Player Skill Evolution

Classic Discussion
11/27/2017 12:59 PMPosted by Dreamscape
I dont think most people who are logging on today to raid heroic are as stalwart as you might think.


I agree, but I don't think they'll have to be. With more skill, better raid comps, etc, comes a lesser need for other things that were used as leg-ups to supplement the severe lack of skill in vanilla.
11/27/2017 10:07 AMPosted by Origional
Apologies if this topic has already been brought up.

I played a rogue back in Vanilla. I consider my guild successful, we progressed to 6-14 in Naxx40. Even with a "successful" end-game guild, I felt like we carried at least 25% of our raid group.

The average guild carried 50-60% of their raid through progression.

However, the average player may not be "better" since Vanilla, but at the very least they are more informed. With all the addons, guides, streams, websites, etc available at their disposal; there is no excuse to not be informed. As we all know, knowledge is power.. knowledge is "Skill".

Vanilla will also purge many of the abilities that classes currently juggle today. This will only further cement my point above.

At long last my question - Will content be too easy? Will Molten Bore be "bore" right off the bat? Will BWL (which was the first real gear check) be cleared much faster because of better skilled and mech oriented players?

I understand that even today's guilds carry underperformers. But I expect the average guild to have less in Classic Servers than they did in Vanilla.

Keep in mind, there will still be the Vaels, Patchwerks, Twin Emps, Thads, Cthuns which will be challenging even with a skilled player base... but will the majority of UNCHANGED end-game really offer the true Vanilla experience? Thoughts?

Thanks for your time.


If raids are really tuned to be that easy, why can't people not use addons like DBM? Why can't guilds figure the fight out themselves, instead of forcing people to spoil the experience by reading up on it first? Why can't guilds let hybrids play the specs they want?

All of the above would probably greatly challenge even mythic raiders.
11/27/2017 12:59 PMPosted by Paranoia
11/27/2017 12:50 PMPosted by Ellilaine


16k raid-wide damage as often as every 3 seconds wouldn't hold anyone back?

Mmkay...


DPS only dies when it's dead. They have health pools and that is a constant damage that is easy to mitigate. We have healthstones. We have major mana potions, we even have greater flame protection potions that we can pop midway into fight.

Like I said, you're clueless lad.

ps, find me a video where magma splash is hitting every 3 seconds. I can't find anything.


ps first: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=11502/ragnaros#abilities shows a 3 second cooldown on Wrath of Ragnaros (the aoe ability), I didn't say he used it every 3 seconds throughout I said "as often as every 3 seconds".

All of those things you listed have cooldowns and stack limitations (not to mention warlocks won't be making more and passing them out during the fight without, guess what, reducing the raid's DPS). Spending a gcd popping a potion instead of doing damage? Yep more lost DPS. All of that damage has to be healed which requires healers and healer gcds/mana which means lower raid DPS so longer fight so more damage to the raid. Maybe that extra causes you to hit the submerge instead of killing him beforehand (since later vanilla changes actually made pre-submerge doable) which opens up a whole different can of worms to deal with. Removing a boss ability like that has a significant impact on the difficulty.
The modern game is a lot more simple when it comes to general game mechanics, resource management and logistics compared to vanilla and people's reflexes worsen as they age, and guess what, we're older now.

Twitch dancing alone doesn't turn the content hard, it's an exercise of mechanical repetition which obviously isn't overtuned in a game like this, you get used to it.
11/27/2017 03:40 PMPosted by Somafera
The modern game is a lot more simple when it comes to general game mechanics, resource management and logistics compared to vanilla and people's reflexes worsen as they age, and guess what, we're older now.

Twitch dancing alone doesn't turn the content hard, it's an exercise of mechanical repetition which obviously isn't overtuned in a game like this, you get used to it.


I disagree. Bosses have more abilities these days and players have more abilities to combat them.

Bosses are much more simple in Vanilla outside of Naxx40 and the back half of Aq40.

Aging reflexes have nothing to do w/ it. Its the fact that quick reflexes weren't needed in Vanilla for MC, ZG or even some of BWL.

We're getting derailed here...

The point that we're attempting to make here isn't that getting a 40 player group together isn't challenging, its not that the time spent farming fire protection pots or resist gear wont be time consuming, its simply that outside of all of that the end-game content may be easier for the average WoW player (since the average WoW player is MUCH more informed of their requirements in todays game).

Vanilla wont all of the sudden dumb the player base down... it's the same better informed players today, but playing a simpler but more time consuming game.

The question is, will all the Vanilla purists (and I consider myself one of them) be ok with Vanilla end-game changes to give us the TRUE Vanilla experience we all crave. Or do we push for absolutely no changes and deal with the potential fallout of end-game not living up to the ridiculous amount of time spent working towards it.
11/27/2017 03:52 PMPosted by Origional
The point that we're attempting to make here isn't that getting a 40 player group together isn't challenging, its not that the time spent farming fire protection pots or resist gear wont be time consuming, its simply that outside of all of that the end-game content may be easier for the average WoW player (since the average WoW player is MUCH more informed of their requirements in todays game).

It is and you'll see that soon enough.
11/27/2017 12:08 PMPosted by Paranoia
11/27/2017 10:40 AMPosted by Crepe
It'll be different.

There'll be threat issues. Most people aren't used to that any more.

There'll be OOM healers.

There'll be trash issues--because there's trash you can't just gather up and AoE.

There'll be 39 other people who won't be prepared, won't have fire prot pots, won't decurse or interrupt, etc.

Yeah, gonna be a few rage quits. And just plain rage.

Players aren't inherently more skillful. They're just practiced. And they have access to more information. But finding 40 people willing to do the prep work and deal with a few dozen wipes? Good luck with that.


You honestly make it sound difficult. When players are getting 1-60 and then killing ragnaros all within 15 days there comes a point when you have to take off your rose tinted glasses and say--maybe this content really isn't hard.


Weird, i didnt think Blizzard opened the classic servers yet??? Ohh your talking private servers? I will go out on a limb here and say a multi-billion dollar company will do a better job than a few people working for free. Just pure Logic here bud.
11/27/2017 04:22 PMPosted by Bigsly
Weird, i didnt think Blizzard opened the classic servers yet??? Ohh your talking private servers? I will go out on a limb here and say a multi-billion dollar company will do a better job than a few people working for free. Just pure Logic here bud


This.

Many of the private servers have Yx experience to make leveling easier and have tuned end-game to allow for easy progression. True Classic wont be that easy.

However, I do think it'll be easier than it actually was when I progressed in Vanilla.
11/27/2017 04:43 PMPosted by Origional
Many of the private servers have Yx experience to make leveling easier and have tuned end-game to allow for easy progression. True Classic wont be that easy.

However, I do think it'll be easier than it actually was when I progressed in Vanilla.


I don't doubt that it will be easier if for no other reason than the fights are well documented so no one will have to struggle through figuring out how the fight works and come up with strategies for them. That said, I also don't think they will be getting ripped through in a matter of days.
Yeah, private servers are akin to WoW vanilla right before BC. They have a ton of very geared players that are face-rolling most of the content. However, and this is huuge, they do not have the classic server data. It's their best guess and they adjust stuff to make it easier or harder as they feel like it. Each 'server' can be vastly different.

Do they have an entire QA department to test/adjust out how hard Ragnaros is.....or Garr.....or Ghedon? Not even close. Private servers give us an idea of what WoW was like but trust all the people posting.......classic was a !@#$%. It took time, and raid bosses were progression checks:

MC checks that I can recall off the top pf my head (likely missed a couple):
1) Resist check (fire packs required two tanks with fire resist gear that had reputation requirements to make). The rest of the raid needed resist gear for Rag (remember MCing casters in UBRS to buff the raid with a fire resist buff that only lasted a short time?)
2) Gear/DPS/hydraxian rep/consumable check
3) Organization/leadership check (remember class channes in raids?)
4) Knowledge check for every boss from Garr on (get away from the BOMB!)

Dealing with 25 people is cake compared to 40. Will experienced players be able to conquer all these raiding checks when classic comes out? Eventually, but its the process that's fun.

Blizzard isn't going to give us easy role content in classic. That applies to leveling, instances, and raids. Buckle up its gonna be fun.
11/27/2017 03:52 PMPosted by Origional
11/27/2017 03:40 PMPosted by Somafera
The modern game is a lot more simple when it comes to general game mechanics, resource management and logistics compared to vanilla and people's reflexes worsen as they age, and guess what, we're older now.

Twitch dancing alone doesn't turn the content hard, it's an exercise of mechanical repetition which obviously isn't overtuned in a game like this, you get used to it.


I disagree. Bosses have more abilities these days and players have more abilities to combat them.

Bosses are much more simple in Vanilla outside of Naxx40 and the back half of Aq40.

Aging reflexes have nothing to do w/ it. Its the fact that quick reflexes weren't needed in Vanilla for MC, ZG or even some of BWL.

We're getting derailed here...

The point that we're attempting to make here isn't that getting a 40 player group together isn't challenging, its not that the time spent farming fire protection pots or resist gear wont be time consuming, its simply that outside of all of that the end-game content may be easier for the average WoW player (since the average WoW player is MUCH more informed of their requirements in todays game).

Vanilla wont all of the sudden dumb the player base down... it's the same better informed players today, but playing a simpler but more time consuming game.

The question is, will all the Vanilla purists (and I consider myself one of them) be ok with Vanilla end-game changes to give us the TRUE Vanilla experience we all crave. Or do we push for absolutely no changes and deal with the potential fallout of end-game not living up to the ridiculous amount of time spent working towards it.


thuper duper post. Personally, i wouldn't mind it if Blizz tuned them to be harder.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

DPS only dies when it's dead. They have health pools and that is a constant damage that is easy to mitigate. We have healthstones. We have major mana potions, we even have greater flame protection potions that we can pop midway into fight.

Like I said, you're clueless lad.

ps, find me a video where magma splash is hitting every 3 seconds. I can't find anything.


ps first: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=11502/ragnaros#abilities shows a 3 second cooldown on Wrath of Ragnaros (the aoe ability), I didn't say he used it every 3 seconds throughout I said "as often as every 3 seconds".

All of those things you listed have cooldowns and stack limitations (not to mention warlocks won't be making more and passing them out during the fight without, guess what, reducing the raid's DPS). Spending a gcd popping a potion instead of doing damage? Yep more lost DPS. All of that damage has to be healed which requires healers and healer gcds/mana which means lower raid DPS so longer fight so more damage to the raid. Maybe that extra causes you to hit the submerge instead of killing him beforehand (since later vanilla changes actually made pre-submerge doable) which opens up a whole different can of worms to deal with. Removing a boss ability like that has a significant impact on the difficulty.


Wrath of ragnaros is on a 25-30 second interval. You're confusing that with ragnaros' lava splash ability which isn't included on modern day world of warcraft databases. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Your arguments about losing GCD's to health potions and mana potions are inconsequential and irrelevant. Healthstones/dark runes/demonic runes don't trigger the GCD. Ragnaros is a fluid enough fight to where you can pop your potions while re positioning. Again, not sure if you know what you're talking about.

It will not influence it significantly at all--Ragnaros dies within the first month of server release.

You know what? Why don't you just watch a couple of videos. Why not watch the WORLD first TOP dps rogue's pov?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br1hXGXJ7Tg

I'll point out a few things to you:

Elixir of the mongoose and like, fort/MoTW are his only real buffs.
No slice and dice ever.
Using zero FR for the first phase (only swapped out during combat drop when sons spawn). This highly suggests that the "lmao 16k damage" is significantly less (lava bursts occur in proximity to lava flows, implying there are safe zones like the one the rogue uses above)
The druid "healer" is nuking like an idiot.
Ragnaros is missing his AoE knockback (not implemented yet) or it's fully resistable and the melee are slightly out of its range while still maintaining contact with rag's hitbox.

Retards make vanilla wow hard. nothing more, nothing less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTEojnxf0fE
video where lava bursts are apparent.

starting from the first one. Boss fight starts at 0:40
0:43
0:45 (absorbed)
1:00 (absorbed)
1:06 (absorbed)
1:42 (absorbed)
2:00
2:03
2:05
3:03

Now he basically absorbed more than half of the lava bursts with a potion he went into his bags to click after he realized he didn't prepot.

What if he prepotted? Would all of the AoE damage be nullified by just having a fire resistance totem? Probably.
11/27/2017 10:10 AMPosted by Teqheala
I think tuning the dmg to account for min/max culture to make things harder should be on the table.

If people are clearing MC in 30 minutes on Nost, what fun is that? It's like running a heroic. Except it took you 3 hours to assemble 40 people.


I'm a purist and against any non-vanilla changes. But things like Boss HP/Dmg should be on the table if it preserves the historical difficulty of Vanilla WOW Raiding.
11/28/2017 01:26 AMPosted by Frostchi
11/27/2017 10:10 AMPosted by Teqheala
I think tuning the dmg to account for min/max culture to make things harder should be on the table.

If people are clearing MC in 30 minutes on Nost, what fun is that? It's like running a heroic. Except it took you 3 hours to assemble 40 people.


I'm a purist and against any non-vanilla changes. But things like Boss HP/Dmg should be on the table if it preserves the historical difficulty of Vanilla WOW Raiding.


You want to preserve historical difficulty of vanilla wow raiding? get a lobotomy.
I was on board with instance tuning originally, then I realized i just want Naxx gear and PvP :D
I think people are putting too much focus on the wrong aspect of Vanilla raiding.

The fights are pretty simple, they're not all that complex, there's only a few mechanics. Sure. The difficulty is in the preparation, and having enough people in your 40 man that aren't absolutely abysmal.

But everyone is vastly underestimating just how bad, selfish, and ridiculous people are. You'll have people quitting over loot (remember 2-4 drops per boss, for 40 people!) all the time, people quitting over drama with other people (50~ people in the roster means there's a lot of conflicting and clashing personalities). You'll need to bring new people in. No catch-up mechanics. Gotta gear em up through MC/BWL/AQ etc.

Also, people are just plain bad. There's gonna be people that are good and adept, sure, there's going to be guilds that have only, or very close to only, good players in them. But then the rest are going to be saddled with the bad players, the ones that can't manage to do the simplest of multitasking, but have to be taken for buffs, for their utility, etc.

I GMd a Vanilla guild through MC, and raided through BWL and some of AQ40 about ~2 years ago. I think if the player representation on private servers is going to be reflective of what the official realms will offer, people are going to be surprised at how annoyingly difficult some of even the easier fights will be because people are inept.

Had people consistently dying in MC to AoE, others unable to decurse promptly, not dispelling fast enough, not switching fast enough. And these are all people that had jobs. They were adults. They had jobs. They could and did drive 1+ton machines daily. The simple fact is that the majority of people are just not that great.

There are for sure gonna be people that make guilds, get the best people, and fly through the content. I'd honestly be surprised if there were not. But I don't think that's going to be true of everyone.
11/28/2017 01:48 AMPosted by Paranoia
11/28/2017 01:26 AMPosted by Frostchi
...

I'm a purist and against any non-vanilla changes. But things like Boss HP/Dmg should be on the table if it preserves the historical difficulty of Vanilla WOW Raiding.


You want to preserve historical difficulty of vanilla wow raiding? get a lobotomy.


I think in terms of boss difficulty not logistics. Now this is all assuming that people are better now. It will be sad to see an MC clear within a month.
I think many people are confusing classic experience with nostalgia. Getting this server and raiding on it is not about reliving the experience of first learning how to raid. Does everyone forget that Blizzard opened new servers during Vanilla and new guilds would steamroll through the raids?

For many guilds that have are experience the content will be easy. For others, it will be an incredible social and logistical challenge. Naxx will still be incredibly difficult and I predict very few guilds will full clear it.
11/28/2017 07:42 AMPosted by Jentso
I think many people are confusing classic experience with nostalgia. Getting this server and raiding on it is not about reliving the experience of first learning how to raid. Does everyone forget that Blizzard opened new servers during Vanilla and new guilds would steamroll through the raids?

For many guilds that have are experience the content will be easy. For others, it will be an incredible social and logistical challenge. Naxx will still be incredibly difficult and I predict very few guilds will full clear it.


I think you're right about Naxx - however I think most people would like to experience some sort of pre-Naxx progression. Yes, Cthun and Emps will be tough but if MC, BWL, AQ20, ZG and most of AQ40 are not there for people to mindlessly farm for gear to be able to do Naxx, it'll be disappointing.
11/28/2017 07:53 AMPosted by Origional
11/28/2017 07:42 AMPosted by Jentso
I think many people are confusing classic experience with nostalgia. Getting this server and raiding on it is not about reliving the experience of first learning how to raid. Does everyone forget that Blizzard opened new servers during Vanilla and new guilds would steamroll through the raids?

For many guilds that have are experience the content will be easy. For others, it will be an incredible social and logistical challenge. Naxx will still be incredibly difficult and I predict very few guilds will full clear it.


I think you're right about Naxx - however I think most people would like to experience some sort of pre-Naxx progression.


Neither of us can speak for most people. My stance is to leave classic the way it is as to capture as much of the classic experience as possible. I know the fights. I know how difficult they should be with a certain level of gear. I don't want a new game.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum