What 'betrayal' you speak of?

General Discussion
So i just re-watched the Blizzcon opening ceremony

The host dude said (sorry i forgot your name) : Alliance doesn't forget the betrayal of the Horde in the broken shore that led to their king death...

What betrayal?
Did you forget that your SI:7 been infiltrated by the Legion and giving you false information about broken shore?
If we don't retreat, we'll be overrun and die, and we can't clear the skies for the Alliance anyway.
Are you telling us to die a meaningless death? Remember all the horde leader is in there, all the horde most powerful champion (us) is there, and you tell us to just die there?

Are you telling me NO ONE, like LITERALLY not a single person,
not the Players, that you know SURVIVE BROKEN SHORE ASSAULT AND BECAME THE LEADER OF A NEUTRAL CLASS ORDER HALL? like literally the most trustworthy person in the game (maybe except DK and Warlock? sorry guys)
not Baine, the most sensible horde leader
not Khadgar, the most neutral character
not Velen, the most sensible alliance leader
not a SINGLE PERSON of either side ask / tell why horde have to retreat??

And then you said this "Betrayal" is the reason why Alliance hate horde
That this "Betrayal" cause un-healable wound?

Are
You
Kidding
Me?


Does anyone ask about this on Q&A Panel? because i can't find any, i am subbed to ~10 WoW youtuber that spamming my Sub Box about Blizzcon stuff, i check Wowhead almost every second, and i am yet to find someone talking about this.

Am i the only who care?
:/
Had the Horde held for at least a little bit longer, the Alliance could have pushed to the Tomb. Sylvanas does indeed care very much about the Horde, but she went to that degree to leave The Alliance to die out there, instead of them. That is selfish from her either way.
There was an ongoing debate as to whether Sylvanas' retreat was purely out of necessity or had an element of backstabbing to it. This was echoed in-game by how Jaina interpreted the situation, and unfortunately this isn't really contradicted in-game either.

If Blizzard is actually officially confirming one way or another with this, then I'm not entirely sure I believe they've done the right thing. Part of the faction conflict's charm was the "enforced racism" and dismissal-via-ignorance-and-xenophobia between the two - just like the Cold War.

We don't need Blizzard stepping in and saying "yeah, Horde were the bad guys here, Alliance there." That should be for us to decide and debate.
Yes, the big problem here is that Sylvanas never bothered to explain her actions. She could've done so by Khadgar who would've contacted the Alliance.

But she didn't. She just left and was never seen again until Stormheim.

That's irresponsible of her part as a leader. If you're in a truce with another gang, and you're forced to something that will look as a betrayal, you have to talk about it after.

Otherwise, you cannot blame the other faction for thinking you "betrayed them" neither Genn for the same purpose. Even though he acted against his King's will.

You know, i call it bad writting either way. Like you said, all this Horde and Alliance working together and somehow that vital detail was never talked about?

Just another rushed and unprofessional reason for lore PvP. Blizz could do better. But looks like we in Azeroth are all morons.
You guys having to leave was not the problem. The big problem here is that Sylvanas never bothered to explain her actions. She could've done so by Khadgar who would've contacted the Alliance.

But she didn't. She just left and was never seen again until Stormheim.

That's irresponsible of her part as a leader. If you're in a truce with another gang, and you're forced to something that will look as a betrayal, you have to talk about it after.

Otherwise, you cannot blame the other faction for thinking you "betrayed them" neither Genn for the same purpose. Even though he acted against his King's will.

You know, i call it bad writting either way. All this Horde and Alliance working together and somehow that vital detail was never talked about?

Just another rushed and unprofessional reason for lore PvP. Blizz could do better. But looks like we in Azeroth are all morons.


It didn't help that Jaina's assumption of the worst case wasn't directly challenged. All Anduin and Velen had to say was "please, we need to work together!" instead of the much more logical, "you do realize they were forced back, right?"

Sadly many a narrative has relied upon contrived poor communication to drive the story. Half the movies we love so much wouldn't make it past 5 minutes if people asked follow up questions.
its ok Milkshakemoo, I still love you

/hug
11/06/2017 05:49 AMPosted by Kharneus
Had the Horde held for at least a little bit longer, the Alliance could have pushed to the Tomb. Sylvanas does indeed care very much about the Horde, but she went to that degree to leave The Alliance to die out there, instead of them. That is selfish from her either way.
And? The alliance reach the tomb, Gul'dan summon Fel Reaver, Alliance held their ground for a bit longer... and then the horde get wiped out, because there is no way the alliance can give support to horde, and then the Horde won't be able to give support from the high ground again... because all of them were dead... and then the alliance got overrun from the sky... then they got wiped out too...

Also let's not forget that the SI:7 been giving false information about Legion in the Broken Shore prior to the assault
The Rogue found out about this, but do they tell Anduin?

My main concern is none of them communicate, like that should be the top priority thing to do after their defeat, the alliance should send a massanger to the horde and ask "why the hell you run away?" and then idk, held a meeting and talk about it?
We got dalaran as a neutral hub, ffs, why none of the faction leader go here and talk about it together with Khadgar and the Player?
I guess since Blizzard officially confirmed that it was a betrayal rather than a surviving an ambush, then it becomes official lore. For all intents and purposes, the Horde left the Alliance alone in the middle of a battle and cowardly retreated.

Even though, Horde characters can clearly see that, if we didn't retreat, we would have just been wiped out completely.

Man, this faction has some many things wrong... Beginning with its writing.
11/06/2017 05:49 AMPosted by Kharneus
Had the Horde held for at least a little bit longer, the Alliance could have pushed to the Tomb. Sylvanas does indeed care very much about the Horde, but she went to that degree to leave The Alliance to die out there, instead of them. That is selfish from her either way.


You're deluding yourself if you think The Alliance would have made it to the tomb.

Even if you did, not only would the entire Horde leadership be dead, but all of you would soon follow as the entire Legion army pressed down on you.

!@#$, it's actually annoying me that people think this kind of stuff. Did you forget we needed the pillars to even breach the tomb? You'd literally be sitting on your asses waiting to be cut down.
11/06/2017 05:46 AMPosted by Milkshakemoo
What betrayal?
There was no betrayal, except for one invented in the minds of Alliance leaders like Greymane who was already seething in hatred of the Horde anyway. But regardless of what was true, that perception can drive further action. I think that's all that was really meant there, not that the perception of a betrayal was any more true than it used to be, just that they think there was a betrayal and don't forget that.
11/06/2017 05:49 AMPosted by Kharneus
Had the Horde held for at least a little bit longer, the Alliance could have pushed to the Tomb. Sylvanas does indeed care very much about the Horde, but she went to that degree to leave The Alliance to die out there, instead of them. That is selfish from her either way.
The Alliance would not have been able to push to the Tomb. The battle had turned, they just didn't know it yet. And even if they had pushed there, they weren't getting in, and Gul'dan had more power to be unleashed yet that the Allianece had not anticipated. Even with the Horde covering the skies up top, the Alliance would have been decimated down bottom if they had persisted. Beyond that in fact, Sylvanas sounded her horn giving the Alliance notice that the Horde had to fall back from their position. She didn't just quietly sneak away with her forces leaving you guys high and dry. She gave notice and then moved as the tactical situation called for, expecting the Alliance was competent enough to see to their own fall back position.
11/06/2017 06:00 AMPosted by Milkshakemoo
Also let's not forget that the SI:7 been giving false information about Legion in the Broken Shore prior to the assault
A salient point, and yet you rarely hear the Horde calling the Alliance traitors and betrayers because of this...
11/06/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Killershama
its ok Milkshakemoo, I still love you

/hug
I love you too, i hope next expansion "faction war" only last 1 raid tier. I really don't like how it feel super forced.

I won't participate on the Warfront or even the pre-patch event if it is about faction war.

You can quote me on this, if there like an achivement for doing Warfront, and you see me have it, go ahead an remind me of this, i'll seriously unsub.
(unless it like, forced to progress the story further to gain access to other content, but i really hope this is not the case)
yes even if i'll be behind in sense of character progression because of azerite or gear, i do not care.
Take it easy man. This is blizzards writing we're talking about so don't get too rattled about details.
11/06/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Ekhana
It didn't help that Jaina's assumption of the worst case wasn't directly challenged. All Anduin and Velen had to say was "please, we need to work together!" instead of the much more logical, "you do realize they were forced back, right?"

Sadly many a narrative has relied upon contrived poor communication to drive the story. Half the movies we love so much wouldn't make it past 5 minutes if people asked follow up questions.


That's the problem. Blizz made it seem as if Sylvanas just said "leave them to die." Even if the Alliance thought there that the Horde abandoned us, after this we spent too much time together. Enough to even talk about this. Heck, enough for races of the alliance and races of the Horde to fall in love, lol. And they tell me the Horde never told what happened or that an alliance druid asked a fellow Horde Druid what happened there?

Or Thrall being in Dalaran never went to Khadgar and talk to him or Khadgar going to talk to Thrall? (I guess he was in Dalaran(?)

I think lack of communication is a poor move on Blizzard's part. I don't feel right having to "hate" the Horde in game because reasons like this.
11/06/2017 05:46 AMPosted by Milkshakemoo
What betrayal?
There was no betrayal, except for one invented in the minds of Alliance leaders like Greymane who was already seething in hatred of the Horde anyway. But regardless of what was true, that perception can drive further action. I think that's all that was really meant there, not that the perception of a betrayal was any more true than it used to be, just that they think there was a betrayal and don't forget that.

Exactly this. It's a perceived betrayal. Alliance is still under that impression and has been given no reason to believe otherwise. That's all that was meant.
11/06/2017 06:06 AMPosted by Thaeron
Take it easy man. This is blizzards writing we're talking about so don't get too rattled about details.
Except that this detail is the reason why next expansion exists.

I mean cmon, Warlord of Draenor, time travel, Archimonde sending AU Gul'dan to our world that led to Legion Expansion make more sense than this!
I blame the Alliance fiasco on Jaina. Her biggest contribution throughout the history of this game has been the ability to mass teleport. Why didn't she get the Alliance out of danger instead of just getting herself out?
This is why I'm starting to not like the expansion's premise.

The devs have to turn ALL our faction leaders into clueless morons to be able to write the story to go in the direction they want.

The ONLY faction leaders that should act like bloodthirsty savages are Genn and Sylvanas, each for their own perfectly understandable reasons. Genn wants to avenge Gilneas and his son, and Sylvanas wants to avoid eternal damnation. That the other faction leaders allow the circumstances that brings about BfA's entire expansion premise just makes them look like utter morons, in addition to pulling several of them completely out of character.

Velen, Anduin, Lor'Themar, and Baine WOULD NOT ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN if they were kept in character, particularly Anduin and Lor'Themar. Both have sympathies for the other faction that should have stopped this from ever happening.
11/06/2017 05:49 AMPosted by Kharneus
Had the Horde held for at least a little bit longer, the Alliance could have pushed to the Tomb. Sylvanas does indeed care very much about the Horde, but she went to that degree to leave The Alliance to die out there, instead of them. That is selfish from her either way.


The only decision Sylvanas got to make at the Broken Shore was whether or not she would obey an order from her Warchief.
Vol'Jin order her to protect the hordes forces.
I fail to see the problem with the faction war taking the front once again.

It's the foundation of the Warcraft universe and it's about time we got back to it. Personally I think it's a refreshing take on the non stop "Oh no look at this big evil we should all work together to get rid of it." It's nice to have an expansion based on good ol' Horde v Alliance.

We'll get the Old Gods, no doubt. But lets take sometime and enjoy what made Warcraft what it is in the first place and KILL EACH OTHER THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE!

For the Horde! :D
11/06/2017 05:53 AMPosted by Ekhana


If Blizzard is actually officially confirming one way or another with this

[/quote]

I don't think they're officially confirming anything - just reiterating that from the Alliance point of view it seemed like a betrayal.

It is ridiculous that the whole premise is based on nobody from either faction meeting with anyone on the other side to find out what really happened. I guess you could ague that the more hawkish leaders in the Alliance (Genn, Jaina, maybe Tyrande) wouldn't believe any excuse that Sylvanas or the Horde gave. And there's also the fact that Sylvanas isn't the type of person to offer an explanation or an apology. She did what she did and doesn't care one way or the other what the other side feels.

But it's still a stretch.

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