Only 4 Classes Viable?

Classic Discussion
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12/01/2017 03:37 PMPosted by Chunlí
It is thus my assertion, that the lack of good scaling for those classes, or mechanics that do not allow them to function in their primary role at all (e.g. no mana recovery mechanics for Oomkins/spell cost too high/whatever their problem really is*), will mean class selection will be unhealthily unbalanced, and the game will suffer because of it.

*I'm not actually sure what Boomkins real problem was, because I never specced Moonkin. I am going off of what I have heard here. If that is not true, insert anything that is true along the same lines to get to my point, which is about healthy class balance, and how to achieve it.


Why this constant moaning that moonkins had mana issues. They did in earlier patches. Later they were fine...
12/01/2017 03:27 PMPosted by Rongente


Umm? yes i said that the only hunter issue was not being able to attack with their pet. And you started first with personal attacks. soo... rhyme as much you want that doesnt make you right

Actually my statement was directed at the fact that by your response, you so completely missed the point of my post, I didn't know how else to respond. However, I should have said nothing at all, and I apologize.

As for your assertion, you did not COUNTER (and by that I mean, give arguments against, not just random statements) what I stated was their problems, you only gave a view of what YOU consider their problems to be. A view I agree with btw, I should add it in. However, you have given me no reason whatsoever to abandon the other statements I made as to their problems, because you did not in any way address them directly.
12/01/2017 03:44 PMPosted by Chunlí
As for your assertion, you did not COUNTER (and by that I mean, give arguments against, not just random statements) what I stated was their problems, you only gave a view of what YOU consider their problems to be. A view I agree with btw, I should add it in. However, you have given me no reason whatsoever to abandon the other statements I made as to their problems, because you did not in any way address them directly.


You think those might be the problem but they arent because fixing those would increase hunter dps, hunters can use their pets in pvp as opposed in pve, so increased hunter dps + usable pet in pvp = problem with pvp balance.
I dont need to write an essay, people should use their heads.
12/01/2017 03:27 PMPosted by Quicksilverz


Are you trying to argue that hybrids being on par with pures won't affect their raid spots?
That is not my point at all, but it is not a statement I necessarily disagree with.

We have, what; 8 years since they went away from the 'hybrid tax' idea to prove that. You are in a raid for your primary role, and whatever utility you bring in the form of CC, buffs, maybe cookies, etc. No one will ever select a feral over a rogue because they can heal, even if they do the same DPS, because while they are healing, they are not doing DPS, and that's what they are there for.

Even in Vanilla, priests were "the healers", yet all healers were just as good for certain things. They were pretty much equal, with some better at some things than others. Think "equal HPS", though that's not really a measure, or at least wasn't then. Yet all healers were welcome as healers for the raid. Priests were not kicked out because a druid could do as much healing AND go cat form and dps, or bear form and taunt and tank, because that was not why they were there.

Equal DPS between rogue and feral, just wouldn't make rogue undesirable. It never has since, it wouldn't then. There is just too much data to suggest otherwise.

Regardless, please don't think that is my point. That is so far removed from my point. I like the hybrid tax. It allows for a game design that gives people more flexible options in how they build their character. With the Vanilla system, you could create TRUE hybrids. It was awesome. I am arguing more for fixes to certain classes and/or specs so that they are VIABLE (nothing about equality of dps in that word), so that when someone goes to the character selection screen in Classic, they might actually choose them, because they might have hope that they won't suck, and that will create a better game for us all.
12/01/2017 04:00 PMPosted by Chunlí
I am arguing more for fixes to certain classes and/or specs so that they are VIABLE (nothing about equality of dps in that word), so that when someone goes to the character selection screen in Classic, they might actually choose them, because they might have hope that they won't suck, and that will create a better game for us all.


every spec was viable by later vanilla patches
12/01/2017 03:53 PMPosted by Rongente

You think those might be the problem but they arent because fixing those would increase hunter dps, hunters can use their pets in pvp as opposed in pve, so increased hunter dps + usable pet in pvp = problem with pvp balance.
I dont need to write an essay, people should use their heads.
Can you give arguments why an increase in hunter dps IF THEY GET GEAR THAT IS SUPPOSED TO INCREASE THEIR DPS would cause these huge problems in PvP? Its not like hunters were dominating PvP. They were good, because they had speed, control, and burst. You'll notice dps is not in there.
12/01/2017 04:00 PMPosted by Chunlí
That is not my point at all, but it is not a statement I necessarily disagree with.

We have, what; 8 years since they went away from the 'hybrid tax' idea to prove that. You are in a raid for your primary role, and whatever utility you bring in the form of CC, buffs, maybe cookies, etc. No one will ever select a feral over a rogue because they can heal, even if they do the same DPS, because while they are healing, they are not doing DPS, and that's what they are there for.


Nobody brings a feral to heal, they bring it for its incredibly powerful cooldowns. You can shift out to battle rez or innervate(eventually, depending on what patch blizzard rolls with), etc. Every hybrid has a very powerful ability, some have even more. A rogue brings absolutely nothing but its dps, which even then, is limited in many cases for fights being unfavorable to melee. Evidence of this can be seen throughout expansions, one of the most obvious was the world firsts with raids consisting almost entirely of druids, because they were performing on par with purists in their respective roles, while simultaneously having powerful abilities that could be used quickly and then return to their respective roles.

12/01/2017 04:00 PMPosted by Chunlí
Equal DPS between rogue and feral, just wouldn't make rogue undesirable. It never has since, it wouldn't then. There is just too much data to suggest otherwise.


As I just mentioned, there are numerous cases proving this is 100% false.

12/01/2017 04:00 PMPosted by Chunlí
12/01/2017 03:27 PMPosted by Quicksilverz


Are you trying to argue that hybrids being on par with pures won't affect their raid spots?
That is not my point at all, but it is not a statement I necessarily disagree with.

We have, what; 8 years since they went away from the 'hybrid tax' idea to prove that. You are in a raid for your primary role, and whatever utility you bring in the form of CC, buffs, maybe cookies, etc. No one will ever select a feral over a rogue because they can heal, even if they do the same DPS, because while they are healing, they are not doing DPS, and that's what they are there for.

Even in Vanilla, priests were "the healers", yet all healers were just as good for certain things. They were pretty much equal, with some better at some things than others. Think "equal HPS", though that's not really a measure, or at least wasn't then. Yet all healers were welcome as healers for the raid. Priests were not kicked out because a druid could do as much healing AND go cat form and dps, or bear form and taunt and tank, because that was not why they were there.

Equal DPS between rogue and feral, just wouldn't make rogue undesirable. It never has since, it wouldn't then. There is just too much data to suggest otherwise.

Regardless, please don't think that is my point. That is so far removed from my point. I like the hybrid tax. It allows for a game design that gives people more flexible options in how they build their character. With the Vanilla system, you could create TRUE hybrids. It was awesome. I am arguing more for fixes to certain classes and/or specs so that they are VIABLE (nothing about equality of dps in that word), so that when someone goes to the character selection screen in Classic, they might actually choose them, because they might have hope that they won't suck, and that will create a better game for us all.


I think you're selling hybrids short, the only thing I would agree with where hybrids are so inferior that they are not viable is raid tanking.
12/01/2017 03:25 PMPosted by Rongente
Damage in Vanilla is not designed around patchwork style fights


but even if they were - patchwerk required a whooping average 475dps if you had only 20 dders in your raid. Oh no! how on earth would a raid get those figures :D


The thing is, dps in real classic is a bit different than Pservers. Looking at Pserver numbers, I am certain the unkillable Cthun 1.0 would go down in record time on a Pserver. :)
12/01/2017 04:07 PMPosted by Chunlí
12/01/2017 03:53 PMPosted by Rongente

You think those might
Can you give arguments why an increase in hunter dps IF THEY GET GEAR THAT IS SUPPOSED TO INCREASE THEIR DPS would cause these huge problems in PvP? Its not like hunters were dominating PvP. They were good, because they had speed, control, and burst. You'll notice dps is not in there.


hunters were boss in pvp.... good hunters were like rambo on the battlefields.
You buff they damage and they will be gods in the reboot.
Paladin buffs? Druid innervates, battle rez? Mark of the Wild? Totems? Tranq shot? Longest ranged attacks in the game, ideal for tricky pulls? Curses? Warlocks did comparable damage to Mages and never went OOM, as well.

And there you go. Every class raids.

Nobody brings a feral to heal, they bring it for its incredibly powerful cooldowns. You can shift out to battle rez or innervate(eventually, depending on what patch blizzard rolls with), etc. Every hybrid has a very powerful ability, some have even more. A rogue brings absolutely nothing but its dps, which even then, is limited in many cases for fights being unfavorable to melee. Evidence of this can be seen throughout expansions, one of the most obvious was the world firsts with raids consisting almost entirely of druids, because they were performing on par with purists in their respective roles, while simultaneously having powerful abilities that could be used quickly and then return to their respective roles.

I could not find evidence to support the 'world firsts' claim, though that does not make it untrue at all. I do however agree that battle rez and innervate are very powerful, and THOSE might put them over rogues if they did the same damage. Those have nothing to do with their "hybrid" status however, i.e. my claim is; the fact that a feral can tank, throw a nuke, or heal will NOT increase their status over a rogue.

Regardless, your point is taken. Things OTHER than their hybrid status, that were given to them to make them valuable, actually did make them valuable. I will drop this particular argument because a) you have given me good arguments to do so, and b) it really is neither my point, nor what I want for the game.

I think you're selling hybrids short, the only thing I would agree with where hybrids are so inferior that they are not viable is raid tanking.

I'm really not. That wasn't what I was trying to say. What I was trying to say got lost in a tangent. I will not follow that line anymore. It is in some ways the opposite of my point.

I do NOT want 'equality' of dps. I want sufficient changes that the perception is that these specs will be viable and will scale appropriately during the end game raiding process. I think this is necessary for game health, simply because when we get to the character selection screen in Classic WoW, perception of future power is more important than class fantasy for the majority of people. Polls STRONGLY support this assertion.

My argument is that most, and perhaps even ALL of the required changes are basic mechanical issues or gear oversights, that were ALL fixed in later versions of the game, most in 2.0. I lastly assert that a lack of these changes (or changes to be hashed out) prevent certain classes and/or specs from meeting the stated criteria, and is ultimately unhealthy for the game. I used hunters specifically because they are NOT hybrids, by any stretch of the imagination, and because I know so very well how their mechanics work.
12/01/2017 04:39 PMPosted by Below


hunters were boss in pvp.... good hunters were like rambo on the battlefields.
You buff they damage and they will be gods in the reboot.

Again, damage has two main components. Hunters on the damage front were good in PvP because of their burst. Increasing long fight dps WHEN THEIR GEAR IS UPGRADED does not directly increase burst, in fact, not one of my proposed fixes to their scaling problems IN ANY WAY increases their burst, rather, it unfortunately decreases it.
12/01/2017 04:44 PMPosted by Chunlí

Nobody brings a feral to heal, they bring it for its incredibly powerful cooldowns. You can shift out to battle rez or innervate(eventually, depending on what patch blizzard rolls with), etc. Every hybrid has a very powerful ability, some have even more. A rogue brings absolutely nothing but its dps, which even then, is limited in many cases for fights being unfavorable to melee. Evidence of this can be seen throughout expansions, one of the most obvious was the world firsts with raids consisting almost entirely of druids, because they were performing on par with purists in their respective roles, while simultaneously having powerful abilities that could be used quickly and then return to their respective roles.

I could not find evidence to support the 'world firsts' claim, though that does not make it untrue at all. I do however agree that battle rez and innervate are very powerful, and THOSE might put them over rogues if they did the same damage. Those have nothing to do with their "hybrid" status however, i.e. my claim is; the fact that a feral can tank, throw a nuke, or heal will NOT increase their status over a rogue.

Regardless, your point is taken. Things OTHER than their hybrid status, that were given to them to make them valuable, actually did make them valuable. I will drop this particular argument because a) you have given me good arguments to do so, and b) it really is neither my point, nor what I want for the game.

I think you're selling hybrids short, the only thing I would agree with where hybrids are so inferior that they are not viable is raid tanking.

I'm really not. That wasn't what I was trying to say. What I was trying to say got lost in a tangent. I will not follow that line anymore. It is in some ways the opposite of my point.

I do NOT want 'equality' of dps. I want sufficient changes that the perception is that these specs will be viable and will scale appropriately during the end game raiding process. I think this is necessary for game health, simply because when we get to the character selection screen in Classic WoW, perception of future power is more important than class fantasy for the majority of people. Polls STRONGLY support this assertion.

My argument is that most, and perhaps even ALL of the required changes are basic mechanical issues or gear oversights, that were ALL fixed in later versions of the game, most in 2.0. I lastly assert that a lack of these changes (or changes to be hashed out) prevent certain classes and/or specs from meeting the stated criteria, and is ultimately unhealthy for the game. I used hunters specifically because they are NOT hybrids, by any stretch of the imagination, and because I know so very well how their mechanics work.


Aside from hunters, which hybrids are well known for poor scaling?
12/01/2017 04:53 PMPosted by Chunlí
12/01/2017 04:39 PMPosted by Below


hunters were boss in pvp.... good hunters were like rambo on the battlefields.
You buff they damage and they will be gods in the reboot.

Again, damage has two main components. Hunters on the damage front were good in PvP because of their burst. Increasing long fight dps WHEN THEIR GEAR IS UPGRADED does not directly increase burst, in fact, not one of my proposed fixes to their scaling problems IN ANY WAY increases their burst, rather, it unfortunately decreases it.


So you want to nerf hunters in PvP?....
12/01/2017 04:56 PMPosted by Below

So you want to nerf hunters in PvP?....
I really don't. I want them to scale appropriately. It's a sight nerf, where by an autoshot will not go immediately after an aimed shot if they remove clipping. But its necessary for them to scale properly with weapons. It is what it is. I think it would be healthy for the game. At least that is my assertion.
12/01/2017 11:36 AMPosted by Scribbly
12/01/2017 11:24 AMPosted by Arkiz

Warlocks - warlocks are straight up DPS. Sure they can summon players and have cookies but they would be passed up for a Mage due to the CC offered by a mage.


You realize warlocks have Seduce, Banish, CoR Fear, and Enslave Demon? I imagine you've grouped with really horrible warlocks who don't know how to CC.
I think the point is now most encounters are just DPS fest now that bosses have millions of HP
12/01/2017 04:56 PMPosted by Below

So you want to nerf hunters in PvP?....


Sounded like more of a sidegrade from how I read it. It also seems like something that was more of a bug rather than intentional design. I doubt Blizzard planned to have better weapons be worse due to how autoshot worked with rotations.
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Protection warrior - Supreme tanks.

Holy Priests - supreme healers.

Frost Mages - Supreme ranged DPS. Frost is needed for MC, CC, and certain bosses.

Combat / Assassination Rogues - supreme Melee DPS. CC.

All other classes will be considered sub par for a number of reasons.

Warriors, Priests, Mages, (in a spec other than indicated above) and possibly a subtly rogue will discarded as sub-par, a waste of a toon, and cast asside.


fury war is the best dps for a long time but acording to you its a waste of a toon? good joke
12/01/2017 05:06 PMPosted by Hruufalen
12/01/2017 04:56 PMPosted by Below

So you want to nerf hunters in PvP?....


Sounded like more of a sidegrade from how I read it. It also seems like something that was more of a bug rather than intentional design. I doubt Blizzard planned to have better weapons be worse due to how autoshot worked with rotations.


Better gear being worse was pretty normal in classic. It's hard to say.
Thats funny, you think people will be taking rogues over fury warriors. oh you poor thing.

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