galore'.

I got nothin'.

11/07/2017 09:31 AMPosted by Hackbrew
If Sylvanas was acting out of pure spite, why is Saurfang okay with it?


I hate to say it. I don't like Sylvanas as Warchief but it's pretty clear Blizzard wants her to be more hero and less villain these days.

/sigh
Sylvanas doing tactical things for the evulz isn't really any better than Sylvanas doing petty things for the spite.
That wasn't really the question though.

Besides, what's evil about attacking Stormwind?
Yes, yes, it's better for the Horde if Stormwind isn't in a position to attack them, but that's always true. Why go on the offensive now?
And those are questions I'm positive the book will answer. So, atm, jumping to conclusions or forming theories is pretty useless until we know more.
11/07/2017 10:31 AMPosted by Bronnix
Is that why Teldrassil was corrupted for years and no one noticed?

Everyone knew it. That Teldrassil's wildlife was corrupt was a part of nelf 1-10 questing ever since vanilla.
11/07/2017 10:31 AMPosted by Bronnix
Or how Arch Bishop Benedictus was Twilight's Hammer for years an no one noticed?

Source that it was for years, because "I looked into the eyes of the dragon and despaired" indicates it was only in Cata that he went nuts.
11/07/2017 10:31 AMPosted by Bronnix
Or how the last war was sparked by Twilight's Hammer attacking both Alliance and Horde?

Yeah and that wasn't exactly subtle, it was a literal slaughter of a group of druids in Ashenvale.

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