NO to Class Balancing/Changes

Classic Discussion
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I want to roll a Paladin again. I will wield a 2-handed sword, and I want a dps raid spot. While dpsing, I will use my healing and utility spells to support the raid. If most raid groups would take me, then there's no need to balance the classes. However, if most raid groups will require me to spec into Holy and fill a healing spot, then the class needs some tuning so we can be a viable choice for a dps slot.
11/26/2017 09:24 PMPosted by Sfzrx
Just let the devs decide on how they'll do it I guess, although I much prefer a more balanced, polished version of the game I will play wow classic regardless of whether they make these kinds of changes or not, since I'm not gonna play the hybrids but a healing priest, I just want to voice my opinion here on these forums.


+1 and agreed.

It won't be a deal breaker to me if they don't work to fix the problems vanilla had, since I plan on playing on the Classic realms regardless.... That said, it will absolutely impact my decision whether to play an Enhance Shaman or whether or to play undead rogue #105980195801958... I have no intention of playing a dumpster tier spec that heavily handicaps my raids, especially with how important Gear (specifically raid gear) was to the vanilla WoW PvP system.
11/26/2017 09:38 PMPosted by Åpocalypse
11/26/2017 09:24 PMPosted by Sfzrx
Just let the devs decide on how they'll do it I guess, although I much prefer a more balanced, polished version of the game I will play wow classic regardless of whether they make these kinds of changes or not, since I'm not gonna play the hybrids but a healing priest, I just want to voice my opinion here on these forums.


+1 and agreed.

It won't be a deal breaker to me if they don't work to fix the problems vanilla had, since I plan on playing on the Classic realms regardless.... That said, it will absolutely impact my decision whether to play an Enhance Shaman or whether or to play undead rogue #105980195801958... I have no intention of playing a dumpster tier spec that heavily handicaps my raids, especially with how important Gear (specifically raid gear) was to the vanilla WoW PvP system.


i will also play classic either way but if they balance specs a bit I will play a shaman or warlock... if they don't balance them I guess I will just play a rogue/mage/warrior like everyone else..
11/26/2017 09:34 PMPosted by Vallidorn
I want to roll a Paladin again. I will wield a 2-handed sword, and I want a dps raid spot. While dpsing, I will use my healing and utility spells to support the raid. If most raid groups would take me, then there's no need to balance the classes. However, if most raid groups will require me to spec into Holy and fill a healing spot, then the class needs some tuning so we can be a viable choice for a dps slot.


Sorry but what you're looking for probably isn't WOW:Classic.

You might want to give Legion a try.
11/25/2017 04:43 PMPosted by Frostchi
Classes WERE balanced in vanilla.

They're just not balanced how (some) people want them to be.

There were no "Ret Paladins" or other Legion Specific "Class Fantasies". You were simply a Paladin that had points into the Retribution tree -- the majority of your spell toolkit remains unchanged no matter what spec you are.


I can tell you didn't play a Paladin in Classic for very long.

You are right about one thing though - you weren't a Ret Paladin. You weren't a Prot Paladin. You were a Holy Paladin... and even that's just because they needed to bring 1-2 of you for the buffs and healing is the only thing a paladin could do about half as well as another class.

WoW Classic will not be compromised if a raid leader is asked by a Paladin with 31 points in Ret: "Can I raid?" ... and that raid leader can say: "Why yes you can. Paladins with 31 points in Ret aren't completely useless at everything they do. Welcome to our Raid!"

Such a stupid thing to cling to. 99 things made WoW Classic great - class balance wasn't one of them.
11/25/2017 04:43 PMPosted by Frostchi
Classes WERE balanced in vanilla.


Except they weren't, there were entire patches dedicated to specific classes to fix their balancing issues.
11/26/2017 10:28 PMPosted by Barrison
11/25/2017 04:43 PMPosted by Frostchi
Classes WERE balanced in vanilla.

They're just not balanced how (some) people want them to be.

There were no "Ret Paladins" or other Legion Specific "Class Fantasies". You were simply a Paladin that had points into the Retribution tree -- the majority of your spell toolkit remains unchanged no matter what spec you are.


I can tell you didn't play a Paladin in Classic for very long.

You are right about one thing though - you weren't a Ret Paladin. You weren't a Prot Paladin. You were a Holy Paladin... and even that's just because they needed to bring 1-2 of you for the buffs and healing is the only thing a paladin could do about half as well as another class.

WoW Classic will not be compromised if a raid leader is asked by a Paladin with 31 points in Ret: "Can I raid?" ... and that raid leader can say: "Why yes you can. Paladins with 31 points in Ret aren't completely useless at everything they do. Welcome to our Raid!"

Such a stupid thing to cling to. 99 things made WoW Classic great - class balance wasn't one of them.


Except what you're proposing isn't vanilla, so it doesn't give us an "Authentic Vanilla" experience that Blizzard promised.

I will actually be playing a Paladin when classic hits, and I'm perfectly fine with the Hybrid Tax and being shunted towards Holy.

Luckily purists are the majority and it's likely Blizzard will do the right thing and stay true to their word that "Vanilla means Vanilla".
If there are any changes made I'd be fine with, at most, keeping Crusader Strike and going from 10ft to 30ft Judgements.

And for people who claim that Crusader Strike wasn't Vanilla, they removed it in Patch 1.1.0 and brought it back in 2.0.3.

Judgements going to 30ft won't affect much. That's literally the only changes that are necessary to be honest, IF changes to are be made. Paladins can use Judgements to pull as a less-effective taunt and Crusader Strike allows them to do something other than auto-attack with a Reckoning build for DPS if they want.

Now, personally, I don't give a damn whether changes are made. Those are just the only changes I'd accept to paladins in general.
Well, it is also a fact that mages were the best class in vanilla.

1. Free Food and Water.
2. Teleports.
3. One of the Top DPS classes in dungeons and raids.
4. One of the best CC available in game.
5. Best escape mechanics.
6. Best aoe farming abilities.
7. Class with most class quests. Some classes had just 2 or 3. Mages had 10...

And last but not the least -

8. First and only class to get glyphs - polymorph: pig(or turtle).
There is really no need to to balance classes. They were ally pretty balanced by later vanilla patches.
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I can tell you didn't play a Paladin in Classic for very long.

You are right about one thing though - you weren't a Ret Paladin. You weren't a Prot Paladin. You were a Holy Paladin... and even that's just because they needed to bring 1-2 of you for the buffs and healing is the only thing a paladin could do about half as well as another class.

WoW Classic will not be compromised if a raid leader is asked by a Paladin with 31 points in Ret: "Can I raid?" ... and that raid leader can say: "Why yes you can. Paladins with 31 points in Ret aren't completely useless at everything they do. Welcome to our Raid!"

Such a stupid thing to cling to. 99 things made WoW Classic great - class balance wasn't one of them.


Except what you're proposing isn't vanilla, so it doesn't give us an "Authentic Vanilla" experience that Blizzard promised.

I will actually be playing a Paladin when classic hits, and I'm perfectly fine with the Hybrid Tax and being shunted towards Holy.

Luckily purists are the majority and it's likely Blizzard will do the right thing and stay true to their word that "Vanilla means Vanilla".


Purists aren't the majority - they're just louder and more obnoxious and this is the part of the forum they live in.

And when Ion said "Vanilla means Vanilla", he was referencing community and lack of convenience primarily. As Class Balancing was done all throughout Vanilla, it's pretty stupid to say class balancing was never a part of the experience.

But w/e. I'm in the crowd of: "I'd prefer a more balanced experience... but I'll play regardless." If they launch a true "warts and all" class balance, I'll play one of the 4 good classes like everyone else. You can be the token buffbot healing half as well as the priest if that's what brings you those old 100% Pure Classic tears of joy.
11/26/2017 09:34 PMPosted by Vallidorn
I want to roll a Paladin again. I will wield a 2-handed sword, and I want a dps raid spot. While dpsing, I will use my healing and utility spells to support the raid. If most raid groups would take me, then there's no need to balance the classes. However, if most raid groups will require me to spec into Holy and fill a healing spot, then the class needs some tuning so we can be a viable choice for a dps slot.
No, it won't need balancing even in that circumstance. What needs balancing is peoples' mindset of an mmorpg, which has become completely warped. Instead of a fun rpg they see some battle simulator.

What is the result of endless balancing and equalizing and homogenization? Will players ever be content? After 13 years of such changes look at the forums. Look at any class forum. They're all complaining 24/7. 'My spec is useless, that spec is OP. Nerf them, buff me,' etc etc etc. You will never please these people. At least if they center the game around fun people who just want to play what they enjoy can do that.
11/25/2017 04:52 PMPosted by Frostchi
11/25/2017 04:49 PMPosted by Akaidian
Hiding behind "because that's how it was!" isn't a good enough reason


"VANILLA MEANS VANILLA" --Ion Hazzikostas


You only hear what you wanted to because Ion went on to say there is a lot of decisions that need to be made and they want the discussion to go on so they can hear from the community. I am sure they will deliver vanilla game play but I am sure they will add any capability that makes sense.

Stop twisting what Blizzard says to fit your view and just have the conversations.
If they ever do a balance patch for classic I hope that it remains in the spirit of the classic design, meaning that paladin and druids remain hybrids masters-of-none, mage, hunter, warlock and rogues are pure DPS and get to do more damage, and warrior and priests are primary tanks and healers respectively.

I could see a patch 1.13 that makes it so that fury warriors do not out-DPS pure damage dealers because that was probably not the intention, but not a patch that makes paladins viable main tanks because that was never the design philosophy of classic.
11/27/2017 09:45 AMPosted by Méo
If they ever do a balance patch for classic I hope that it remains in the spirit of the classic design, meaning that paladin and druids remain hybrids masters-of-none, mage, hunter, warlock and rogues are pure DPS and get to do more damage, and warrior and priests are primary tanks and healers respectively.

I could see a patch 1.13 that makes it so that fury warriors do not out-DPS pure damage dealers because that was probably not the intention, but not a patch that makes paladins viable main tanks because that was never the design philosophy of classic.


Exactly. Tweaking numbers a little bit around the original intent is fine. Changing from the original design to the retail model's "a dps is a dps is a dps" idiocy is absolutely a deal breaker for me.
Ahh, the "devs hate us" argument rears its ugly head.


Ahh, the "Oh this guy sounds like he's whining so Ill just make myself look like a E-hardguy and call him soft, even though I pointed to a well reputed video with logical arguments."

See? I can do it too. Let's play nice now.

No, the devs didn't "hate" paladins, druids, and shaman; they had a clear vision of what those classes were that didn't match what the average lolret baddie wanted the class to be.


And thank you for proving my point. I didn't play Vanilla or TBC, but in Wrath I did my best to not only DPS, but provide support and even offtanking for the raid when it was required.

It really doesn't help your argument when you pretty much show blatant disrespect for a playstyle. I give my best when it's time to shine, so please do us all a favor, and stop.

News flash: Warriors weren't intended to do top DPS when well geared. That was a result of a lack of foresight in the design of the rage mechanic. Rage generation from damage done was significantly decreased in 2.01; just in time to make levelling a warrior completely suck in BC unless you were decked out in Naxx level gear, in which case it only mostly sucked. They then proceeded to gradually scratch and claw their way up through the DPS pack again as they got geared until, lo and behold, the same thing happened in BT/Sunwell gear and they got gutted again for Wrath levelling. It wasn't until they changed rage generation to be primarily from using rage generating abilities and balanced the damage around that mechanic that warriors stopped scaling off the charts with top gear


That is indeed unfortunate. You know what else is unfortunate? Not being allowed in a raid at all.
11/27/2017 05:43 PMPosted by Rámzá
No, the devs didn't "hate" paladins, druids, and shaman; they had a clear vision of what those classes were that didn't match what the average lolret baddie wanted the class to be.


And thank you for proving my point. I didn't play Vanilla or TBC, but in Wrath I did my best to not only DPS, but provide support and even offtanking for the raid when it was required.

It really doesn't help your argument when you pretty much show blatant disrespect for a playstyle. I give my best when it's time to shine, so please do us all a favor, and stop.


I didn't show disrespect for a playstyle, I showed disrespect for a particular group of players who, IMO, deserve disrespect. A properly played ret paladin does the things you pointed out that you did. They also know which blessings and auras to use and when it's time to stop doing damage and use their abilities to help the raid. I have no disrespect at all for those players. They aren't the ones calling for buffs to ret damage so they can compete on the meters with rogues and warriors because they know that's not their job.

The group clamoring for rogue/warrior level damage is the one full of meter tunneling bads that don't understand the very real contribution a well-played paladin makes to the group even if their DPS number is down around the tanks on a particular fight. The ones that in dungeon groups would toss blessing of might on the healer, fire up ret aura for the extra deeps, consecrate the CCed mobs (again for the extra deeps) and other such stupidity. Lolret and retnoob became memes because of how laughably bad at their class many rets were, not because the spec put out lesser damage than other specs.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

And thank you for proving my point. I didn't play Vanilla or TBC, but in Wrath I did my best to not only DPS, but provide support and even offtanking for the raid when it was required.

It really doesn't help your argument when you pretty much show blatant disrespect for a playstyle. I give my best when it's time to shine, so please do us all a favor, and stop.


I didn't show disrespect for a playstyle, I showed disrespect for a particular group of players who, IMO, deserve disrespect. A properly played ret paladin does the things you pointed out that you did. They also know which blessings and auras to use and when it's time to stop doing damage and use their abilities to help the raid. I have no disrespect at all for those players. They aren't the ones calling for buffs to ret damage so they can compete on the meters with rogues and warriors because they know that's not their job.

The group clamoring for rogue/warrior level damage is the one full of meter tunneling bads that don't understand the very real contribution a well-played paladin makes to the group even if their DPS number is down around the tanks on a particular fight. The ones that in dungeon groups would toss blessing of might on the healer, fire up ret aura for the extra deeps, consecrate the CCed mobs (again for the extra deeps) and other such stupidity. Lolret and retnoob became memes because of how laughably bad at their class many rets were, not because the spec put out lesser damage than other specs.


Thank you for clarifying.

And I happen to agree. There's much more to raid success than meters, and it would be incredibly wrong to change Classic just to validate such a mindset. Paladins should not do damage like pures.

My only concern is that when it's time to raid, that I'll always be the one left behind.

I should also clarify that I played sometime during the end of BC, but also raided Vanilla content at level 60 (I still remember Paladin reagents, 5 min buffs, SotC, etc.)

And yeah, I did indeed get kicked from groups for being lolret.

So while not QUITE a Vanilla experience, it was fairly close. You can understand my kneejerk reaction, I hope
I just want to have access to all of the original content with the game being as easy as it is now, It was painful to keep dying to murlocs outside of Goldshire because I couldn't kill them fast enough and one runs off and comes back with two or three while I am still weakened being unable to heal
11/27/2017 06:11 PMPosted by Rámzá
Thank you for clarifying.

And I happen to agree. There's much more to raid success than meters, and it would be incredibly wrong to change Classic just to validate such a mindset. Paladins should not do damage like pures.

My only concern is that when it's time to raid, that I'll always be the one left behind.

I should also clarify that I played sometime during the end of BC, but also raided Vanilla content at level 60 (I still remember Paladin reagents, 5 min buffs, SotC, etc.)

And yeah, I did indeed get kicked from groups for being lolret.

So while not QUITE a Vanilla experience, it was fairly close. You can understand my kneejerk reaction, I hope


Certainly, and I have no problem with your response. It's hard to remember which threads I've posted which points in any more. :/ The joys of getting old I guess.

To absolutely clarify, I wouldn't have a problem if they choose to buff the "broken specs" a small degree if their output is deemed to be too low compared to what was intended. The problem for me would be seeing them given large buffs to bring them into the same sphere as the rogues and mages.

It is my firm opinion that moving towards "all specs should do similar damage / healing / tanking and be viable in all content" was the biggest mistake the devs ever made with the game. It completely gutted the RPG aspect of the game. The specific game additions that pushed them in that direction (arenas and reducing raid sizes) are 2 of the 4 actions I can clearly point to as having "destroyed WoW" for me (flying and LFD being the other two).

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