No to Rebalancing? - You didn't play paladin

Classic Discussion
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Gee Op... Thats quite the statement to make! can you explain this a bit more?

Paladins in classic were under tremendous scrutiny in the age of classic or "vanilla". I am here today to discuss virtually every single thing on paladins, a concensus if you will. This will be a very large opening post, and be prepared for alot of reading. you have been warned.

A List of a Paladin's strengths
1. Competative and efficient Single target quick heals
2. best range of buffs, stretching from threat reduction, mana regen, and various stat boosts
3. Plate armor class proficiency
4. 5 man dungeon Aoe Tanking trash mobs
5. Powerful Undead Combat abilities (Exorcism, turn undead, holy wrath)
6. Free level 40 Mount, and unique epic mount Quest.
7. Cleanse botting
8. hammer of justice Stun
9. Blessing of freedom, divine shield/BoP are fantastic support features in an emergency.

As we can see, Classic Paladins' strengths are mostly limited to healing and support. a very strange situation considering the class primarily wields melee 2h weapons and plate armor. which we will discuss alot further in the next bullet point.

A list of Paladin's Shortcomings
1. Lack of Dps capabilities and skills, no sustainable dps capabilities
2. Seal of command being primary dps ability, is based off pure luck.
3. Paladins rely mostly on buffs, which usually get spam dispelled in pvp.
4.Consecration, while a great aoe tanking skill, costs far too much mana.
5. Overall completely reliant on Mana, which is a severe issue for dps and tanking in long term battles and situations
6.Only contains single target healing, a instant heal "holy shock" is avalible 31 pts in holy tree, but is virtually worthless, heal wise, mana wise, and damage wise. It's also affected by GCD, giving it no real use in any group/raid scene.
7.Heavily dependant on gear, even more so then warriors.
8. while also being dependant on gear, many stats are required. Spell damage, Strength, agility, stam, spell crit, melee crit... pretty much every stat except Spirit is needed for paladins.
9.While being a viable healer in pve or pvp, they still fall short in most situations when compared to other healers. (priest/druid/shaman)
10. Vengeance, a crucial talent to Retribution dps, is also luck based, off crit in order for it to be active, for a mere 7 seconds. (important for next point)
11. since paladins have no snare, making it very difficulty in pvp to even target other classes, since every other class has a way of kiting paladins. keeping up vengeance is a very difficult ordeal in pvp, Hammer of justice is the only way for paladins to stop a target in it's tracks.
12. while BoP and BoF are fantastic support skills, they can be easily overlooked by a simple purge or dispel.
13.Tanking as a Paladin is simply flat out non-viable for raids. Aside from Deathbone set, there are no raid level armor sets that provide all the needed stats a paladin would need in their hopes to survive crushing blows in a raid boss. Paladins dont get a rage bar, they will oom very fast in a boss battle spamming consecration, and holy shield.
14. no spell cancels or interrupts (ex: Kick,Shield slam,Counterspell)
15. Paladins only get one school of spells (holy) which means if they get counterspelled... they are locked out of doing EVERYTHING. that includes reapplying seals, buffs, healing... since all their spells and skills are of the holy school.
16.no emergency CD that helps mana replenishment
17.Paladins that actually want to get endgame DPS gear are forced to be last in line for other primary dps classes
18. While paladins need Spell damage if they want to be a shockadin, melee spell damage weapons (Ex: azuresong mageblade, bloodcaller,Romthalis)go to casters first, even though they get staffs.
19.If paladins want to stack Agi and Crit, those gear drops mostly go to all other primary dpsing classes before paladins aswell. in some cases, even 2h swords and axes go to hunters over paladins.
20.Paladin Gear issues extend even into healing drops. They must battle loot tables with both druids and priests when it comes to
21. seal/judgement of wisdom/light/justice are all pretty much worthless. Unless your guild allows you to do wisdom on Slime boss in aq40, thats about the only good use i can think of for that one at least. Otherwise those debuff slots are far better optimized for more damaging debuffs like Ignite.

With all this being said, paladins only get the option to heal in pretty much any party/raid oriented scene. DPS or tanking is simply not viable in the cases where they should be. if there are more examples of paladins strengths and weaknesses, please inform me if i left any out!

Very nice lists, Op... but can you please get to the point?

Look, I get it, every class has it's strengths and weaknesses. fixing alot of these weaknesses would most likely result in paladins being very over powered even.
But asking for these to be fixed, or let alone most or all of them, isnt really what non-purists are asking for. What the majority seems to be asking for is to at least make Paladins Viable in DPS and Tanking. (they dont have to be top tier in either of the 2 roles, viable doesnt ask for that.)

Now its not my job to necessarily figure out how thats done, that would be the game developer's job. But it is our job, as people who play the game to mention imbalances when we see them, aswell as discuss them.

What are you even talking about OP? No one can tell me how to play!

Well sorry Jimmy, im afraid that's simply not true in vanilla. If you are a paladin, chances are you are going to have to farm cloth with healing+ if you plan on Doing any raiding. If you are lucky, some guilds might allow a ret paladin here or there in their raid slots, but pretty much any other DPS option is superior, and im not just talking damage, im also refering to utility too. Paladins dont bring any real utility to the raid as ret paladins. Sanctity aura is silly, it does nothing for other classes, heck even boomkins bring 3% spell crit to groups... Ret paladins dont provide any beneficial utility. The only possible way they can do that is if they own a Nightfall, but even then, an arms warrior is far superior keeping the debuff on thanks to spamming hamstring. Prot Tank Paladins have absolutely no place in raiding in any way shape or form. (speccing into Prot just for Blessing of kings doesnt count as being a prot tank)

I Refuse to Spec Holy. Healing is not what i signed up for. I want to swing a 2h Hammer!

Then prepare for players of all kind that are familiar with endgame content to ridicule you, ignore you, laugh at you, and never invite you to their content groups. Oh and guess what? this doesn't only apply to Raiding, but it extends to PVP aswell. if you are in WSG, and seen with a 2h weapon, people will get annoyed and ask you to switch to healing, and keep Blessing of freedom and heals on the flag carrier, and only do that. Even if you know you can provide alot more then that, players will still stool you to do that.

Wow... Endgame for paladin sounds pretty rough on unexpected paladins.
Yep, it sure was. And knowing that its going to be relived to many unexpected players that didn't experience it the first time will certainly cause the same outrage. Purists will insist that only purists will make it to the endgame, but if the server only exists because of a loud but small crowd, the server wouldn't of been announced in the first place. But since Classic is going to happen, and Blizzard is helming the project, we can only ask that paladins get some form of change. The blizzard monitored survey resulted in favor of changes/re-balancing to me made, so the majority has spoken and has been confirmed. view the results here:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSc64CYad2GpAVvH6yEl-mLd2NBlCnKeIASA8mTrRwjJQ5usDw/closedform

at the very least, make tanks and Retribution somewhat raid viable.

"Hey wait a second... I DID PLAY PALADIN in classic and i don't want any changes made!"

Liar. And even if you werent lying about this statement, then i bet with all my might that you won't be rolling one with time around. especially after i just reminded you about their horrible and sad existence in Classic/vanilla.
and if you are still going to roll one after all this has been said then i commend you, or you are just going to roll one purely out of spite lol

I am aware that this thread is going to step on alot of toes (especially purists because they get triggered as long as the topic is about changes) but i apologize in advance if i upset you in some way shape or form.
I somewhat like the idea(s) of rebalancing, but they're also very scary. The balance is so subtle, and the changes would cause other changes, and finally the balance may change so much so it doesn't look like Vanilla anymore.

Paladin tanks, how to make them viable? They don't even have appropriate gear.

If guilds can bring a lot of pala DPSers, how to address the huge amount of cleansings now available? Also, each raid has all the blessings...

Druids are even more complicated. Allow guilds to have 15 viable druids in a raid, and you have 15 battleresses.

So it seems that every buff to an "offspec" makes raids easier (which I doubt anyone here would like to happen).

Even while I agree that a pala is a Champion of Light, Protecting His Allies and Vanquishing the Evil... I'm just not sure if it's possible to implement without "breaking the game".
people are just going to have to come to terms with it being a support class.
i will be playing ret paladin myself as my main
I hate the way hunters are designed to play in current WoW. Hate it. That's why I'm not playing a hunter in current WoW.

No one has to play a paladin. No one has to play Classic. That's the way it works.
12/08/2017 12:31 PMPosted by Blázè
The blizzard monitored survey


hahaha
They were not MT raid viable...but holy hell...they could tank anything else JUST fine. Hell...I would love to have my warrior able to heal others (without bandage skill)...bubble...lay on hands....I mean DAYUM...how much utility do you friggin need?

Want to be a MT raid? Roll a warrior...want to pewpew...roll a mage...want to sneaky sneak...roll a rogue....want to have your cake and eat it too? Roll a paly and run to the forums.
It's true. I didn't play Paladin in Vanilla. In fact, I've never played Paladin. I probably never will.

No to rebalancing.
No, you never played Vanilla or you've forgotten what it was about: a true rpg at its core. That means classes have niches. Niches requires strengths and weaknesses. This is the fundamental principle of Vanilla class 'balancing' (I prefer to say identity or fantasy). People advocating for these changes are going against the very nature of Vanilla.
Aint nobody else gonna bubble heart, though.
12/08/2017 12:31 PMPosted by Blázè
Gee Op... Thats quite the statement to make! can you explain this a bit more?

Paladins in classic were under tremendous scrutiny in the age of classic or "vanilla". I am here today to discuss virtually every single thing on paladins, a concensus if you will. This will be a very large opening post, and be prepared for alot of reading. you have been warned.

A List of a Paladin's strengths
1. Competative and efficient Single target quick heals
2. best range of buffs, stretching from threat reduction, mana regen, and various stat boosts
3. Plate armor class proficiency
4. 5 man dungeon Aoe Tanking trash mobs
5. Powerful Undead Combat abilities (Exorcism, turn undead, holy wrath)
6. Free level 40 Mount, and unique epic mount Quest.
7. Cleanse botting
8. hammer of justice Stun
9. Blessing of freedom, divine shield/BoP are fantastic support features in an emergency.

As we can see, Classic Paladins' strengths are mostly limited to healing and support. a very strange situation considering the class primarily wields melee 2h weapons and plate armor. which we will discuss alot further in the next bullet point.

A list of Paladin's Shortcomings
1. Lack of Dps capabilities and skills, no sustainable dps capabilities
2. Seal of command being primary dps ability, is based off pure luck.
3. Paladins rely mostly on buffs, which usually get spam dispelled in pvp.
4.Consecration, while a great aoe tanking skill, costs far too much mana.
5. Overall completely reliant on Mana, which is a severe issue for dps and tanking in long term battles and situations
6.Only contains single target healing, a instant heal "holy shock" is avalible 31 pts in holy tree, but is virtually worthless, heal wise, mana wise, and damage wise. It's also affected by GCD, giving it no real use in any group/raid scene.
7.Heavily dependant on gear, even more so then warriors.
8. while also being dependant on gear, many stats are required. Spell damage, Strength, agility, stam, spell crit, melee crit... pretty much every stat except Spirit is needed for paladins.
9.While being a viable healer in pve or pvp, they still fall short in most situations when compared to other healers. (priest/druid/shaman)
10. Vengeance, a crucial talent to Retribution dps, is also luck based, off crit in order for it to be active, for a mere 7 seconds. (important for next point)
11. since paladins have no snare, making it very difficulty in pvp to even target other classes, since every other class has a way of kiting paladins. keeping up vengeance is a very difficult ordeal in pvp, Hammer of justice is the only way for paladins to stop a target in it's tracks.
12. while BoP and BoF are fantastic support skills, they can be easily overlooked by a simple purge or dispel.
13.Tanking as a Paladin is simply flat out non-viable for raids. Aside from Deathbone set, there are no raid level armor sets that provide all the needed stats a paladin would need in their hopes to survive crushing blows in a raid boss. Paladins dont get a rage bar, they will oom very fast in a boss battle spamming consecration, and holy shield.
14. no spell cancels or interrupts (ex: Kick,Shield slam,Counterspell)
15. Paladins only get one school of spells (holy) which means if they get counterspelled... they are locked out of doing EVERYTHING. that includes reapplying seals, buffs, healing... since all their spells and skills are of the holy school.
16.no emergency CD that helps mana replenishment
17.Paladins that actually want to get endgame DPS gear are forced to be last in line for other primary dps classes
18. While paladins need Spell damage if they want to be a shockadin, melee spell damage weapons (Ex: azuresong mageblade, bloodcaller,Romthalis)go to casters first, even though they get staffs.
19.If paladins want to stack Agi and Crit, those gear drops mostly go to all other primary dpsing classes before paladins aswell. in some cases, even 2h swords and axes go to hunters over paladins.
20.Paladin Gear issues extend even into healing drops. They must battle loot tables with both druids and priests when it comes to
21. seal/judgement of wisdom/light/justice are all pretty much worthless. Unless your guild allows you to do wisdom on Slime boss in aq40, thats about the only good use i can think of for that one at least. Otherwise those debuff slots are far better optimized for more damaging debuffs like Ignite.

With all this being said, paladins only get the option to heal in pretty much any party/raid oriented scene. DPS or tanking is simply not viable in the cases where they should be. if there are more examples of paladins strengths and weaknesses, please inform me if i left any out!

Very nice lists, Op... but can you please get to the point?

Look, I get it, every class has it's strengths and weaknesses. fixing alot of these weaknesses would most likely result in paladins being very over powered even.
But asking for these to be fixed, or let alone most or all of them, isnt really what non-purists are asking for. What the majority seems to be asking for is to at least make Paladins Viable in DPS and Tanking. (they dont have to be top tier in either of the 2 roles, viable doesnt ask for that.)

Now its not my job to necessarily figure out how thats done, that would be the game developer's job. But it is our job, as people who play the game to mention imbalances when we see them, aswell as discuss them.

What are you even talking about OP? No one can tell me how to play!

Well sorry Jimmy, im afraid that's simply not true in vanilla. If you are a paladin, chances are you are going to have to farm cloth with healing+ if you plan on Doing any raiding. If you are lucky, some guilds might allow a ret paladin here or there in their raid slots, but pretty much any other DPS option is superior, and im not just talking damage, im also refering to utility too. Paladins dont bring any real utility to the raid as ret paladins. Sanctity aura is silly, it does nothing for other classes, heck even boomkins bring 3% spell crit to groups... Ret paladins dont provide any beneficial utility. The only possible way they can do that is if they own a Nightfall, but even then, an arms warrior is far superior keeping the debuff on thanks to spamming hamstring. Prot Tank Paladins have absolutely no place in raiding in any way shape or form. (speccing into Prot just for Blessing of kings doesnt count as being a prot tank)

I Refuse to Spec Holy. Healing is not what i signed up for. I want to swing a 2h Hammer!

Then prepare for players of all kind that are familiar with endgame content to ridicule you, ignore you, laugh at you, and never invite you to their content groups. Oh and guess what? this doesn't only apply to Raiding, but it extends to PVP aswell. if you are in WSG, and seen with a 2h weapon, people will get annoyed and ask you to switch to healing, and keep Blessing of freedom and heals on the flag carrier, and only do that. Even if you know you can provide alot more then that, players will still stool you to do that.

Wow... Endgame for paladin sounds pretty rough on unexpected paladins.
Yep, it sure was. And knowing that its going to be relived to many unexpected players that didn't experience it the first time will certainly cause the same outrage. Purists will insist that only purists will make it to the endgame, but if the server only exists because of a loud but small crowd, the server wouldn't of been announced in the first place. But since Classic is going to happen, and Blizzard is helming the project, we can only ask that paladins get some form of change. The blizzard monitored survey resulted in favor of changes/re-balancing to me made, so the majority has spoken and has been confirmed. view the results here:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSc64CYad2GpAVvH6yEl-mLd2NBlCnKeIASA8mTrRwjJQ5usDw/closedform

at the very least, make tanks and Retribution somewhat raid viable.

"Hey wait a second... I DID PLAY PALADIN in classic and i don't want any changes made!"

Liar. And even if you werent lying about this statement, then i bet with all my might that you won't be rolling one with time around. especially after i just reminded you about their horrible and sad existence in Classic/vanilla.
and if you are still going to roll one after all this has been said then i commend you, or you are just going to roll one purely out of spite lol

I am aware that this thread is going to step on alot of toes (especially purists because they get triggered as long as the topic is about changes) but i apologize in advance if i upset you in some way shape or form.

how did you make such a long post without a single mention of the talents, reckoning or illumination?
you didn't even mention the 11/26/14 paladin spec at all, which is really, REALLY, REALLY overpowered in PvP
do you know how many stacks reckoning could get AFTER the kazzak incident and the associated nerf?

if you're a troll, then I'll rate you 8/10, cause I've got a big cheesy hook in my stomach right now, although i didn't bother to read the entire post, but I did ctrl+f

also i will say that ret paladins are not desirable in raids, though most of their PvE buffs shouldn't come in the form of personal dps; just a buff to vindication is all thats necessary to make them good enough to bring to raids, but then a prot paladin could bring that too since its so low in the ret tree, so you'd wanna stick it lower into the ret tree too
12/08/2017 01:00 PMPosted by Mogar
No, you never played Vanilla or you've forgotten what it was about: a true rpg at its core. That means classes have niches. Niches requires strengths and weaknesses. This is the fundamental principle of Vanilla class 'balancing' (I prefer to say identity or fantasy). People advocating for these changes are going against the very nature of Vanilla.


Lol ok buddy.
how did you make such a long post without a single mention of the talent, reckoning?


i can certainly add it to the list, but reckoning virtually worthless in Pve especially after they nerfed it to where it only stacks a limited amount of times. it has its fun gimmicky use in pvp, but it isnt even in the right tree.

also the 11/26/14 spec isnt overpowered, unless you are fighting a rogue or warrior that doesnt know his class, any warlock, shaman or otherwise caster will still kite you and kill you before you can provide the reck charges.
These threads never stop...its like a child begging their mother for a new toy, the more they complain and bug them the more likely Mom will give in...

Well kids, Momma is gone!

Daddy is home!!! =) No class changes, deal with it or pick another class or play another game.

Good day!
12/08/2017 12:54 PMPosted by Aevelamue
people are just going to have to come to terms with it being a support class.
i will be playing ret paladin myself as my main

IMO ret palas don't really support the raid (once Kings are in prot tree at least). Blessings, cleansings and judgements? A healer pala would do them better. Nightfall? A warrior would do it better.

You just want to be carried (or you're ready to carry awful rogues). But it's fine, as long as everyone is having fun :)
People who want changes to paladin never played Warcraft 2 or 3.

Warcraft paladins simply are not the same as D&D paladins, and you should be basing your class fantasy off a Warcraft paladin, not a paladin from any other source of media.

Warcraft paladins are primarily a support/tank unit that outlasts enemies while dealing autoattack damage (heavy for an autoattack, but with limited to no offensive skills). Sound familiar?
All of this would make sense.... if anyone was being forced to play a paladin or, for that matter, Classic.
12/08/2017 01:11 PMPosted by Nimeralion
12/08/2017 12:54 PMPosted by Aevelamue
people are just going to have to come to terms with it being a support class.
i will be playing ret paladin myself as my main

IMO ret palas don't really support the raid (once Kings are in prot tree at least). Blessings, cleansings and judgements? A healer pala would do them better. Nightfall? A warrior would do it better.

You just want to be carried (or you're ready to carry awful rogues). But it's fine, as long as everyone is having fun :)


Thank you for pointing that out.

Like i mentioned in my opening thesis, Even though purists will call Paladins "support only", paladins fail to even provide that while being ret, since utility is basically absent, or limited to other paladins providing dps (judgement of crusader and Sanctity aura)
That list looks like it was written by somebody who really wanted to make Paladins look worse than they were.

but I guess I'm just a lying liar who doesn't plan on playing Paladins based on the super solid evidence that I disagree with the OP.
12/08/2017 01:15 PMPosted by Cyonan
That list looks like it was written by somebody who really wanted to make Paladins look worse than they were.

but I guess I'm just a lying liar who doesn't plan on playing Paladins based on the super solid evidence that I disagree with the OP.


hey buddy these are just the facts. But saddly, facts make classic/vanilla paladins look bad. dont be upset at me because i destroyed your rhetoric on being a purist. be upset at the truth, or rather the well-documented past.

being a fully decked out paladin that made it all the way to the end of nax, it brings me no pleasure in having to display the facts in which suggest that they are bad, i just want people to be aware, so that this way when changes do happen, it will happen for the betterment of the class.

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