What would prevent me from resubbing

Classic Discussion
I would like to preface this, by stating that this post is only what the topic says it is. What would prevent me, personally, from resubbbing for Classic World of Warcraft.

I don't mind discussing my opinion, or people attempting to change my mind, but this is simply my opinion. I don't intend for this to be a statement of "If you disagree with me, then you are wrong". Again, this is simply my opinion, and cannot therefore be wrong or right in any way. It is simply a list of changes that, if implemented in Classic World of Warcraft, would stop me from resubbing at this time.

So I will begin by stating that if Classic was implemented directly, with no alterations of any kind, I will absolutely be resubbing. No doubt about it.

I actually began my WoW Career a bit earlier than most people. I was originally a part of the late stages of closed beta you see. That's just some background on myself, and it absolutely doesn't mean my opinion is any important than anyone else's, even someone who just started playing the game. WoW didn't start my MMO career (I played UO and EQ prior to WoW) but WoW was by and far my favorite game in the world, and I knew that immediately when I first signed in to closed beta.

I played, since closed beta, all the way up and until the talent changes in Cataclysm. For me personally, that was the end. Many of my friends dropped off around that time as well, for the same reason. There were definitely additions that were made prior to Cataclysm (During Wrath of the Lich King), that I absolutely hated. The talent changes were simply the straw that broke the camels back. Again, I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else, or that my opinion is more important. Just trying to give people some indication of where I am coming from, and provide Blizzard with some feedback on why I left this wonderful game.

So, onto the list, and again I have to state, I'm not saying this is how anyone else should feel about the game. This is simply what will prevent me from resubbing again.

1.) Anything past patch 1.12.2* is not Classic, and will therefore keep me from subbing.
*Small caveat here: I'm not completely opposed 100% to 2.0.1, but the problem I see happening is that the added abilities to the classes in the content patch would cause issues with balance in the game content. Which means things (especially end game raid content) would end up needing buffs. To me that just seems like a huge sticky ball of wax.

2.) LFD/LFR tools, if implemented the way they are, would keep me from subbing. This is a huge sticking point for me. When LFD was released during WotLK, it marked the beginning of a slow death of my server's community. People stopped talking, they just ran through the dungeons as quickly as possible.

Everyone got teleported directly into the dungeon, some people had never even been to the dungeon entrance before, and didn't know the mechanics. They just knew they had quests to complete inside the dungeon. Sometimes we make mistakes when we are learning dungeons, sometimes those mistakes result in a wipe. That's okay, but if you don't know where the dungeon entrance is, you are going to have a hard time getting back into the dungeon in many cases. I got really sick of waiting for people who were new to the dungeon, to just find the entrance after a wipe. The irony being that if we had just formed a group and ran in the normal way, this wouldn't have been an issue at all.

As for cross-realm, I'm sorry, it's just terrible. It removes any impact from the community, it removes the self-policing, the growing friendships. It removed a part of my agency in deciding who I did and didn't want to play with. It only got worse as time went on. That was eventually why I stopped using the tool completely. It was impossible to add all of the jerks, who wouldn't listen to the group or interact with us in any way, to my ignore list.

If you want to have a Looking For Group tool, where people can queue up in it, and then people looking for another DPS/Tank/Healer can browse through it by class/type/etc, and then manually invite that person (or even click a button in the tool), then I would be fine with that. We had something similar at one point, but I don't think anyone really used it. Maybe take that idea and just make it better, but please don't make it cross-realm, please don't make it auto-invite. Build a tool that promotes people making long term bonds on the same server and I'd be okay with that.

3.) Talent trees, probably the biggest of all sticking points for me. It HAS to be a real talent tree. Again it comes down to player agency. I remember a term that got thrown around a lot by Blizzard back in the day "Interesting Choices". It meant a lot to me that I was able to make mistakes in my build. It was my build. I got to play with it, tweak it, and see what worked (and not so much) for my playstyle. The way it is currently, there is no wrong answer at all, ever... I dislike it heavily. I can no longer make those "Interesting Choices" because they are already made for me. I don't want a color by numbers, hold my hand through speccing, experience. I want to color outside of the lines when the mood strikes me.

4.) Please keep gear farming. People need to run those dungeons, learn those dungeons, and learn their class. It's what teaches people to do the end game PVE content. It's a form of training, and it's a necessary process for anyone not looking to simply get carried through the end game content. I realize there were other ways to get epics than just dungeons, but the grind was still there for those pieces too. I want a sense of accomplishment. I want to feel like I earned what I have. Please keep this around. I feel like the drop system was important the way it was, and I don't think individualized loot is the answer. It probably won't keep me from subbing though as long as the grind is still there and it still "feels" Classic.

5.) The playstyle from Classic World of Warcraft absolutely needs to be the same. In all honesty, when it comes to balance, I don't care about the numbers themselves, as long as the stats are the same. For instance, I can't tell you what my strength score on my warrior was in Classic, but I understood how the stats worked, what gear I wanted, and that capping defense was important. All of those original stats should remain, and work the same, even if the numbers themselves are different on gear, or the caps are different. To summarize, I want the same "feel" for playstyle, if the numbers aren't exactly what they were, I likely won't even notice.

The same goes for the classes themselves. I don't want to roll a warrior and find that Thunder Clap works completely different than how it used to. To discover that I no longer need to use Revenge or Sunder Armor to build threat. That would be a no go for me personally. If the amount of damage done changes slightly one way or the other then I don't care so much. So again, I don't really care about the numbers. If the numbers need to be adjusted because things need to be balanced better, then I simply have no skin in that argument.

6.) Leveling should feel the same as in Classic World of Warcraft. Again, I don't care about exact numbers. The method for leveling should be the same, the quests and mob grinding should all feel the same. Leveling your professions should feel the same.

7.) All of the raid content should look and feel the same as it did as well. Exact numbers don't matter much to me (I'm sure people can see a trend here), or whether it's slightly harder, or slightly more difficult. All that matters is that the bosses use the abilities and that we get the same feeling of accomplishment from downing them.

As for transmog, graphics or anything else that doesn't effect the way the Classic game felt. I just don't care.

Again, I just want to reiterate, that if we get Classic WoW, as it existed as of patch 1.12.2, I will sub. If we get something that feels exactly like Classic WoW, only with numbers tweaked on the back end (things that people aren't likely to notice in other words), then I will sub. If we get the current World of Warcraft with simply a Classic skin on it, then I won't resub.

And again, I want to reiterate, this is what will bring me back to World of Warcraft. Everyone else is entitled to their own opinion.

TLDR:

Releasing Classic WoW patch 1.12.2 will make me instantly resub. The closer Blizzard keeps it to the original Classic World of Warcraft, the more likely I am to resub. I feel like there is a little wiggle room, as long as the changes aren't noticeable.

Thanks for reading, and feel free to try and change my opinion, engage me in discussion (because it needs to be a discussion) and/or call me a noob. :)

PS: Yes, I had to resub for a month in order to make this post, I felt like it's important enough of an issue to be heard by Blizzard on one of their official mediums of communication with their player base. If it costs me a measly 15 dollars to make that happen, so be it. So technically, I resubbed to make this post and particpate in the discussion. It won't last though if Classic turns out to be New World of Warcraft with a Classic skin.
I'll bump for justice.
Fantastic post OP. You tell Blizzard what you think and you speak about becoming a customer again.

The others screaming no changes can learn from you.
Your wallet, technically.
11/15/2017 01:36 PMPosted by Palemane
1.) Anything past patch 1.12.2* is not Classic, and will therefore keep me from subbing.
*Small caveat here: I'm not completely opposed 100% to 2.0.1, but the problem I see happening is that the added abilities to the classes in the content patch would cause issues with balance in the game content. Which means things (especially end game raid content) would end up needing buffs. To me that just seems like a huge sticky ball of wax.
Have you read 2.0.1 patch notes? Obviously the talent changes are intended for TBC, no one can legitimately argue against that.

However, the class changes like warlocks getting increased range to drain life and drain mana could be interpreted as a late vanilla change or TBC change and other class changes are in that boat. So it's easier to throw out most the class changes of that patch but each should be considered on a one-by-one basis for inclusion.

But explain to me how bug fixes in 2.0.1 like "The Rend Blackhand arena event in Upper Blackrock Spire will now properly reset after a wipe." is TBC content? Oh yeah, UBRS is a vanilla raid that had a bug and it was fixed in 2.0.1. Guess what, other things in vanilla weren't fixed until years later too.

Even 2.0.3 had a change that should have made it into vanilla, "The energy gained from 'Thistle Tea' now decreases with levels past 40." But it didn't because the major classic rogue update didn't even happen until 1.12! It was literally the last to be fixed and had the shortest time with 2.0.1 not too far behind.

All this "nothing past 1.12.2" talk is so narrow-sighted. I didn't feel like they finally implemented all of the things that had intended to be in the original release until Cata. That is because Tol Barad finally became what they promised and advertised Alterac Valley would be. If it was intended to be in vanilla, it should at least not be immediately thrown out because of a patch number.
99% agree.
I plan on subbing only if no major changes are made.
Yeah, not even drop percentages, trade skill level time, nothing......no changes please.

I want it to be a pain in the @$$, that was the charm, it needs to be there.
11/15/2017 02:14 PMPosted by Sargeria
Have you read 2.0.1 patch notes? Obviously the talent changes are intended for TBC, no one can legitimately argue against that.

However, the class changes like warlocks getting increased range to drain life and drain mana could be interpreted as a late vanilla change or TBC change and other class changes are in that boat. So it's easier to throw out most the class changes of that patch but each should be considered on a one-by-one basis for inclusion.

But explain to me how bug fixes in 2.0.1 like "The Rend Blackhand arena event in Upper Blackrock Spire will now properly reset after a wipe." is TBC content? Oh yeah, UBRS is a vanilla raid that had a bug and it was fixed in 2.0.1. Guess what, other things in vanilla weren't fixed until years later too.

Even 2.0.3 had a change that should have made it into vanilla, "The energy gained from 'Thistle Tea' now decreases with levels past 40." But it didn't because the major classic rogue update didn't even happen until 1.12! It was literally the last to be fixed and had the shortest time with 2.0.1 not too far behind.

All this "nothing past 1.12.2" talk is so narrow-sighted. I didn't feel like they finally implemented all of the things that had intended to be in the original release until Cata. That is because Tol Barad finally became what they promised and advertised Alterac Valley would be. If it was intended to be in vanilla, it should at least not be immediately thrown out because of a patch number.


Yes I have, in fact, I went and looked the patch notes back up, saw things that fit what I would define as bug-fixes and patches to the base game, that could definitely be applied to Classic. That's exactly why I put that caveat there. Maybe I didn't word it clearly enough. I honestly didn't want to turn the wall of text into a raid boss. :P

So, the caveat being there, was to imply that I wouldn't be opposed to the entire patch going in, but that it would definitely be a lot of work to correct the imbalances that would occur after, specifically in end game raids. I'm not a hardcore PVPer, I always played on PVP Servers, because I love random World PVP. I think PVP is definitely fun. That being said, I'm not the guy to talk to about PVP. I could see those patches having some wonky effects on PVP as well.

Now, if what you are suggesting is, take the bits and pieces that make sense (sense to include as balance for Classic) from patches that happened in early TBC, I don't see much of an issue with that. :)

EDIT:

Also, as for Tol-Barad, you know, I honestly wouldn't have any issues with Classic eventually getting some additional content, especially content that didn't invalidate any previous progression and it fits well with Classic thematically as well as lore wise. Does the current Tol-Barad fit Classic? I don't think it does honestly. It's not like it was a land untouched by the Cataclysm itself. If it was a "new area" that was an addition to Classic, in which we had to go fight the Black Tooth Grin clan? Sure, why not? Could it resemble current Tol-Barad in a pre-cataclysm sort of way? Sure, why not?

Honestly, though, I feel like Classic as we left it is enough to scratch that itch for several years. Certainly it would make sense to possibly add content to it further down the line, and perhaps even do it in a way that doesn't invalidate the years of effort spent up until that point. How many people felt good during TBC, replacing their awesome looking epic gear with quest greens? I know I didn't.

It's obviously another way for Blizzard to grow the game, and I think that's fine. I just feel like it would need to be handled carefully this time around, and maybe we could keep the original fanbase around for longer than three expansions. :P
Guys Blizzard doesn't even have the team selected yet that will handle this.

There is just no one to hand this information to yet.
Well, having unbalanced classes like back in the day (which was horrible) would prevent me from resubbing. I wanna main an enhancement shammy or a ret paladin, and this time I don't feel like tolerating the BS people threw on us.
11/15/2017 02:57 PMPosted by Gaelkar
Well, having unbalanced classes like back in the day (which was horrible) would prevent me from resubbing. I wanna main an enhancement shammy or a ret paladin, and this time I don't feel like tolerating the BS people threw on us.


I honestly never played a Paladin in Classic. As I was primarily Horde, and the only time I played on the alliance side, I rolled a Warrior then as well. Was there really a big issue with the enhancement tree for Shaman's though? My memory may be a little fuzzy on this, but it seems like we brought plenty of enhance Shamans on raids with us, and were happy to have them.

I simply don't ever recall any of them being bad mouthed. I do however remember "lolret" being a thing, but I just assumed people were being jerks (as people will do in communities) because they thought they knew better. Was retribution DPS really so terrible it didn't warrant a raid slot?

I'm not trying to invalidate your experience, I just don't recall it being a bad thing to be an enhancement Shaman, as your experience indicates. Can you point out what the issues with enhancement were?

EDIT:
11/15/2017 02:52 PMPosted by Trickfiend
Guys Blizzard doesn't even have the team selected yet that will handle this.

There is just no one to hand this information to yet.


That's fine and good, and I understand your point, but if Blizzard didn't want our feedback I don't think they would have create a place on the forums for us to discuss it. Nor do I think they would have requested our feedback. In fact, I would have rather expected them to state they weren't currently ready for our feedback on the matter yet.

I realize it's a long way off, but it doesn't hurt for people to voice their opinion, and then discuss those opinions (hopefully in a constructive manner), even with it being a long way off. I'm sure constructive dialogue on what people want to see in Classic is beneficial to Blizzard in the long run, regardless as to how far off it is. :)
Even tho I do not agree with everything, this is a nice post and I think you can get why vanilla should remain intact and it's purest form.

Keep classic as classic

11/15/2017 02:57 PMPosted by Gaelkar
Well, having unbalanced classes like back in the day (which was horrible) would prevent me from resubbing. I wanna main an enhancement shammy or a ret paladin, and this time I don't feel like tolerating the BS people threw on us.


Dude this was not bs at all, if you were really a vanilla fans, you would understand why we want to keep it intact and not changed at all. If you change anything it is going to affect the gameplay, the atmosphere and modify vanilla to make it looks like another game. this is pointless how can you get it if you say yourself a vanilla fan.

Keep vanilla as it was back then period.
11/15/2017 03:54 PMPosted by Faradramir
Dude this was not bs at all, if you were really a vanilla fans, you would understand why we want to keep it intact and not changed at all. If you change anything it is going to affect the gameplay, the atmosphere and modify vanilla to make it looks like another game. this is pointless how can you get it if you say yourself a vanilla fan.

Keep vanilla as it was back then period.


I still don't remember enhancement Shamans getting crapped on in general. Am I really just not remembering? I mean, everyone got crapped on (and I'm sure still get crapped on) at some point or another. Not trying to toot my own horn, but I was a damn good Warrior tank in Classic (I call it vanilla too, just trying to use Blizzard's terminology here) as well as damn good Death Knight tank in Wrath. I got shat on by people sometimes. Healer's claiming I was too hard to heal, or DPS not watching their own threat and then blaming the healer for not healing them or the tank for not keeping aggro off of them.

It happened. I just shrugged and told myself "haters gonna hate" and that was it.

I remember "lolret" being a thing, but again, as a endgame horde raider I didn't really know why it was a thing. I also don't recall enhancement Shamans being terrible at all. Am I wrong? Can anyone clarify for me?
11/15/2017 01:36 PMPosted by Palemane
As for transmog, graphics or anything else that doesn't effect the way the Classic game felt. I just don't care.


Transmogs should not be in the classic. Many people like being able to see what gear someone had by looking at them.
The primary cause of lolret was the same as the root of huntard-there were a lot of them and most were just terrible. You couldn't take 2 steps in SW/IF without tripping over a ret and odds were good if you had one in your group they had no clue what to do beyond run in and swing away. Wrong auras, wrong blessings, wrong judgements, you name it they did it wrong.

Was their DPS not top tier in raids? Yes, their DPS was not top tier in a raid setting for the most part (not so much in parts of Naxx). However, a well-played ret was much less of a burden than a poorly played mage, rogue, or any other class putting out the same numbers. The number of fights where DPS actually mattered can be counted on 1 hand with fingers left over.

As for the topic at hand, I'm pretty similar to the OP. Give me recognizable difficulty, the same base mechanics, and recognizable talents and class balance and I'm golden. Give me LFD, arenas, flying, an attempt at all specs balanced for all content, and things of that ilk and I'm back to the Blizzard gets no more of my money position the falsehoods about "We know, and we'll be better about balancing things" before Legion put me...
11/15/2017 04:13 PMPosted by Bynírn
11/15/2017 01:36 PMPosted by Palemane
As for transmog, graphics or anything else that doesn't effect the way the Classic game felt. I just don't care.


Transmogs should not be in the classic. Many people like being able to see what gear someone had by looking at them.


I understand your point on the matter, and I don't necessarily disagree with you, but honestly I just don't care enough about them one way or the other for it to matter to me. It's simply not a hill worth dying on, in my opinion. I respect that it may be for you however. :)

11/15/2017 04:18 PMPosted by Ellilaine
The primary cause of lolret was the same as the root of huntard-there were a lot of them and most were just terrible. You couldn't take 2 steps in SW/IF without tripping over a ret and odds were good if you had one in your group they had no clue what to do beyond run in and swing away. Wrong auras, wrong blessings, wrong judgements, you name it they did it wrong.

Was their DPS not top tier in raids? Yes, their DPS was not top tier in a raid setting for the most part (not so much in parts of Naxx). However, a well-played ret was much less of a burden than a poorly played mage, rogue, or any other class putting out the same numbers. The number of fights where DPS actually mattered can be counted on 1 hand with fingers left over.


And see, this is the same thing that I remembered in regards to enhancement Shaman, minus the whole "lolret", "huntard" shtick that went with it. If you knew your class, knew how to make the numbers work for you, could prove you knew what you were doing... you got brought to raids. That's how my guild did it, that's how every guild I've ever been in did it. The only time I can recall DPS mattering so much in a fight, was when you had to beat an enrage timer, and I don't recall their being a whole lot of those in Vanilla. Seems to be that TBC had more?

Even then, I don't think DPS mattered so much that you had to have every slot of your 40 man playing only the classes that always topped charts, and even then you were probably lucky if you got 40 people that were really that great at their class.

I am certain there where guilds out there that min/maxed to the hardest hardcore extremes, and expected to wipe 3 times on a boss before they had it down and beat, but that wasn't my guild, and I doubt it was even the majority.

The point was, a body was more valuable than no body at the end of the day in most cases (as long as you weren't pulling a Leroy Jenkins or getting feared into the whelp eggs, lol) and if you were good at your class there was no reason not to bring someone along on a raid. All of the specs had value, they all contributed somehow.
Guess today's announcement once again confirms that you're getting subbed OP :)

A nuance:
11/15/2017 01:36 PMPosted by Palemane
All of the raid content should look and feel the same as it did as well. Exact numbers don't matter much to me (I'm sure people can see a trend here), or whether it's slightly harder, or slightly more difficult. All that matters is that the bosses use the abilities and that we get the same feeling of accomplishment from downing them.

You're unlikely to get the same feeling of accomplishment with all the current knowledge sadly. 1.1 or 1.12, early raids are a joke, since everyone already knows what to farm and what to press. On the other hand, you can try to find a guild where people don't bother googling :)

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