No to Rebalancing? - You didn't play paladin

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People forget that Paladin blessings are the best buffs in the game too, so even if at release its rogue/hunter/warrior heavy, it will balance itself out because Paladins will be in demand. Same with Shamans and their totems on the horde, in vanilla the buffs were POWERFUL and were needed. No raid is going to take 20 rogues, so there will be rerolls happening over time to needed classes.
12/08/2017 04:42 PMPosted by Kinetics
People forget that Paladin blessings are the best buffs in the game too, so even if at release its rogue/hunter/warrior heavy, it will balance itself out because Paladins will be in demand. Same with Shamans and their totems on the horde, in vanilla the buffs were POWERFUL and were needed. No raid is going to take 20 rogues, so there will be rerolls happening over time to needed classes.

Paladins may be in demand, but they won't all be able to be taken as Ret like they all seem to want or even as a tank. They simply can't tank raids by design, but they can DPS... just not as well as they seem to believe they should.

Blessings are incredibly powerful indeed.
OP L2P pala was great.
12/08/2017 12:31 PMPosted by Blázè
1. Lack of Dps capabilities and skills, no sustainable dps capabilities
2. Seal of command being primary dps ability, is based off pure luck.
3. Paladins rely mostly on buffs, which usually get spam dispelled in pvp.
4.Consecration, while a great aoe tanking skill, costs far too much mana.
5. Overall completely reliant on Mana, which is a severe issue for dps and tanking in long term battles and situations
6.Only contains single target healing, a instant heal "holy shock" is avalible 31 pts in holy tree, but is virtually worthless, heal wise, mana wise, and damage wise. It's also affected by GCD, giving it no real use in any group/raid scene.
7.Heavily dependant on gear, even more so then warriors.
8. while also being dependant on gear, many stats are required. Spell damage, Strength, agility, stam, spell crit, melee crit... pretty much every stat except Spirit is needed for paladins.
9.While being a viable healer in pve or pvp, they still fall short in most situations when compared to other healers. (priest/druid/shaman)
10. Vengeance, a crucial talent to Retribution dps, is also luck based, off crit in order for it to be active, for a mere 7 seconds. (important for next point)
11. since paladins have no snare, making it very difficulty in pvp to even target other classes, since every other class has a way of kiting paladins. keeping up vengeance is a very difficult ordeal in pvp, Hammer of justice is the only way for paladins to stop a target in it's tracks.
12. while BoP and BoF are fantastic support skills, they can be easily overlooked by a simple purge or dispel.
13.Tanking as a Paladin is simply flat out non-viable for raids. Aside from Deathbone set, there are no raid level armor sets that provide all the needed stats a paladin would need in their hopes to survive crushing blows in a raid boss. Paladins dont get a rage bar, they will oom very fast in a boss battle spamming consecration, and holy shield.
14. no spell cancels or interrupts (ex: Kick,Shield slam,Counterspell)
15. Paladins only get one school of spells (holy) which means if they get counterspelled... they are locked out of doing EVERYTHING. that includes reapplying seals, buffs, healing... since all their spells and skills are of the holy school.
16.no emergency CD that helps mana replenishment
17.Paladins that actually want to get endgame DPS gear are forced to be last in line for other primary dps classes
18. While paladins need Spell damage if they want to be a shockadin, melee spell damage weapons (Ex: azuresong mageblade, bloodcaller,Romthalis)go to casters first, even though they get staffs.
19.If paladins want to stack Agi and Crit, those gear drops mostly go to all other primary dpsing classes before paladins aswell. in some cases, even 2h swords and axes go to hunters over paladins.
20.Paladin Gear issues extend even into healing drops. They must battle loot tables with both druids and priests when it comes to
21. seal/judgement of wisdom/light/justice are all pretty much worthless. Unless your guild allows you to do wisdom on Slime boss in aq40, thats about the only good use i can think of for that one at least. Otherwise those debuff slots are far better optimized for more damaging debuffs like Ignite.


You dont understand basic math.

You dont understand padding / covering of abilities to protect them.

You dont understand that Retribution, Enhance, Hunters, Feral, and Fury were all in the same boat.

You dont understand raid debuff slots or your guild was incredibly stupid.

You dont understand even 5% of the real power in a lot of paladin abilities

You're trying to make paladin like Modern WoW, STOP IT.
12/08/2017 04:43 PMPosted by Espure
12/08/2017 04:42 PMPosted by Kinetics
People forget that Paladin blessings are the best buffs in the game too, so even if at release its rogue/hunter/warrior heavy, it will balance itself out because Paladins will be in demand. Same with Shamans and their totems on the horde, in vanilla the buffs were POWERFUL and were needed. No raid is going to take 20 rogues, so there will be rerolls happening over time to needed classes.

Paladins may be in demand, but they won't all be able to be taken as Ret like they all seem to want or even as a tank. They simply can't tank raids by design, but they can DPS... just not as well as they seem to believe they should.

Blessings are incredibly powerful indeed.


I could see maybe, maybe, a exception for a Nightfall equipped Ret paly. When that axe procs it gives +15% spell damage to the raid on that target, but usually its a OT warrior who did that. But besides that yea, its holy or bust. And why not, it was borderline OP with gear, with heals that were free if they crit.
Another thing I'm wondering... would people demanding Paladin changes also demand that other classes which suffered because of their weaknesses be changed as well? Would they support Warrior buffs so they didn't struggle 1-60? What about at 60 in PvP, would they support changes to make them better at fighting 1v1, maybe bringing them up to the level of Paladin? What about giving Druids an in-combat res?

If they changed all the classes to have no weaknesses, they'd be doing the exact same thing that caused the game to get worse - homogenization. If there are no strengths and weaknesses, it's not a good RPG.
I played ret in vanilla and plan to do so again. Some people may have hated that version of ret but I assure you there were people like me who enjoyed the ret support style.
12/08/2017 01:37 PMPosted by Matcauthon

and that survey was proven to be tampered with.

Is this a true statement? I attempted to find such proof and could not. I did find a post with such a title, but the post contents had absolutely zero proof of tampering. If such proof exists, please point it out to me.

furthermore it was posted by an anti classic reddit and thus those strongly in favor of classic the way it was wouldn't go there. the only people who would see it would be those who were in that reddit, and those on these forums, and those who have come to these forums after hearing that there is going to be a classic server.

If you look at the individual questions themselves, you will notice almost complete consensus on some very key "Vanilla" issues, such as flying mounts, faster leveling, LFD, LFR, tokens, when mounts are acquired, etc. All were >90% in the Vanilla spectrum. This strongly implies that the voting population were actually people that want to play a very Vanilla like game. The data does not support your conclusion about the voting population.
12/08/2017 01:37 PMPosted by Matcauthon

and that survey was proven to be tampered with.

Is this a true statement? I attempted to find such proof and could not. I did find a post with such a title, but the post contents had absolutely zero proof of tampering. If such proof exists, please point it out to me.

furthermore it was posted by an anti classic reddit and thus those strongly in favor of classic the way it was wouldn't go there. the only people who would see it would be those who were in that reddit, and those on these forums, and those who have come to these forums after hearing that there is going to be a classic server.

If you look at the individual questions themselves, you will notice almost complete consensus on some very key "Vanilla" issues, such as flying mounts, faster leveling, LFD, LFR, tokens, when mounts are acquired, etc. All were >90% in the Vanilla spectrum. This strongly implies that the voting population were actually people that want to play a very Vanilla like game. The data does not support your conclusion about the voting population.


And until I see a Bnet official survey I'm treating ALL of them with a very large dose of scepticism.

Theres lies,filthy lies and statistics.
12/08/2017 04:50 PMPosted by Appex
I played ret in vanilla and plan to do so again. Some people may have hated that version of ret but I assure you there were people like me who enjoyed the ret support style.


And if I was running a alliance guild I'd literally be snapping you up in a second.
12/08/2017 04:47 PMPosted by Espure
Another thing I'm wondering... would people demanding Paladin changes also demand that other classes which suffered because of their weaknesses be changed as well?

Yes.
Would they support Warrior buffs so they didn't struggle 1-60?

Leveling isn't end-game and doesn't give rewards, ergo, it doesn't matter.

What about at 60 in PvP, would they support changes to make them better at fighting 1v1, maybe bringing them up to the level of Paladin?

PvP wasn't 1v1, so that kind of balance is irrelevant. Paladins weren't gods even in 1v1.

What about giving Druids an in-combat res?

This seems like a suggestion with no statement of the problem it's trying to solve.

If they changed all the classes to have no weaknesses, they'd be doing the exact same thing that caused the game to get worse - homogenization. If there are no strengths and weaknesses, it's not a good RPG.

No weakness != no exclusion from end game content due to being under-powered.

A weakness is something like ret having no mobility or gap closer. Or hunters having a dead-zone with ranged weapons. Or rogues not being able to take a hit, etc.

What I'm asking for is every spec to be good at all forms of end-game that give the best rewards.
12/08/2017 04:57 PMPosted by Curruptress
And if I was running a alliance guild I'd literally be snapping you up in a second.

And your raid will probably suck like 95% of raids in general from vanilla, let alone all the ones who took rets.

Whoever it was going on about "world first" guilds or whatever being the only people who cared so much about raid comp optimization (some rogue) is kinda right, except he would be better off saying the 1-2 guilds worth a damn on any given server as opposed to something even more limited to the tippy top.

Raiders were like 10% of lvl 60s. Of those, maybe 10% were worth being in. Of those, maybe 1% used a ret. Of the true top, absolutely none used a ret. That leaves me with either a lot of garbage to choose from or getting lucky and being the ONE token ret the rare good guild needed. I'd rather not have to suffer that.
sh play retail
12/08/2017 05:14 PMPosted by Akaidian
12/08/2017 04:57 PMPosted by Curruptress
And if I was running a alliance guild I'd literally be snapping you up in a second.

And your raid will probably suck like 95% of raids in general from vanilla, let alone all the ones who took rets.

Whoever it was going on about "world first" guilds or whatever being the only people who cared so much about raid comp optimization (some rogue) is kinda right, except he would be better off saying the 1-2 guilds worth a damn on any given server as opposed to something even more limited to the tippy top.

Raiders were like 10% of lvl 60s. Of those, maybe 10% were worth being in. Of those, maybe 1% used a ret. Of the true top, absolutely none used a ret. That leaves me with either a lot of garbage to choose from or getting lucky and being the ONE token ret the rare good guild needed. I'd rather not have to suffer that.


You have no idea what you're talking about.
I always liked having a ret because then JoW was up all the time and that was tops
12/08/2017 04:42 PMPosted by Kinetics
People forget that Paladin blessings are the best buffs in the game too, so even if at release its rogue/hunter/warrior heavy, it will balance itself out because Paladins will be in demand. Same with Shamans and their totems on the horde, in vanilla the buffs were POWERFUL and were needed. No raid is going to take 20 rogues, so there will be rerolls happening over time to needed classes.


Yep, buffs that were brought by the healing specs.
12/08/2017 05:11 PMPosted by Akaidian
Yes.

Are you arguing for the changes at the same time, or just you first?
Leveling isn't end-game and doesn't give rewards, ergo, it doesn't matter.

Ah ha. Here we go.

Leveling is a huge part of the game in vanilla. Paladins are particularly good at it, as while they're not the fastest, they have a massive amount of defensive utility and power that can take them to 60. Warriors on the other hand lack everything - without gold being funneled into them, they are the absolute worst to level. It's funny that you shrug off something as, "it doesn't matter" and thus don't actually argue for another class's issues with it.

PvP wasn't 1v1, so that kind of balance is irrelevant. Paladins weren't gods even in 1v1.

World PvP was huge in classic, and Warriors were either free HK's or needed an escort in the world unless they severely outgeared whoever they were fighting. If they were opened up on, they couldn't really do anything either. Paladins were very good at 1v1 - something you don't seem to remember or clearly were incapable of doing.

This seems like a suggestion with no statement of the problem it's trying to solve.

That was actually my mistake. For some reason I keep moving to in-combat rather than out of combat. Druids only had an in-combat res, so when they had to res someone who died out of combat... well, that doesn't really happen.

No weakness != no exclusion from end game content due to being under-powered.

A weakness is something like ret having no mobility or gap closer. Or hunters having a dead-zone with ranged weapons. Or rogues not being able to take a hit, etc.

What I'm asking for is every spec to be good at all forms of end-game that give the best rewards.

A weakness of a class is more than just one small thing. It's about the choices you make having an impact on what you are good at and what you are not good at, rather than just one form of being vulnerable. You want every single spec to be good at all forms of endgame, which isn't even an actual thing now. You're asking for Blizzard to take huge risks. You're asking for Blizzard to not give us vanilla, which is what this entire thing is about.

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