Why we need class balancing with Wow Classic

Classic Discussion
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The only class balancing that exists should be the class balancing that took place in Vanilla. Nothing more.

Your example of feral druid DPS is a terrible one, since Vanilla players have found a way to make feral DPS very good. Those playing retail will never be able to figure it out so just google it. The classes are balanced around being niche roles fillers. That was class balance in Vanilla and there should be nothing more.
11/16/2017 06:36 AMPosted by Laudis
It's not about what I want it to be, it is about what is fair.


Vanilla certainly isn't about things being fair. You'll feel deeply and personally wronged for most of the experience.
11/16/2017 06:36 AMPosted by Laudis
It's not about what I want it to be, it is about what is fair.


It's not meant to be about fair though.

When you restore something - you restore it as is. You don't restore it and then paint it a new color. If you did it would be more like an upgrade

Either Blizzard choses to restore vanilla - or bring back a upgraded version of vanilla.

The legacy movement is about vanilla as it was back then. These are the people who will be playing vanilla even when current WOW release a new expansion. These are the people whom probably will never steep foot inside current WOW.

Now if you biggest playerbase is going to be the current retail crowd then sure - cater towards them. But I bet they will prefer to spend most of their time (if not all) in current WOW.

11/16/2017 07:20 AMPosted by Sabever
Your example of feral druid DPS is a terrible one, since Vanilla players have found a way to make feral DPS very good.


Actually a few players have made feral druids and ret paladin much more "viable" than was originally thought possible - especially back in vanilla days.

With todays social community and theorycrafting techniques we may see even more new talent builds of classes that weren't publicly know back in 2004
11/16/2017 06:36 AMPosted by Laudis
It's not about what I want it to be, it is about what is fair.

It is not fair, that someone who wants to tank in Classic isn't able to because they do not have a taunt button. It isn't fair that if someone has leveled a Boomkin, they are then relegated to healing at max level.

All I am saying is there needs to be a discussion about class changed that should be looked at.


First off, not an argument. I could say it's not fair that I can't tank on a mage.
Also, lack of taunt is only ONE problem that made paladins not viable. A big thing is mana. You can't just make small tweaks, you'd have to make a bunch of changes then all of a sudden the entire game is thrown out of whack.

And another thing, you're focus is on raid balance only. Why does everyone do this? Classes weren't balanced around raids in Vanilla. And also what class you leveled as is irrelevant, because you most likely are not going to be leveling the same spec as the one you play on max. Try leveling as a prot warrior, I dare you.
11/16/2017 06:36 AMPosted by Laudis
It's not about what I want it to be, it is about what is fair.

It is not fair, that someone who wants to tank in Classic isn't able to because they do not have a taunt button. It isn't fair that if someone has leveled a Boomkin, they are then relegated to healing at max level.

All I am saying is there needs to be a discussion about class changed that should be looked at.


If you want “fair” then go play retail, let us play the real Vanilla.
BTW Demonology raiding spec is 10x better than Affliction....
11/16/2017 07:03 AMPosted by Fallanaa
11/16/2017 06:54 AMPosted by Twelver
Fallanaa, how does it make you feel to know that Blizzard invited the Nostalrius team to meet in person at Blizzard HQ?

You can read about it here: http://www.pcgamer.com/nostalrius-pm-reports-back-on-blizzard-meeting/

Interested in your reaction.

Regards,
Twelver

Read that back when it happened.

It was a PR move then, to placate the drooling, raging private server plebs.

Private servers have no place in this discussion, as WoW: Classic does not mean Nostalgius.

WoW: Classic is an opportunity for Blizzard to make a refined Vanilla experience. Arduous leveling, professions that made a difference, no cross-server tools, elemental resistances, ammo bags, class trainers, long talent trees, the pre-Cata world...

They should keep the spirit and feeling intact, but there should be some changes made to make Classic the game it could have been without turning it into Legion.

Was this a PR move too?


Has Blizzard maintained a relationship with the people behind the unofficial legacy servers? I know the Nostalrius guys visited Blizzard at one point.

J. Allen Brack: We've talked to Daemon and Viper, the leads for that project, a handful of times since that visit.

Do you see them being more heavily involved in WOW Classic?

J. Allen Brack: We would welcome their involvement, for sure. I think one of the challenges is that they're both French and so there's a little bit of a visa concern, but we'd be open to it. They're very passionate and strong Blizzard fans, clearly.

Funny how anything that doesn't mesh with your narrow perspective is irrelevant or a PR move. Sometimes I wish I could view the world like that. I imagine things would be easier if I could just invent reality to match my expectations.
11/16/2017 06:46 AMPosted by Dasrock
11/16/2017 06:45 AMPosted by Pôwder
every class has a role. every spec has a function. raids are the only place where the spec is specific. the gear is all designed around those specs. the dungeon runs leading up to the mc raid and later the zg raid and bwl raid, were designed to drop gear for those specs. all of that would have to be completely overhauled, the effects of which would be a disaster for the rest of the game.


Every spec didn’t have a function in vanilla...
Yes they did whether it was pvp or 5mans, raiding is the only place spec is important like it should
11/16/2017 07:04 AMPosted by Fallanaa
[quote]we don't want 1:1
Some changes

dont play it if you dont like it so simple
go play private server crap

bye
I can't wait to see how wrong you are and not get a lick of anything you want. You will soon learn it will be a full vanilla experience and you shall be the one to return to legion

Bye
There is an oppertunity on the table to make classic beter and go in an other linear direction. Make it a real rpg, first just start of like it was and when things settle. There will be a certain need for tanks, healers, special options in dps. So after the whole vanilla content has been absorbed and experienced, then put out a path by quests and challanges that maybe a paladin could get his taunt spell, not from the top. If there are to many tanks out there it would be Strange to set a path out like that. Stop thinking mario bross and start thinking rpg, buy a dungeon and dragon book and read the rules how it was played ages ago, around the table with Strange dices, a dungeon master telling what happened around you and interacted. But when you hitted the max level on that, you stayed that level only the challanges became harder and harder you needed to be in a bigger group. In my opinion it will be more fun to start of with a Strange spec and live the vanilla experience and let's see what happens in 2 years is it really needed to have boomkins or paladin tanks in the world, so yes it wont be for free only for the bold ones, but if you finish it you will learn that magical taunt spell
11/16/2017 06:36 AMPosted by Laudis
It's not about what I want it to be, it is about what is fair.

It is not fair, that someone who wants to tank in Classic isn't able to because they do not have a taunt button. It isn't fair that if someone has leveled a Boomkin, they are then relegated to healing at max level.

All I am saying is there needs to be a discussion about class changed that should be looked at.


If you go back 13 years and fired up wow your first thought is "I want to tank".
You picked a role first back then. Hopefully you read the documentation and saw that warriors were the tank class so you picked a warrior.

Today's wow is not the wow of 13 years ago. The RPG element was strong and drive the game more than "every class can do it all".
No...we don't need it.
11/16/2017 06:36 AMPosted by Laudis
It's not about what I want it to be, it is about what is fair.

[/quote]

It's not fair to have to walk 2 minutes to the zep, then wait 5 minutes for it, then walk another 3 minutes to get to the city you want.

It's not fair getting camped in STV for 30 minutes by the same guy.

It's not fair having specs that outdps you because they don't bring as much utility.

Life is unfair, and so is Vanilla. Attempting to make Vanilla "fairer" would only ruin it.
11/16/2017 06:37 AMPosted by Dasrock
11/16/2017 06:35 AMPosted by Armithia
OP - No....Vanilla Wow isn't for new players to get hand held. If they can't play the game as I did in 2004 then they need to stay in BoA. It's that simple, Vanilla is meant for people that want to play Vanilla again.

No changes....Patch progression as it was on release...


Honestly, even old players would not last long if they don’t actively balance the game.

I don’t think people remember how bad vanilla was in terms of balance.


This is a lie, nost had 800K acounts and people still played it with how it was back then. Blizzard have over millions of accounts back in those days. Vanilla servers would be a thing if people stoped trying to change what the legacy comunity wants. Not a waterd down version of vanilla.
11/16/2017 09:06 AMPosted by Wombaet
There is an oppertunity on the table to make classic beter and go in an other linear direction. Make it a real rpg, first just start of like it was and when things settle. There will be a certain need for tanks, healers, special options in dps. So after the whole vanilla content has been absorbed and experienced, then put out a path by quests and challanges that maybe a paladin could get his taunt spell, not from the top. If there are to many tanks out there it would be Strange to set a path out like that. Stop thinking mario bross and start thinking rpg, buy a dungeon and dragon book and read the rules how it was played ages ago, around the table with Strange dices, a dungeon master telling what happened around you and interacted. But when you hitted the max level on that, you stayed that level only the challanges became harder and harder you needed to be in a bigger group. In my opinion it will be more fun to start of with a Strange spec and live the vanilla experience and let's see what happens in 2 years is it really needed to have boomkins or paladin tanks in the world, so yes it wont be for free only for the bold ones, but if you finish it you will learn that magical taunt spell


No changes to vanilla, we want it as it was when released.
Jack of all Trades classes were masters of none in Classic.

If you want to be the best healer, roll a priest.
If you want to be the best tank, roll a warrior.
If you want to have the best DPS, roll a pure DPS class.

Hybrid classes should not over shine a pure class.
11/16/2017 07:08 AMPosted by Ezekiêl
11/16/2017 06:55 AMPosted by Edarias
...

You didnt answer my question about patches, and calling me childish is just deflection. If you're suggesting a melange of 1.1 to 1.12 then you blew it, preservation is out the window.

But I think I understand now that you want is an emulation of vanilla wow, and sure I can accept that.


For me personally, I would just start with the 1.12 talents and release the raid content on a timeline. the only alternative would be to do patch progression and I think both you and I would agree that it would be too complicated for blizzard to not completely screw the pooch over.

The best solution, IMO, is to start with the final talent builds and just release raids on a timeline and have the major events like the AQ opening and the Naxx -pre-event on yearly timers. Like a holiday event.


This is no different than what the private servers did that people already play for free..
11/16/2017 09:42 AMPosted by Uglük

This is no different than what the private servers did that people already play for free..


You're not wrong. But the majority of people won't touch them because its not an official blizzard offering. And I'm one of them. I don't find the idea of playing on a server that could 1: vanish at any time, 2: subject to pay to win or have a pay shop, or 3: server admins run off with the donation money to Montenegro. [edit] or allow the chinese to buy their way onto the server to sell gold, or sell rank14 characters, etc, etc, etc.

An official blizzard classic realm is the only viable option for the hundreds of thousands of us who Really want them.
11/16/2017 06:30 AMPosted by Laudis
Like everyone, I am excited for WoW Classic, I think it will be an amazing addition to the roster of games we have available.

However, it is not fair for those who want to play their class fantasy from WoW Vanilla if that spec is completely broken.

It does not allow new players to play the class they desire in the way they desire. Why should a druid be relegated to a healer when they have the ability to shape shift and do damage? If they have a talent tree for doing damage, then they should have the viable option to utilize their class to that talent tree.

It also pigeon-holes people into a certain role. Druids and Paladins would always be healers, Warlocks had to go affliction. It does not allow for people to experience the class fantasy that the original WoW Vanilla provided.

For example, giving taunt to Paladins would be a good move, since they did not have taunt in Vanilla, and this would allow Paladins to more efficiently tank. Even if it means they are not able to tank end game, they can still fill the tank role more easily for leveling dungeons.

I am not talking about anything set in stone, bit I think we need to discuss certain changes that will need to be made to certain classes so everyone can enjoy WoW Classic to its potential.


learn this lesson - fat people aren't track stars for a reason.

The potential enjoyment of wow classic was picking a class and role you wanted to play. Choose accordingly. Class imbalances gave every class something they were good at and generally, at least one class you could be strong against and one class you could be weak against. Class imbalances force people to work together to achieve things in game whether they are pvp or pve and to seek each other out for those purposes.

All classes have their roles to play in different circumstances just like people. People that have different aptitudes and skills/training. Pick a bloody class that fits the skill set and training you want to play and stop asking to change vanilla. The people who really fought for classic/legacy realms from Nost and other non-blizzard servers fought for vanilla. If things like that are changed, they will likely go right back to private servers.

If you want to live your dream spec of anything you want, go play the current live/retail version.
However, it is not fair for those who want to play their class fantasy from WoW Vanilla if that spec is completely broken.

It does not allow new players to play the class they desire in the way they desire.

So you're saying people will have expectations, that will not be met, and therefor the game should be changed....

... Instead of people adjusting their expectations?

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with classes "not being as viable as others" so long as people are aware of it from the start.

That said, I keep hearing most of these things really weren't as underperforming as people like to claim.

In other words, you're literally just asking "Buff my damage plz".

Why should a druid be relegated to a healer when they have the ability to shape shift and do damage? If they have a talent tree for doing damage, then they should have the viable option to utilize their class to that talent tree.

They do.

It also pigeon-holes people into a certain role.

Imagine that, classes having unique roles that they excell at. Best to homogenize everything right?

It does not allow for people to experience the class fantasy that the original WoW Vanilla provided.

?... Doesn't it provide EXACTLY the class fantasy that the original WoW vanilla provided?

Otherwise you wouldn't be asking for changes. You're not asking for vanilla WoW to provide the class fantasy that vanilla provided. You're asking for buffs to be more viable.

For example, giving taunt to Paladins would be a good move,

No, it wouldn't. AT ALL. That's called homogenization, giving every tank the same toolset so they are all exactly equal.

That's exactly what ruined so many class fantasies in the first place.

Even if it means they are not able to tank end game, they can still fill the tank role more easily for leveling dungeons.

They can already do that.

"more easily".

You are literally just asking for buffs because you want to have a more casual, face-roll time.

Why not ask for heirlooms on top of it?

Threat in early dungeons isn't just a case of a tank's toolset, it's also a matter of DPS taking care not to get agro. It's a team effort.

I think we need to discuss certain changes that will need to be made to certain classes so everyone can enjoy WoW Classic to its potential.

If you don't enjoy paladin, don't roll paladin.

I'm pretty certain there are plenty of players who DO enjoy paladin, shaman, druid, and priest exactly as they were.

Why would you want to ruin THEIR class fantasy?

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