NO to Class Balancing/Changes

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Vanilla in its release was definitely not perfect, and its clear that they realized this by all the small patch nerfs and buffs blizzard made throughout the course of Vanilla. I would say that blizzard did a pretty good job when it came to PVP, but for that exact reason blizzard implemented a status template in legion PVP (6 expansions later) to compensate for the clear tilts PVE balances had in PVP. To that same argument players are still not happy even in legion with class balances, therefore adding to the fact that blizzard just CANT balance classes. What is being released is a game that has rough edges, theyre not baby-proofing corners here, certain things werent added to vanilla that they added later on in future expansions, a concept that further indicates that blizzard WILL not add them in the future of World of warcraft:Classic because otherwise they would be releasing Legion all over again.
11/26/2017 08:30 PMPosted by Sfzrx
11/26/2017 08:28 PMPosted by Ellilaine


News flash: Warriors weren't intended to do top DPS when well geared. That was a result of a lack of foresight in the design of the rage mechanic.


Then why not fix that? What's wrong with you people going I like cheeseburgers despite the cheese smell like !@#$, why not fix that cheese.


Personally, I wouldn't be all that averse to the idea because it would make levelling a warrior suck a lot less as you'd actually have rage to press buttons.

However, that wouldn't alter the real issue the majority of the ones calling for class balance have, which is their pet spec is intended to do notably less damage/healing or be lesser tanks than other specs in the same role. The underlying design was different classes are different and have strengths and weaknesses not the later iteration of bring the player not the class, and the even later all specs capable of performing a role should be basically equivalent at it.
11/26/2017 08:36 PMPosted by Frostchi
11/26/2017 08:34 PMPosted by Sfzrx
VANILLA MEANS BALANCE! I'll give you caps too. This is the balance vanilla deserved if TBC never happened, and I will argue with you people all day to fight for this.


Lol, except Blizzard never said "Vanilla means balance" so you're 100% wrong :'(

Yell all you want but you're not going to get Franken-vanilla WOW Remastered.

Blizzard said we're getting "Authentic Vanilla" with all of its faults. "For better or worse". "Vanilla MEANS vanilla".


Except that the reason behind every patch in vanilla was about balance? Why did you think they patched the games? You think they do it for no reason? What?
11/26/2017 08:37 PMPosted by Jelyck
Vanilla in its release was definitely not perfect, and its clear that they realized this by all the small patch nerfs and buffs blizzard made throughout the course of Vanilla. I would say that blizzard did a pretty good job when it came to PVP, but for that exact reason blizzard implemented a status template in legion PVP (6 expansions later) to compensate for the clear tilts PVE balances had in PVP. To that same argument players are still not happy even in legion with class balances, therefore adding to the fact that blizzard just CANT balance classes. What is being released is a game that has rough edges, theyre not baby-proofing corners here, certain things werent added to vanilla that they added later on in future expansions, a concept that further indicates that blizzard WILL not add them in the future of World of warcraft:Classic because otherwise they would be releasing Legion all over again.


Balance in vanilla is not the same as balance in legion, legion has way more skills and 3 extra classes, vanilla balance is way easier after their a decade of balance experience, and that "blizz can't balance game" thing is pretty biased, they balanced TBC and wrath and even cata fine and I enjoyed it a lot, didn't play the rest to comment on the rest.

They don't have to have it in perfect balance after one patch either, because that's what wow has been all about, constant balance patches.
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Lol, except Blizzard never said "Vanilla means balance" so you're 100% wrong :'(

Yell all you want but you're not going to get Franken-vanilla WOW Remastered.

Blizzard said we're getting "Authentic Vanilla" with all of its faults. "For better or worse". "Vanilla MEANS vanilla".


Except that the reason behind every patch in vanilla was about balance? Why did you think they patched the games? You think they do it for no reason? What?


Actually, most of the patches were about releasing content or revamping classes to get rid of useless talents, broken abilities, or just generally polishing things up after seeing how the game played to a massive audience compared to the much smaller in-house, alpha, and beta-testing groups. There weren't any massive swings in relative balance between the classes like those all too common the last few expansions nor were there any massive buffs to "broken" specs to indicate that they actually weren't working as intended.
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Except that the reason behind every patch in vanilla was about balance? Why did you think they patched the games? You think they do it for no reason? What?


Actually, most of the patches were about releasing content or revamping classes to get rid of useless talents, broken abilities, or just generally polishing things up after seeing how the game played to a massive audience compared to the much smaller in-house, alpha, and beta-testing groups. There weren't any massive swings in relative balance between the classes like those all too common the last few expansions nor were there any massive buffs to "broken" specs to indicate that they actually weren't working as intended.


Feel free to discuss the possibility of the game launching with class specs in their 1.1 state then, and see if the majority likes it.
11/26/2017 08:45 PMPosted by Sfzrx
11/26/2017 08:37 PMPosted by Jelyck
Vanilla in its release was definitely not perfect, and its clear that they realized this by all the small patch nerfs and buffs blizzard made throughout the course of Vanilla. I would say that blizzard did a pretty good job when it came to PVP, but for that exact reason blizzard implemented a status template in legion PVP (6 expansions later) to compensate for the clear tilts PVE balances had in PVP. To that same argument players are still not happy even in legion with class balances, therefore adding to the fact that blizzard just CANT balance classes. What is being released is a game that has rough edges, theyre not baby-proofing corners here, certain things werent added to vanilla that they added later on in future expansions, a concept that further indicates that blizzard WILL not add them in the future of World of warcraft:Classic because otherwise they would be releasing Legion all over again.


Balance in vanilla is not the same as balance in legion, legion has way more skills and 3 extra classes, vanilla balance is way easier after their a decade of balance experience, and that "blizz can't balance game" thing is pretty biased, they balanced TBC and wrath and even cata fine and I enjoyed it a lot, didn't play the rest to comment on the rest.

They don't have to have it in perfect balance after one patch either, because that's what wow has been all about, constant balance patches.


Oh? Ive got a pretty decent amount of pvp experience on my character, ive PVP'd throughout the expansions, one of the things I am fully aware of is flavor of the month specs for blizzard in pvp. I also know some tanks who are fully committed to the PVE scene, these players have every type of tank currently available in legion fully maxed, fully unlocked Artifact weapons (throughout legion), ready to go in the likely case that Blizzard DID over play a specific tank spec. "Flavor of the month," I didnt just make up that phrase and im sure you've heard of that before (if you play WoW). That is why i can state that blizzard hasn't been able to balance WoW even to this day. RBGs will continue to stack optimal healer choices, raids will continue to stack optimal spec classes, and now that buffs are now but expunged, players have all the more reason not to bring certain specs that are undervalued in both PVP and PVE.
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Actually, most of the patches were about releasing content or revamping classes to get rid of useless talents, broken abilities, or just generally polishing things up after seeing how the game played to a massive audience compared to the much smaller in-house, alpha, and beta-testing groups. There weren't any massive swings in relative balance between the classes like those all too common the last few expansions nor were there any massive buffs to "broken" specs to indicate that they actually weren't working as intended.


Feel free to discuss the possibility of the game launching with class specs in their 1.1 state then, and see if the majority likes it.


Also, I believe you are absolutely right, vanilla during its time has been changing throughout its cycle and therefore you're not wrong that vanilla WAS changing constantly. However, as i stated above, certain attributes, certain additions to the game weren't added till much later expansions, and considering blizzard is releasing Classic World of Warcraft, it is safe to assume that blizzard wont be implementing those same additions to the Classic scenes from other Expansions.

Edit: Balancing vanilla WASNT easy, because certain things didnt exist that MADE it easier to balance in later expansions.
11/26/2017 08:45 PMPosted by Sfzrx
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Balance in vanilla is not the same as balance in legion, legion has way more skills and 3 extra classes, vanilla balance is way easier after their a decade of balance experience, and that "blizz can't balance game" thing is pretty biased, they balanced TBC and wrath and even cata fine and I enjoyed it a lot, didn't play the rest to comment on the rest.

They don't have to have it in perfect balance after one patch either, because that's what wow has been all about, constant balance patches.


Oh? Ive got a pretty decent amount of pvp experience on my character, ive PVP'd throughout the expansions, one of the things I am fully aware of is flavor of the month specs for blizzard in pvp. I also know some tanks who are fully committed to the PVE scene, these players have every type of tank currently available in legion fully maxed, fully unlocked Artifact weapons (throughout legion), ready to go in the likely case that Blizzard DID over play a specific tank spec. "Flavor of the month," I didnt just make up that phrase and im sure you've heard of that before (if you play WoW). That is why i can state that blizzard haven't been able to balance WoW even to this day. RBGs will continue to stack optimal healer choices, raids will continue to stack optimal spec classes, and now that buffs are now but expunged, players have all the more reason not to bring certain specs that are undervalued in both PVP and PVE.


If you looked at my achievements you'd see I have 2k experience in both 2s and 3s, and yes some classes will be stronger in arenas, but I felt competitive even when my comp wasn't the flavor of the month, in fact I got to 2k in cata with a fury warrior, which wasn't really a common spec since everyone was arms, priest/warrior wasn't common either, arena was about skills, if you were bad then playing fotm wouldn't have helped.

But what's an ele shaman gonna do in vanilla raid? Be this token thing that people bring because they can't find anymore mages, you think the group wouldn't want a mage instead? Or do you think the shaman likes being carried?
I don't think there's too much need to balance dps in Vanilla. What does need looking at however is smoothing-out some of the rough edges that exist.
- Increasing the time of Paladin blessings (Paladin's shouldn't have to spend their entire raid time as a buff bot). That is demeaning.
- Shaman totems need the effect range raised to 30 yards default, and access to the 25% mana reduction on totems on the 1st talent tier. They need the recall totems spell added in and also consolidate a few totems like WindWall and Fire Nova into the existing totem set.
- The craftable BoE gear needs to be looked at to provide some niche gear for ele shamans, boomkins, ret paladins and feral + enhance shamans that are tanking 5mans.
This would require reworking some of the Leatherworking + Blacksmithing recipes to make some of the otherwise useless BoE greens to provide

  • mp5 + spell damage for ele and boomkin
  • mp5 + stam + defense for pally tanks
  • mp5 + damage for ret
  • armor + stam + defense for feral & enhance tanks.


A lot of the issues facing classes can probably be resolved by adding in some BoE craftable gear - people seem to forget that talents are only half the picture, gear is just as important and is probably an easier way to help some classes and spec's achieve their goals.
Remember that Vanilla doesn't have such rigid class & spec roles as current retail wow does where each spec has a predetermined role.
Blizzard should encourage players to push the limits of their class by experimenting with different gear.
11/26/2017 08:50 PMPosted by Sfzrx
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Actually, most of the patches were about releasing content or revamping classes to get rid of useless talents, broken abilities, or just generally polishing things up after seeing how the game played to a massive audience compared to the much smaller in-house, alpha, and beta-testing groups. There weren't any massive swings in relative balance between the classes like those all too common the last few expansions nor were there any massive buffs to "broken" specs to indicate that they actually weren't working as intended.


Feel free to discuss the possibility of the game launching with class specs in their 1.1 state then, and see if the majority likes it.


There's a difference to debating whether the game launches with 1.1 or 1.12 (or a special mix) ----- and implementing non-vanilla class changes which you seem to be pushing for.

Yes balance changes occurred in Vanilla. The different patches represent several benchmarks that WOW:Classic could be designed around, and remain "Authentic" Vanilla. Stepping outside of those bounds however would deliver us a game that is NOT vanilla.
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Oh? Ive got a pretty decent amount of pvp experience on my character, ive PVP'd throughout the expansions, one of the things I am fully aware of is flavor of the month specs for blizzard in pvp. I also know some tanks who are fully committed to the PVE scene, these players have every type of tank currently available in legion fully maxed, fully unlocked Artifact weapons (throughout legion), ready to go in the likely case that Blizzard DID over play a specific tank spec. "Flavor of the month," I didnt just make up that phrase and im sure you've heard of that before (if you play WoW). That is why i can state that blizzard haven't been able to balance WoW even to this day. RBGs will continue to stack optimal healer choices, raids will continue to stack optimal spec classes, and now that buffs are now but expunged, players have all the more reason not to bring certain specs that are undervalued in both PVP and PVE.


If you looked at my achievements you'd see I have 2k experience in both 2s and 3s, and yes some classes will be stronger in arenas, but I felt competitive even when my comp wasn't the flavor of the month, in fact I got to 2k in cata with a fury warrior, which wasn't really a common spec since everyone was arms, priest/warrior wasn't common either, arena was about skills, if you were bad then playing fotm wouldn't have helped.

But what's an ele shaman gonna do in vanilla raid? Be this token thing that people bring because they can't find anymore mages, you think the group wouldn't want a mage instead? Or do you think the shaman likes being carried?


That is my argument also, certain specs in vanilla didnt work in PVE but was amazing in PVP (shadow priests, ret paladins, disc priests), and certain things were amazing in PVE and sucked in pvp vs its counter part (Fury vs Arms). Same with live, shadow priests being amazing in 3s and RBG but completely flopping in 2s. Blizzard will probably never make all classes viable 2s, 3s, RBG, PVE and WPVP all at the same time. Thus vanilla will most likely never have all class specs be viable in PVE and also PVP similarly. What do you think?
11/26/2017 09:01 PMPosted by Sfzrx
If you looked at my achievements you'd see I have 2k experience in both 2s and 3s


Nobody cares about your Arena Achievements on a WOW:Classic forum. Seriously get over yourself.
11/26/2017 09:08 PMPosted by Jelyck

That is my argument also, certain specs in vanilla didnt work in PVE but was amazing in PVP (shadow priests, ret paladins, disc priests), and certain things were amazing in PVE and sucked in pvp vs its counter part (Fury vs Arms). Same with live, shadow priests being amazing in 3s and RBG but completely flopping in 2s. Blizzard will probably never make all classes viable 2s, 3s, RBG, PVE and WPVP all at the same time. Thus vanilla will most likely never have all class specs be viable in PVE and also PVP similarly. What do you think?


Spriests were actually very powerful in some of the harder 5mans. I remember doing Mara with 2 SPriests as a healer and only having to heal about 1/4 of the time due to the sheer awesomeness of having 2 Vampiric Embraces in the group.

So I wouldn't write SPriests out of PVE. They only suffered because of the debuff limit on bosses so they can't use their Shadow Word - Pain spell.
11/26/2017 09:08 PMPosted by Jelyck
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If you looked at my achievements you'd see I have 2k experience in both 2s and 3s, and yes some classes will be stronger in arenas, but I felt competitive even when my comp wasn't the flavor of the month, in fact I got to 2k in cata with a fury warrior, which wasn't really a common spec since everyone was arms, priest/warrior wasn't common either, arena was about skills, if you were bad then playing fotm wouldn't have helped.

But what's an ele shaman gonna do in vanilla raid? Be this token thing that people bring because they can't find anymore mages, you think the group wouldn't want a mage instead? Or do you think the shaman likes being carried?


That is my argument also, certain specs in vanilla didnt work in PVE but was amazing in PVP (shadow priests, ret paladins, disc priests), and certain things were amazing in PVE and sucked in pvp vs its counter part (Fury vs Arms). Same with live, shadow priests being amazing in 3s and RBG but completely flopping in 2s. Blizzard will probably never make all classes viable 2s, 3s, RBG, PVE and WPVP all at the same time. Thus vanilla will most likely never have all class specs be viable in PVE and also PVP similarly. What do you think?


I'd be fine with it if they had means of getting their pvp gear, but the problem is that these “good pvp specs” need to actually get their gear from raids by playing pure healers, and obviously they are not gonna get their "offspec pvp gear" until all of the mages and warlocks in the raid get them first. Maybe if they reworked the honor system so these specs can grind the gear in bgs.
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That is my argument also, certain specs in vanilla didnt work in PVE but was amazing in PVP (shadow priests, ret paladins, disc priests), and certain things were amazing in PVE and sucked in pvp vs its counter part (Fury vs Arms). Same with live, shadow priests being amazing in 3s and RBG but completely flopping in 2s. Blizzard will probably never make all classes viable 2s, 3s, RBG, PVE and WPVP all at the same time. Thus vanilla will most likely never have all class specs be viable in PVE and also PVP similarly. What do you think?


I'd be fine with it if they had means of getting their pvp gear, but the problem is that these “good pvp specs” need to actually get their gear from raids by playing pure healers, and obviously they are not gonna get their "offspec pvp gear" until all of the mages and warlocks in the raid get them first. Maybe if they reworked the honor system so these specs can grind the gear in bgs.


I do remember some guilds bringing a balance druid of a shadow priest to raids even in MC. Sure they didnt bring a lot of them but most guilds arent racing to be server first. Also, changing the whole pvp system might be something blizzard might find too large to tackle, but I have no idea myself how they would or if they would consider it, I think blizzard should just release Vanilla as was.
11/26/2017 09:20 PMPosted by Jelyck
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I'd be fine with it if they had means of getting their pvp gear, but the problem is that these “good pvp specs” need to actually get their gear from raids by playing pure healers, and obviously they are not gonna get their "offspec pvp gear" until all of the mages and warlocks in the raid get them first. Maybe if they reworked the honor system so these specs can grind the gear in bgs.


I do remember some guilds bringing a balance druid of a shadow priest to raids even in MC. Sure they didnt bring a lot of them but most guilds arent racing to be server first. Also, changing the whole pvp system might be something blizzard might find too large to tackle, but I have no idea myself how they would or if they would consider it, and would change how vanilla was too.


Just let the devs decide on how they'll do it I guess, although I much prefer a more balanced, polished version of the game I will play wow classic regardless of whether they make these kinds of changes or not, since I'm not gonna play the hybrids but a healing priest, I just want to voice my opinion here on these forums.
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I do remember some guilds bringing a balance druid of a shadow priest to raids even in MC. Sure they didnt bring a lot of them but most guilds arent racing to be server first. Also, changing the whole pvp system might be something blizzard might find too large to tackle, but I have no idea myself how they would or if they would consider it, and would change how vanilla was too.


Just let the devs decide on how they'll do it I guess, although I much prefer a more balanced, polished version of the game I will play wow classic regardless of whether they make these kinds of changes or not, since I'm not gonna play the hybrids but a healing priest, I just want to voice my opinion here on these forums.


Im rolling a resto druid, im fine with it as is too. :P I just want to have some of the same experiences I had back in vanilla again.
11/26/2017 09:29 PMPosted by Jelyck
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Just let the devs decide on how they'll do it I guess, although I much prefer a more balanced, polished version of the game I will play wow classic regardless of whether they make these kinds of changes or not, since I'm not gonna play the hybrids but a healing priest, I just want to voice my opinion here on these forums.


Im rolling a resto druid, im fine with it as is too. :P I just want to have some of the same experiences I had back in vanilla again.


Have fun spamming rank 4 healing touch 24/7 :P, I heard that's about 95% of their raid.

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