A Different method for Hybrids

Classic Discussion
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A lot of people like to joke around about how Resto druids do nothing but cast Innervate when it's off cooldown. Drastically lower the cooldown of Innervate, give it a cast time and reduce its potency. Instant unique support role.

Mind you, this would be more of a drastic number tweak change that would impact Resto gameplay. I'm not usually keen on advocating for such drastic changes for Classic.
12/05/2017 07:05 PMPosted by Xerash
How? Number tweaks to existing spells and talents.

Mana was a thing back then. Changing how damage/healing per mana worked could have a much larger impact than you think.
12/05/2017 07:14 PMPosted by Espure
12/05/2017 07:05 PMPosted by Xerash
How? Number tweaks to existing spells and talents.

Mana was a thing back then. Changing how damage/healing per mana worked could have a much larger impact than you think.


I think you're overestimating the complexity of most small tweaks that could be made. If you were to compile a vanilla server of your own, you would actually find it pretty simple to adjust the mana costs of individual spells or the universal mana regeneration values used for players if desired.

*edit: If you're clinging to my Innervate change proposal, all my change would do is make Innervate castable more frequently, but the effect would be much less potent. It would give Druids more of a unique purpose as Resto. However, we don't have to focus on this proposed change as I personally believe it may be too drastic for Classic.
I disagree with your assumption that increasing "utility" is the best path towards making playing a "hybrid" more appealing. The data suggests that class distribution in the new game called Classic WoW will be, I dare say, ridiculously unbalanced. I think this may be due purely to the fact that people know (without any doubt whatsoever, because that was how it was then) that they will be second class citizens.

The definition of "second class citizen" is:

"a person belonging to a social or political group whose rights and opportunities are inferior to those of the dominant group in a society."

When we tell someone they have to play healer, when the advertised class fantasy and 2/3rds of their talents are for other roles, they become second class citizens. They no longer have the liberty of living out their class fantasy (assuming it was other than healing). They are relegated to buff slaves. Might you bring a Ret? Sure, if he has kings, but of course the best (non-leveling) Ret spec doesn’t have kings (unless you mean the best “raid” spec, which would of course prove my point precisely).

Being sufficiently good* to fulfill class fantasy for all advertised primary roles (dps/heal/tank) is necessary for someone to choose to play that class. I don’t mean being sufficiently good for everyone elses numbers, though that does play a part, but also sufficiently good personally. Looking at dps meters (which people do, its just reality), and seeing yourself doing half the dps of an average player of the elite classes, despite having perfectly fine gear, is demoralizing. It’s not devestating, it’s just a game, but its a reduction in immersion, and a reduction in fun. Not for everyone, but for enough, and that “enough” is a very important concept. How many people do you know who would choose to pretty much suck at their desired role, just to make others look good. I know a couple, but not more than a couple. Its not enough.

For example: who wants to try to raid as a paladin swinging a wet noodle, while that warrior hybrid standing next to you is doing twice your damage? Who wants to try to tank as a paladin without a taunt, and shield and threat talents that you do everything in your power to make ineffective (eliminate crit), while that warrior sitting next to you tanks purely because their shield ability and shield talents don’t have that (extremely poorly designed) limitation. At that point, why not just roll a warrior?

Oh ya, everyone will. Thats what all the data suggests. 20+% warriors is what Classic WoW will be. Classic World of Warriorcraft is the game people are pushing for.

I mean, that's not really fair of me, because there will be plenty of rogues, mages and priests as well. And yes, people intend to play the other classes. But not many. The data suggests 4/9 of the classes will be played by 60-63% of the population. Guess which 4 classes those are. Guess which ones are on the bottom.

Without class adjustments, we WILL have massive class imbalance. I believe that will create a game that just really isn't anywhere near as good as it could have been. I advocate for class adjustments, not because I want my favorite class to be better (I'm gonna play one of the aristocrats (mage!)), but because if I am going to spend some time there, which I very much intend, I want it to be a healthy society, where people are able to fulfill their class fantasy, without being relegated to "buff slave", or "healbot", unless of course, either of those two roles is their class fantasy.

*It has been said “those arguing for class balancing can’t even agree on what they want” (paraphrased). This is true. “Sufficiently good” is vague. It is a conversation that needs to be had to figure out what that means. We need to talk about numbers, directions, ideas, what is the absolute minimum required to achieve “sufficient” (a very non-WoW idea, minimum adjustments…) It is really difficult to have that conversation when everyone keeps saying that it is blasphemous to even speak the words “balance”, or “adjustment”.
12/05/2017 07:18 PMPosted by Chunlí
I disagree with your assumption that increasing "utility" is the best path towards making playing a "hybrid" more appealing. The data suggests that class distribution in the new game called Classic WoW will be, I dare say, ridiculously unbalanced. I think this may be due purely to the fact that people know (without any doubt whatsoever, because that was how it was then) that they will be second class citizens.

The definition of "second class citizen" is:

"a person belonging to a social or political group whose rights and opportunities are inferior to those of the dominant group in a society."

When we tell someone they have to play healer, when the advertised class fantasy and 2/3rds of their talents are for other roles, they become second class citizens. They no longer have the liberty of living out their class fantasy (assuming it was other than healing). They are relegated to buff slaves. Might you bring a Ret? Sure, if he has kings, but of course the best (non-leveling) Ret spec doesn’t have kings (unless you mean the best “raid” spec, which would of course prove my point precisely).

Being sufficiently good* to fulfill class fantasy for all advertised primary roles (dps/heal/tank) is necessary for someone to choose to play that class. I don’t mean being sufficiently good for everyone elses numbers, though that does play a part, but also sufficiently good personally. Looking at dps meters (which people do, its just reality), and seeing yourself doing half the dps of an average player of the elite classes, despite having perfectly fine gear, is demoralizing. It’s not devestating, it’s just a game, but its a reduction in immersion, and a reduction in fun. Not for everyone, but for enough, and that “enough” is a very important concept. How many people do you know who would choose to pretty much suck at their desired role, just to make others look good. I know a couple, but not more than a couple. Its not enough.

For example: who wants to try to raid as a paladin swinging a wet noodle, while that warrior hybrid standing next to you is doing twice your damage? Who wants to try to tank as a paladin without a taunt, and shield and threat talents that you do everything in your power to make ineffective (eliminate crit), while that warrior sitting next to you tanks purely because their shield ability and shield talents don’t have that (extremely poorly designed) limitation. At that point, why not just roll a warrior?

Oh ya, everyone will. Thats what all the data suggests. 20+% warriors is what Classic WoW will be. Classic World of Warriorcraft is the game people are pushing for.

I mean, that's not really fair of me, because there will be plenty of rogues, mages and priests as well. And yes, people intend to play the other classes. But not many. The data suggests 4/9 of the classes will be played by 60-63% of the population. Guess which 4 classes those are. Guess which ones are on the bottom.

Without class adjustments, we WILL have massive class imbalance. I believe that will create a game that just really isn't anywhere near as good as it could have been. I advocate for class adjustments, not because I want my favorite class to be better (I'm gonna play one of the aristocrats (mage!)), but because if I am going to spend some time there, which I very much intend, I want it to be a healthy society, where people are able to fulfill their class fantasy, without being relegated to "buff slave", or "healbot", unless of course, either of those two roles is their class fantasy.

*It has been said “those arguing for class balancing can’t even agree on what they want” (paraphrased). This is true. “Sufficiently good” is vague. It is a conversation that needs to be had to figure out what that means. We need to talk about numbers, directions, ideas, what is the absolute minimum required to achieve “sufficient” (a very non-WoW idea, minimum adjustments…) It is really difficult to have that conversation when everyone keeps saying that it is blasphemous to even speak the words “balance”, or “adjustment”.


Too bad for you, vanilla isnt about class "fantasy". You can be a crusader on Legion. Btw no, its not making it difficult to have a discussion on class balance when people say its "blasphemous" to talk about it. They are adding to the discussion. They are saying NO, and NO CLASS BALANCING is a completely valid stance whether you agree with it or not.
12/05/2017 07:46 PMPosted by Faustor

Too bad for you, vanilla isnt about class "fantasy".

I beg to differ. So do the devs. Every interview, every talent tree, every advertisement of every class, every single thing having to do with WoW back then says exactly the opposite of this. The fact that Vanilla TURNED INTO something where such a statement could be made WAS THE OPPOSITE OF INTENT, by admission of the devs, on several occasions. That was why they FIXED THE BUGS that created that problem in 2.0. If they hadn't been in 2.0, they would have been in 1.13, just as attempts to fix those same bugs were in so many patches prior.

Btw no, its not making it difficult to have a discussion on class balance when people say its "blasphemous" to talk about it. They are adding to the discussion. They are saying NO, and NO CLASS BALANCING is a completely valid stance whether you agree with it or not.

If I am trying to have a conversation about something, and 10 people are standing in the corner screaming NO, NO, NO, it is very difficult. It's a perfectly valid stance to say NO, repeatedly until your eyes bleed, it's freedom of speech (though if you do it enough, instead they put you in an insane asylum...) But I dare say, it does not "contribute" to the conversation, because you are not trying to contribute to the SAME conversation. Me not agreeing with it is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the conversation I wish to have. It's part of a DIFFERENT conversation.

Let me elaborate very slightly. You, and those who say, "NO, NO, NO" wish to discuss whether or not there should be class balancing. (I guess, although NO doesn't seem to be much of a conversation to me.) I, and others like me, wish to have a conversation about what the tweaks should be to achieve OUR goals (not yours). Do you see how those are two separate (though I admit slightly related) conversations?

Two different topics:

--Should there be class balancing.
--If there is class balancing, what should the adjustments be.

They have a completely different set of axioms, ergo, they are different conversations.

Interrupting ones groups speech with screaming is allowed by law (to an extent), but is NOT another side to the SAME conversation.
12/05/2017 06:16 PMPosted by Chunlí
12/05/2017 06:10 PMPosted by Mogar
You're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
All poll and private server data to the contrary apparently.


The majority of people wanted spec balance.
The majority of people wanted easier dungeons.
The majority of people wanted easier raids.
The majority of people wanted easy ways to group.
The majority of people wanted easier ways to get gear.
The majority of people wanted talent trees gutted.
The majority of people wanted professions to be meaningless.

So go play retail WoW. Sheesh.
12/05/2017 06:53 PMPosted by Mogar
12/05/2017 06:50 PMPosted by Ashtro
Ret pally's are basically warriors without a charge/mobility now... wtf? lol
I cringe a little bit when people say something like 'ret paladin'. You're not a ret pally. You're a paladin. Yes, you put the majority of your talent points into ret, but that doesn't change your character. That's the Legion way. You respec in Legion you completely change. Specing in Vanilla is concentrating a bit more on a particular playstyle..but maintaining the core fundamentals of your class. That would necessarily have to go away in order to 'balance' each and every spec. We've been through that once already in Live. Let's not do it again in Classic.


I was referring to how ret paladins are in legion not vanilla
12/05/2017 08:14 PMPosted by Rahn

The majority of people wanted spec balance.
The majority of people wanted easier dungeons.
The majority of people wanted easier raids.
The majority of people wanted easy ways to group.
The majority of people wanted easier ways to get gear.
The majority of people wanted talent trees gutted.
The majority of people wanted professions to be meaningless.

I don't WANT any of these. I have presented arguments, based on several sets of statistical data (which I have presented several times in other threads, and would be happy to do so here again) that suggests that a Classic WoW without class adjustments will have a Class representation imbalance greater than anything ever experienced in WoWs history, by a large margin. To me this suggests a VERY un-Vanilla experience, and an overall less healthy game.

While these assertions are certainly debatable, they logically follows from some reasonable axioms. (Again, I will be happy to recreate that here, though I have posted arguments on these assertions as well, several times in other threads on related topics.)

I suppose you could say that closely matches your first statement, though "want" and arguments for necessity do represent two very different drives.

As for your other statements, they quite literally have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Why would you attempt to bring them into a conversation? Do you wish to talk about all of those?

If you want my opinion on the rest (again, a completely unrelated topic) they would be:

No, no, no, no, no and... umm... Let me think about it....

no.
So go play retail WoW. Sheesh.

That would be a fate worse than death. (Actually, I imagine death to be better, because when you're dead, your suffering is likely over.)
12/05/2017 08:14 PMPosted by Rahn

The majority of people wanted spec balance.
The majority of people wanted easier dungeons.
The majority of people wanted easier raids.
The majority of people wanted easy ways to group.
The majority of people wanted easier ways to get gear.
The majority of people wanted talent trees gutted.
The majority of people wanted professions to be meaningless.

I don't WANT any of these. I have presented arguments, based on several sets of statistical data (which I have presented several times in other threads, and would be happy to do so here again) that suggests that a Classic WoW without class adjustments will have a Class representation imbalance greater than anything ever experienced in WoWs history, by a large margin. To me this suggests a VERY un-Vanilla experience, and an overall less healthy game.

While these assertions are certainly debatable, they logically follows from some reasonable axioms. (Again, I will be happy to recreate that here, though I have posted arguments on these assertions as well, several times in other threads on related topics.)

I suppose you could say that closely matches your first statement, though "want" and arguments for necessity do represent two very different drives.

As for your other statements, they quite literally have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Why would you attempt to bring them into a conversation? Do you wish to talk about all of those?

If you want my opinion on the rest (again, a completely unrelated topic) they would be:

No, no, no, no, no and... umm... Let me think about it....

no.
So go play retail WoW. Sheesh.

That would be a fate worse than death. (Actually, I imagine death to be better, because when you're dead, your suffering is likely over.)


Tell me. What do you suggest blizzard do about the fact that on lives rogues, locks and monks are all underrepresented? And have been so since Wrath?

Buffing hybrids utility is a great way to make them more viable.

If boomkins and cats auras were made raid wide and increased to 5% they are all of a sudden w lot more worthwhile instead of 5 people getting 3%, 40 people get 5%.
12/05/2017 05:55 PMPosted by Azóth
    Elemental Focus
    Gives you a 10% chance to enter a Clearcasting state after casting any Fire, Frost, or Nature spell. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 100%

    V
    Becomes
    V

    Elemental Focus
    Gives you and nearby allies a 10% chance to enter a Clearcasting state each time you cast any Fire, Frost, or Nature Spell. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of the target's next Fire, Frost, or Nature spell by 100%


that is an interesting suggestion
it isn't deep into the elemental tree, but also, you wont be getting it much from an elemental shaman, or realistically getting it from a resto shaman

what id suggested instead is turning lightning mastery into a 3 point talent and making it the requirement for a talent placed under elemental fury; as follows:

2 point passive talent
refunds 7/15% of the mana cost of your lightning and chain lightning spells upon critically striking with them(maximum of 1 refund per cast), and causes tranquil air totem to reduce threat generation by an additional 2/5%

i have that and many more suggestions for hybrids in a pastebin's class changes sections, which I'll link if someone wants
As a former vanilla shadowpriest...our dps was good and we were really good at pvp (except against rogue/warr and some hunter hahaha). The only problem we had for raiding (besides the debuff limit) was the mana consumption. We werent top dps and had no AoE (perfectly fine with me) but the problem was we usually run out of mana in 2 mins without anyway to recover it besides pots and demonic rune that you had to farm in winterspring (Innervating a shadowpriest? haha not gonna happen) meanwhile locks used soul tap and mages evocation. This was corrected in BC with vampiric touch. Some little mana recovery (just enough for mandatory mana pots be sufficient) or reduced mana cost of spells would be perfect. With that change i would roll a shadowpriest again for sure and if not..ill just roll a mage xD (its unlikely ill be able to get a Choker of the Fire Lord from Rag again as a shadowpriest for a while)
12/05/2017 05:55 PMPosted by Azóth
Ok, now, whenever I read threads talking about re-balancing hybrids, the bottom line always comes down to "increase their DPS", in varying degrees. Some say hybrids should do about 60%-70% the DPS of a pure, a few say they should be equal. In any case, the bottom line is always "increase DPS".


You're mistaken. "Increase DPS" isn't the bottom-line, it's just that flat number increases are the only way to reconcile "rebuild parts of the class" with "don't change anything ever if even one pixel is wrong I'm playing on private servers." If you aren't allowed to change a class's playstyle, at all, there's not much you can do beyond buffs/nerfs to numbers.

Upping DPS is just the easy way to do what you're trying to do. Most pro-change people are OK with other solutions, but want to keep the solutions from changing things that will set off the purists.

12/05/2017 06:18 PMPosted by Mogar
The classes are not designed in that manner. It's the core of the game: rpg elements supersede raw numbers. Niches, strengths, weaknesses...all of these things are necessary to the overall experience.


Whatever you're describing isn't Vanilla WoW. RPG elements did not supersede raw numbers, numbers nearly always won. A number of RPG elements never even showed up, Fire and Arcane Mages, let alone Warlocks, even existing as playable classes tells you RP was a secondary concern by far. Solving the issue of weak classes that observably leads to awful class diversity, and has multiple times, does not require removing any RPG elements, niches, strengths or weaknesses. The vanilla WoW developers understood this. It has nothing to do with Legion, that's just your obsession.

12/05/2017 06:44 PMPosted by Espure
They tried to do that with live though, and we saw how that turned out.


No they didn't. Retail didn't go the way of "strengthening the unique aspects of classes to make them more attractive," they did the exact opposite and removed unique aspects specifically to remove any reason to bring one class over another.

12/05/2017 06:27 PMPosted by Espure
Why introduce that when they don't have to? Why change what worked in the past?


Because it didn't work in the past, and it's very obviously already not working in the present. You played a [spec] [class] in Vanilla just as much as you do in retail today. Just because it didn't steal spells from you like it does now doesn't change that. That's why people say it's important to keep 50g respec costs and not add dual spec to Classic, because the spec you choose is important.

"You play a class not a spec" and "you shouldn't be able to change your spec freely because it makes your spec meaningless" are mutually exclusive. If you play a class and your spec doesn't factor into gameplay then spec is already meaningless. If you can't be allowed to change spec freely because it will make your spec unimportant then your spec must factor heavily into how you play your class.

You can argue against spec balance or you can argue against dual spec, arguing against both is logically inconsistent. "But Vanilla..." you say. Vanilla chose to balance specs and make the choice of spec meaningful.

12/05/2017 07:01 PMPosted by Espure
Some go without (Rogues, Warriors, Warlocks, etc) but others would need it more. But again - that's vanilla.


It's funny how you cite Warlocks as not being debuff reliant while you claim to know the design philosophy of Vanilla WoW. Yea, Shadowbolt spam got pretty good with enough gear. That was just another way Vanilla WoW failed to deliver what it intended to deliver.

12/05/2017 07:46 PMPosted by Faustor
Too bad for you, vanilla isnt about class "fantasy". You can be a crusader on Legion. Btw no, its not making it difficult to have a discussion on class balance when people say its "blasphemous" to talk about it. They are adding to the discussion. They are saying NO, and NO CLASS BALANCING is a completely valid stance whether you agree with it or not.


He says while arguing that RPG elements of classes were taken above everything else in Vanilla WoW. RPG elements ARE class fantasy.
12/06/2017 01:41 AMPosted by Matcauthon
Tell me. What do you suggest blizzard do about the fact that on lives rogues, locks and monks are all underrepresented? And have been so since Wrath?

I'm not concerned about representatio so much as I am the actual power of the things. If everything is verifiably balanced, but now we have 90% ret paladins instead of a blend of classes, that just says to me that a higher percentage of people like the holy crusader archetype when the only thing they're choosing is what appeals to them and not power.

That's not a problem. It would be like if 90% of the word's favorite color was blue.

Buffing hybrids utility is a great way to make them more viable.

I'm 100% onboard with this. I don't care how it's done, I just don't want to be actively hated on because I like and want to raid as ret. I want the same opportunities other desirable specs have.

If boomkins and cats auras were made raid wide and increased to 5% they are all of a sudden w lot more worthwhile instead of 5 people getting 3%, 40 people get 5%.


On thing to note about this method is it still doesn't solve what I call the "token" problem. I'd much prefer you reduce the number, or leave it at 3%, and make the aura per character and stackable, so you don't just get your one cat/boom/ret whatever and say "k, now we've checked that box, lets move on."

In order to be truly viable and support a model where demand for a spec equals the supply, you need to be able to swap classes in and out on a 1:1 basis for their role.
why buff hybrids? i main shaman and druid and actually enjoy playing them. always had an easy time finding groups and raid spot. they have great impact in pvp (wpvp and bg), more specifically druid. both have decent leveling specs. what more do you want?
12/06/2017 08:29 AMPosted by Brolyn
why buff hybrids? i main shaman and druid and actually enjoy playing them. always had an easy time finding groups and raid spot. they have great impact in pvp (wpvp and bg), more specifically druid. both have decent leveling specs. what more do you want?

but do you have an easy time finding a raid spot when you aren't resto and aren't willing to respec to resto?
Most people are specifically asking for the specs that were useless/token/less desired in raids to be buffed. It doesn't matter if the spec was good at something else. Holy paladins got to be godly pvp healers while also great in pve. Plenty of similar stories.
12/06/2017 08:30 AMPosted by Tarregor
but do you have an easy time finding a raid spot when you aren't resto and aren't willing to respec to resto?


Yes if the raid isnt already stacked with melee. You guys are way over-exaggerating how strict people playing vanilla will be about what classes are accepted into raids. Playing on private servers since Nost and having main both a pally and shaman at separate times, I never had a problem getting a raid spot, even when I was rolling as ret with engi and nightfall, I was raiding AQ 40.

Yes, theres gonna be an over-representation of rogues and warriors, mainly cause of the narrative you keep peddling, but this will cause an insane amount of competition between those players, meaning far fewer raid spots available. If 40% of the population ended up playing rogues and warriors, only 10-20% of them will ever be taken to raids. Most people that level a warrior honestly wont even get to 40, then they will re-roll to a class they actually enjoy, like all of you should, cause YES, I will take your balance druid for the crit and innervate, yes, i will take your ret pally for the dank buffs and raid saving off heals. Yes, ill even take your shadow priest as long as you loaded up on pots and shadow runes. Vanilla raiding isnt as number crunching as mythic is. In a 40 man, you essentially have 10-15 people being carried, so if you can show up, play your class well regardless of spec you chose, ill take you over the cookie cutter warrior.
12/06/2017 08:51 AMPosted by Faustor

Yes if the raid isnt already stacked with melee. You guys are way over-exaggerating how strict people playing vanilla will be about what classes are accepted into raids. Playing on private servers since Nost and having main both a pally and shaman at separate times


This is where your expertise falls off. You're forgetting this isn't going to be full of the ~250k private server people that signed the petition. They're going to be a drop in the bucket. Retail players will be here en-masse (the millions) and will have the same mindset they have now, which is basically what existed back in original vanilla anyways.

Go look in GD or any other popular forum, such as MMO champ. There are endless !@#$%fests about "zomg toxic community requiring unrealistic metrics to get into their groups!"

That's what you should be expecting, because that's the mindset now, and it will carry over into classic. This is why I lol at all those people who say they want toe original experience of community.

You're delusional and in for a shock. Whereas 0.1% or whatever were raiders back in the day, and therefor you might not have been subjected to the elitism that existed then, it's far "worse" now and you will be crushed playing a scrub spec.
12/05/2017 05:55 PMPosted by Azóth
Before I even begin I want to make a few disclaimers.

1) The purpose of this thread is NOT to advocate for the re-balancing of hybrids, but merely to discuss an idea that I haven't seen anyone talk about. When it comes to classic, I would rather have "no changes" than "too many changes".

2) the examples I give towards the end are not meant to be taken seriously as "balanced" or what I think should happen. They are meant to illustrate the idea I will present. I'll also base things on the 1.12 talents for the sake of simplicity, and because they're the most easily located via google.

My thesis is this: increasing the raw DPS of hybrid classes is the wrong way to increase their desirability. Instead, their utility should be increased.

Ok, now, whenever I read threads talking about re-balancing hybrids, the bottom line always comes down to "increase their DPS", in varying degrees. Some say hybrids should do about 60%-70% the DPS of a pure, a few say they should be equal. In any case, the bottom line is always "increase DPS".

I'm positive that this is the wrong way to approach improving the "viability" and variety of raid compositions when it comes to the inclusion of hybrid classes and specs.

The counter argument I see made is that hybrids bring valuable utility. However, this utility is very limited. So some specs are not viewed as useful at all, such as Balance Druids, whose DPS is inferior to pures, and whose utility (Moonkin Aura) is not strong enough to warrant taking in the place of a pure. Other classes only need only one individual of that specific spec, such as a Shadow Priest for applying Shadow Weaving, so that bringing more than one is redundant and sub-optimal.

My proposal instead, is to take the utility offered by these specs and buff them in meaningful ways that would encourage a raid to take more than one of these "support specs" rather than stacking DPS, and without turning these specs into full-fledged DPS. Also, allow the spec to fulfill its intended role, even if the method is indirect.

I'll start my examples with Shadow Priests, since they are already the closest to what I mean. Clearly, a Shadow Priest is meant to DPS. However, they do less than Mages and Warlocks, and are mostly brought to buff Warlocks with Shadow Weaving. They have a healing mechanics with Vampiric Embrace, but because of the debuff limit, they cannot effectively use this ability in a raid. I'm not going to say "get rid of the debuff limit" because that wouldn't actually solve the problem (and because it's more fun for me to think of ways to circumvent the debuff limit). You would still only ever bring one Shadow Priest then, because if I remember correctly, a Shadow Priest could only heal from their own cast of Vampiric Embrace (if I'm mistaken on this then I apologize, I'm sure you'll correct me soon). What if instead, Vampiric Embrace becomes a self-cast buff?

    Vampiric Embrace
    Afflicts your target with Shadow energy that causes all party members to be healed for 20% of any Shadow spell damage you deal for 1 min

    V
    Becomes
    V

    Vampiric Embrace
    For 1 min your shadow spells sap life from your enemies, healing party members for 20% of any Shadow spell damage you deal.


Now, you can bring multiple Shadow Priests to provide group/raid-wide healing to alleviate a little bit of the healing pressure from the dedicated healers. The Shadow Priests get to do their DPS job, but by doing so, they also provide healing and a damage increase to their allies, even if they themselves don't outright do more damage.

Next hypothetical example: Elemental Shamans, the masters of elements right? Rather than outright increase their damage, allow them to buff the power of elemental abilities around them in some capacity. Take the Elemental Focus and Elemental Mastery talents and allow them to affect nearby allies.

    Elemental Focus
    Gives you a 10% chance to enter a Clearcasting state after casting any Fire, Frost, or Nature spell. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 100%

    V
    Becomes
    V

    Elemental Focus
    Gives you and nearby allies a 10% chance to enter a Clearcasting state each time you cast any Fire, Frost, or Nature Spell. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of the target's next Fire, Frost, or Nature spell by 100%


    Elemental Mastery
    When activated, this spell gives your next Fire, Frost, or Nature damage spell a 100% critical strike chance and reduces the mana cost by 100%

    V
    Becomes
    V

    Elemental Mastery
    When activated, this spell empowers the spells of you and nearby allies, giving each affected target 100% critical strike chance and 100% reduced mana cost on their next Fire, Frost, or Nature spell.


With these tweaks the Elemental Shaman, as an individual, wouldn't be altered too much. But the potential power that a group of shamans could bring to a raid through procs of Elemental Focus and rotating casts of Elemental Mastery would be substantial. That's the idea anyway.

There's plenty of classes I haven't covered, but I feel I've already gone on long enough. If people are interested enough then we can come up with more ideas in further discussion!

Anyway, I hope you get the idea; give hybrids creative ways to fulfill their roles through utility rather than raw damage increase.

As I said in the beginning, I know these changes are probably not really realistic (it's not like I did the math). But for the sake of discussing an alternative perspective on what hybrids could be, I thought it'd be fun to at least put the idea out there. I know there will be plenty of "no"s in the responses, so for those who slogged through my post and at least gave it some consideration, I'll say thank you in advance :)

I only hope we can move the discussion away from "increase hybrid DPS", and have some fun exploring more creative solutions instead.


Well no, it introduces PvP disbalance so nope.

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