A Different method for Hybrids

Classic Discussion
12/06/2017 09:00 AMPosted by Akaidian
12/06/2017 08:51 AMPosted by Faustor

Yes if the raid isnt already stacked with melee. You guys are way over-exaggerating how strict people playing vanilla will be about what classes are accepted into raids. Playing on private servers since Nost and having main both a pally and shaman at separate times


This is where your expertise falls off. You're forgetting this isn't going to be full of the ~250k private server people that signed the petition. They're going to be a drop in the bucket. Retail players will be here en-masse (the millions) and will have the same mindset they have now, which is basically what existed back in original vanilla anyways.

Go look in GD or any other popular forum, such as MMO champ. There are endless !@#$%fests about "zomg toxic community requiring unrealistic metrics to get into their groups!"

That's what you should be expecting, because that's the mindset now, and it will carry over into classic. This is why I lol at all those people who say they want toe original experience of community.

You're delusional and in for a shock. Whereas 0.1% or whatever were raiders back in the day, and therefor you might not have been subjected to the elitism that existed then, it's far "worse" now and you will be crushed playing a scrub spec.


to add to this; the consensus that the majority of players go by(the majority's opinions) is formed by the elitist minmaxers who wouldn't bring a feral druid balance druid ret paladin elem shaman or enh shaman to a raid, and would only bring a single resto druid to MC, ony, and BWL, solely for MotW and thorns
12/06/2017 09:09 AMPosted by Rongente
Well no, it introduces PvP disbalance so nope.


MFW pvp imbalance in vanilla was already rampant. It didn't matter, since the forms of PvP that were actually meaningful revolved around zerg rushing, but acting like pvp was somehow a balanced masterpiece in vanilla is laughable.
12/06/2017 08:27 AMPosted by Akaidian
In order to be truly viable and support a model where demand for a spec equals the supply, you need to be able to swap classes in and out on a 1:1 basis for their role.

[/quote]

except, as we have pointed out, classic was balanced around classes, not specs.

and tell me. if a hybrid is doing enough dps that i can seriously consider swapping one in for a pure, WHY WOULDN'T I JUST STACK Hybrids? they bring better utility, better survival, and in general offer a bunch of stuff i'll never get out of pures.

Paladins - Bubbles, heals, Cleanses, and ofcourse they bring Lay on Hands. one of the best "Oh Crap" Buttons in the game.
that kitty? brings innervate. now i don't have to worry about my healers going oom. and Battle Rez. Dang. another great Oh Crap Button.
Same with the boomer.

If I could seriously swap out a pure with a hybrid and the dps be relatively the same.

i would bring warlocks (Health Stones, Soul Stones), 1 Mage (Arcane Intellect), and Nothing but Hybrids after that. I would have an invincible army that would have so many oh crap buttons that my raid would literally never wipe.

You're problem is you want raids to bring multiple of each dps hybrid. the problem with this is it promotes class stacking the opposite way of what you "CLAIM" Vanilla did (which outside of top guilds, was not true. my guild had at least 1 of each hybrid dps spec, and it was because they were good at there class, not there utility. and we were in naxx).

But heres the thing

when you have 2-4 tanks.
and 10-15 healers.

depending on the fight.

if you start making it so that Hybrids are fully viable to replace pures on a pure dps only scale. well let me ask you this.

lets say i run 2 of each hybrid spec.

now we have 2 ret, 2 balance, 2 shadow, and 2 feral.

that means i have 2-4 tanks, 10-15 healers (depending on fight), and 8 hybrid dps.

that leaves me with 13-20 spots for the other 4.5 classes (Rogues, Warlocks, Hunters, Mages, and DPS warriors). lets say we run 2 DPS warrior. now thats anywhere between 11-18 spots for the 4 classes that are pures.

that means they get anywhere between slightly over 2.5 spots to slightly over 3 spots per raid.

at least with the way it was in vanilla your hybrid classes had 3 spots minimum.

You want Spec Balance. And Spec Balance will NOT WORK IN VANILLA Unless you do one thing and only one thing.

Homogenization. And frankly, that isn't vanilla.
12/06/2017 09:46 AMPosted by Matcauthon

except, as we have pointed out, classic was balanced around classes, not specs.


And I disagree with that philosophy wholeheartedly. There's no point to play a spec that can't engage in the ultimate content wow has to offer, meaning there's really no point for it to exist. Despite how long it took to get there, etc, classic is still all about the end-game.

and tell me. if a hybrid is doing enough dps that i can seriously consider swapping one in for a pure, WHY WOULDN'T I JUST STACK Hybrids? they bring better utility, better survival, and in general offer a bunch of stuff i'll never get out of pures.


I've explained this before, but I'm not saying DPS of each spec needs to be equal. I'm saying the worth of all spec's entire kit needs to be equal. Whatever worth utility has, the dps needs to compensate to equal 100%. Clearly it didn't, or people wouldn't have hated on ret as much as they did. It's really that simple.

If I could seriously swap out a pure with a hybrid and the dps be relatively the same.


DPS doesn't need to be the same, the raids just have to be equally worthy.

You're problem is you want raids to bring multiple of each dps hybrid. the problem with this is it promotes class stacking the opposite way of what you "CLAIM" Vanilla did (which outside of top guilds, was not true. my guild had at least 1 of each hybrid dps spec, and it was because they were good at there class, not there utility. and we were in naxx).


Even if you have 1 of each spec, you still stacked the better ones. That's the point.

if you start making it so that Hybrids are fully viable to replace pures on a pure dps only scale. well let me ask you this.


This is what you're not understanding from my argument. I'm not asking for this. I'm saying a pure is worth, say, 100 points, and those points come purely from DPS. A hybrid healer was worth 100 points as well, where those points came from utility + healing. A hybrid dps was worth maybe 80 points (being generous) where those points came from utiity + dmg. It needs to be worth 100 points. I don't care if that's on the utility side or DPS side, but I'm saying DPS is easier, because utility value is subjective. Realistically, you don't need LoH, DI, etc, because you shouldn't be !@#$ing up to actually need that stuff, but there are gonna be some people that demand it has a value, so whatever. Just do the damage side and be done with it,

You want Spec Balance. And Spec Balance will NOT WORK IN VANILLA Unless you do one thing and only one thing.

Homogenization. And frankly, that isn't vanilla.


That's an entirely false statement. There are an infinite number of possibilities that could get us there. Whether blizz is capable, will do it, etc, is irrelevant. That you can't understand the infinite possibilities to get to where hybrid dps specs are valid and welcome just like pures in such a way that you could stack 20 pures, or 20 hybrids, or any combination within, isn't my problem.

I'm not expecting absolute perfection, but I am expecting better than what it was. Or I'll just roll warrior and be the sacred child of blizzard and enjoy actively hating on any ret paladin that dares to enter my guild's raid, belittling him and putting him down for being pathetic.

What I won't do this time around is ride the struggle bus just because I like it the best from a thematic standpoint. I'll just do that on live.
12/06/2017 09:46 AMPosted by Matcauthon

except, as we have pointed out, classic was balanced around classes, not specs.


And I disagree with that philosophy wholeheartedly. There's no point to play a spec that can't engage in the ultimate content wow has to offer, meaning there's really no point for it to exist. Despite how long it took to get there, etc, classic is still all about the end-game.

and tell me. if a hybrid is doing enough dps that i can seriously consider swapping one in for a pure, WHY WOULDN'T I JUST STACK Hybrids? they bring better utility, better survival, and in general offer a bunch of stuff i'll never get out of pures.


I've explained this before, but I'm not saying DPS of each spec needs to be equal. I'm saying the worth of all spec's entire kit needs to be equal. Whatever worth utility has, the dps needs to compensate to equal 100%. Clearly it didn't, or people wouldn't have hated on ret as much as they did. It's really that simple.

If I could seriously swap out a pure with a hybrid and the dps be relatively the same.


DPS doesn't need to be the same, the raids just have to be equally worthy.

You're problem is you want raids to bring multiple of each dps hybrid. the problem with this is it promotes class stacking the opposite way of what you "CLAIM" Vanilla did (which outside of top guilds, was not true. my guild had at least 1 of each hybrid dps spec, and it was because they were good at there class, not there utility. and we were in naxx).


Even if you have 1 of each spec, you still stacked the better ones. That's the point.

if you start making it so that Hybrids are fully viable to replace pures on a pure dps only scale. well let me ask you this.


This is what you're not understanding from my argument. I'm not asking for this. I'm saying a pure is worth, say, 100 points, and those points come purely from DPS. A hybrid healer was worth 100 points as well, where those points came from utility + healing. A hybrid dps was worth maybe 80 points (being generous) where those points came from utiity + dmg. It needs to be worth 100 points. I don't care if that's on the utility side or DPS side, but I'm saying DPS is easier, because utility value is subjective. Realistically, you don't need LoH, DI, etc, because you shouldn't be !@#$ing up to actually need that stuff, but there are gonna be some people that demand it has a value, so whatever. Just do the damage side and be done with it,

You want Spec Balance. And Spec Balance will NOT WORK IN VANILLA Unless you do one thing and only one thing.

Homogenization. And frankly, that isn't vanilla.


That's an entirely false statement. There are an infinite number of possibilities that could get us there. Whether blizz is capable, will do it, etc, is irrelevant. That you can't understand the infinite possibilities to get to where hybrid dps specs are valid and welcome just like pures in such a way that you could stack 20 pures, or 20 hybrids, or any combination within, isn't my problem.

I'm not expecting absolute perfection, but I am expecting better than what it was. Or I'll just roll warrior and be the sacred child of blizzard and enjoy actively hating on any ret paladin that dares to enter my guild's raid, belittling him and putting him down for being pathetic.

What I won't do this time around is ride the struggle bus just because I like it the best from a thematic standpoint. I'll just do that on live.


"What I won't do this time around is ride the struggle bus just because I like it the best from a thematic standpoint. I'll just do that on live"

And that's why Vanilla Classic won't be for most of whoever is on BfA...Bottom line is balancing won't really happen.

You play as class for what it needs to bring, and that's whether healing, being a buff vending machine or Mana Tide Beyotch...Paladins will never raid tank, be dps on the level of pure dps class etc in Classic. If you want to play paladin don't plan on being a great dps in a raid plain and simple. Spam that FoL and be happy lol
12/06/2017 09:46 AMPosted by Matcauthon
except, as we have pointed out, classic was balanced around classes, not specs.


You have never "pointed this out." You have claimed it as true, had your claim shot down, and never once came back with any evidence of Blizzard saying anything approaching "We never wanted specs to be balanced."

And you have yet to answer the question of, if spec is so meaningless because you play a class and not a spec, how cheap respecs or dual spec will harm the Vanilla experience.

12/06/2017 09:46 AMPosted by Matcauthon
WHY WOULDN'T I JUST STACK Hybrids? they bring better utility, better survival, and in general offer a bunch of stuff i'll never get out of pures.


You wouldn't stack hybrids because there's literally zero need to, even for bad raids, but you frankly have no understanding of what utility and survival mechanics pures had in Vanilla.

Even if, somehow, we go from stacking pures like happened in Vanilla and happens on Vanilla private servers today, to stacking hybrids, that's no worse a state of imbalance. The goal of balance is not to have classes or specs stacked to the exclusion of others.

But still you make up arguments, cherry-pick single posts by single people as if they represent everything anyone said about it, and pretend like the massive imbalance that exists and the effects we can watch happen over and over again don't happen. You are demonstrably wrong.
12/06/2017 09:00 AMPosted by Akaidian
12/06/2017 08:51 AMPosted by Faustor

Yes if the raid isnt already stacked with melee. You guys are way over-exaggerating how strict people playing vanilla will be about what classes are accepted into raids. Playing on private servers since Nost and having main both a pally and shaman at separate times


This is where your expertise falls off. You're forgetting this isn't going to be full of the ~250k private server people that signed the petition. They're going to be a drop in the bucket. Retail players will be here en-masse (the millions) and will have the same mindset they have now, which is basically what existed back in original vanilla anyways.

Go look in GD or any other popular forum, such as MMO champ. There are endless !@#$%fests about "zomg toxic community requiring unrealistic metrics to get into their groups!"

That's what you should be expecting, because that's the mindset now, and it will carry over into classic. This is why I lol at all those people who say they want toe original experience of community.

You're delusional and in for a shock. Whereas 0.1% or whatever were raiders back in the day, and therefor you might not have been subjected to the elitism that existed then, it's far "worse" now and you will be crushed playing a scrub spec.


Only delusional one here is you and its ironic you would call anyone else that. Trust me when i say, theres one reason you wont be invited to a raid, and its not your class, its your SKILL. Your toxic mentality will be a factor as well. You need to unlearn what you have learned and adapt, not whine to blizzard to change the game for you. Also lol at "scrub spec" when ench completely dominates in pvp, im looking forward to slapping you silly with my "scrub spec". Trust me when i say you dont want Blizzard to buff ench, or dont, and find out the hard way lol.
12/06/2017 09:09 AMPosted by Tarregor
12/06/2017 09:00 AMPosted by Akaidian
...

This is where your expertise falls off. You're forgetting this isn't going to be full of the ~250k private server people that signed the petition. They're going to be a drop in the bucket. Retail players will be here en-masse (the millions) and will have the same mindset they have now, which is basically what existed back in original vanilla anyways.

Go look in GD or any other popular forum, such as MMO champ. There are endless !@#$%fests about "zomg toxic community requiring unrealistic metrics to get into their groups!"

That's what you should be expecting, because that's the mindset now, and it will carry over into classic. This is why I lol at all those people who say they want toe original experience of community.

You're delusional and in for a shock. Whereas 0.1% or whatever were raiders back in the day, and therefor you might not have been subjected to the elitism that existed then, it's far "worse" now and you will be crushed playing a scrub spec.


to add to this; the consensus that the majority of players go by(the majority's opinions) is formed by the elitist minmaxers who wouldn't bring a feral druid balance druid ret paladin elem shaman or enh shaman to a raid, and would only bring a single resto druid to MC, ony, and BWL, solely for MotW and thorns


So there we have it. The problem isnt the game, its the players. The players need to unlearn what they have learned and adapt or not play at all. Blizzard shouldnt have to cater to players who cant be assed to put in the effort, especially considering your class fantasies already exist in retail. Changing something that is already working for a lot of people when you already have the option somewhere else is coming off as very entitled.

12/06/2017 09:26 AMPosted by Akaidian
12/06/2017 09:09 AMPosted by Rongente
Well no, it introduces PvP disbalance so nope.


MFW pvp imbalance in vanilla was already rampant. It didn't matter, since the forms of PvP that were actually meaningful revolved around zerg rushing, but acting like pvp was somehow a balanced masterpiece in vanilla is laughable.


Like i said in another post. Go right ahead and buff ret and ench in pve and watch them completely destroy everything even more than they currently do in pvp. No one said pvp balance was perfect, but the kind of buffs people like you suggest are completely ignorant to how bad this will mess up pvp.
12/06/2017 10:02 AMPosted by Akaidian
And I disagree with that philosophy wholeheartedly. There's no point to play a spec that can't engage in the ultimate content wow has to offer, meaning there's really no point for it to exist. Despite how long it took to get there, etc, classic is still all about the end-game.


you may disagree, but that was vanilla design philosophy. why do you think every class had almost all there abilities and then gained maybe 1 or 2 when they got talents?

12/06/2017 10:02 AMPosted by Akaidian
I've explained this before, but I'm not saying DPS of each spec needs to be equal. I'm saying the worth of all spec's entire kit needs to be equal. Whatever worth utility has, the dps needs to compensate to equal 100%. Clearly it didn't, or people wouldn't have hated on ret as much as they did. It's really that simple.


and they are. you just refuse to accept it. Paladins were taken in all but the most cutting edge guilds. my guild was in naxx. we took paladins. as dps. others have mentioned this as well.

12/06/2017 10:02 AMPosted by Akaidian
Even if you have 1 of each spec, you still stacked the better ones. That's the point.


we took the better players. not the better specs. we had 1 ret, 1 prot paladin. we had 2 shadow priests. we had a boomer and a feral. we took them because they were GOOD. and they knew how to use there full toolkit to there advantage.
12/06/2017 10:02 AMPosted by Akaidian
This is what you're not understanding from my argument. I'm not asking for this. I'm saying a pure is worth, say, 100 points, and those points come purely from DPS. A hybrid healer was worth 100 points as well, where those points came from utility + healing. A hybrid dps was worth maybe 80 points (being generous) where those points came from utiity + dmg. It needs to be worth 100 points. I don't care if that's on the utility side or DPS side, but I'm saying DPS is easier, because utility value is subjective. Realistically, you don't need LoH, DI, etc, because you shouldn't be !@#$ing up to actually need that stuff, but there are gonna be some people that demand it has a value, so whatever. Just do the damage side and be done with it,


and they were. in all but the most cutting edge guilds people took even retribution paladins. Just because you were unable to find a guild doesn't mean jack.

12/06/2017 10:02 AMPosted by Akaidian
That's an entirely false statement. There are an infinite number of possibilities that could get us there. Whether blizz is capable, will do it, etc, is irrelevant. That you can't understand the infinite possibilities to get to where hybrid dps specs are valid and welcome just like pures in such a way that you could stack 20 pures, or 20 hybrids, or any combination within, isn't my problem.

I'm not expecting absolute perfection, but I am expecting better than what it was. Or I'll just roll warrior and be the sacred child of blizzard and enjoy actively hating on any ret paladin that dares to enter my guild's raid, belittling him and putting him down for being pathetic.

What I won't do this time around is ride the struggle bus just because I like it the best from a thematic standpoint. I'll just do that on live.


and again. Hybrids were completely viable. in everything but the most cutting edge guilds. multiple people on these forums have mentioned bringing hybrid dps to their raids. multiple have said they were hybrids who raided themselves as dps.

Just because you didn't find one, and just because the top guilds deemed you not viable at the cutting edge doesn't mean other guilds weren't willing to take you.

You have never "pointed this out." You have claimed it as true, had your claim shot down, and never once came back with any evidence of Blizzard saying anything approaching "We never wanted specs to be balanced."


if blizzard wanted spec balance, why did classes start with there entire toolkits instead of most those tools being locked behind talents or spec changes?

12/06/2017 11:57 AMPosted by Fremmi
You wouldn't stack hybrids because there's literally zero need to, even for bad raids, but you frankly have no understanding of what utility and survival mechanics pures had in Vanilla.


actually i do. but you know what? battle rez. innervates. lay on hands. bubbles. cleanses, dispells, decurses. what did rogues have? vanish to reset agro? and feint. and thats about it for actual boss stuff. oh but wait. those were just threat reduction, which is great, but does me nothing to support the rest of the group.

that healer thats running low on mana? innervate. that ret thats a tick from death? lay on hands. that boomer whose about to get mauled by an add? bop.
that off tank who just died? battle rez. or the soul stone.

because despite his words, people did take hybrid dps. in all but the most cutting edge guilds. know what else the cutting edge guilds didn't take? arcane mages. sin rogues. pure affliction warlocks. etc.
12/06/2017 09:26 AMPosted by Akaidian
12/06/2017 09:09 AMPosted by Rongente
Well no, it introduces PvP disbalance so nope.


MFW pvp imbalance in vanilla was already rampant. It didn't matter, since the forms of PvP that were actually meaningful revolved around zerg rushing, but acting like pvp was somehow a balanced masterpiece in vanilla is laughable.


It wasnt - there was one outlier. lets not get it worse than that. Mkay?
if blizzard wanted spec balance, why did classes start with there entire toolkits instead of most those tools being locked behind talents or spec changes?


Because classes having access to most of their spells from the get go is completely irrelevant to class or spec balance. Beyond that, most specs had key tools locked behind talents and spec changes. Swiftmend, NS, Conflagrate, Shadowburn, Aimed Shot, Mana Tide Totem, Pyroblast, Ice Block, the list goes on and on of key class tools locked behind spec.

12/06/2017 12:20 PMPosted by Matcauthon
actually i do. but you know what? battle rez. innervates. lay on hands. bubbles. cleanses, dispells, decurses. what did rogues have? vanish to reset agro? and feint. and thats about it for actual boss stuff. oh but wait. those were just threat reduction, which is great, but does me nothing to support the rest of the group.


Rebirth - emulated by a Pure DPS class's Soulstone, or if nothing else a Hunter or Rogue with Engineering

Innervate - emulated by a mana potion, also emulated by another hybrid's ability and, if the Druid was attempting to reach viable DPS levels, as Balance or Feral, needed to be reserved for the Druid and not cast on the healers it was meant for. In contrast if the Druid wanted to tank he wasn't likely to have time to shift out to cast Innervate without kissing his mitigation goodbye.

Lay on Hands - emulated by a health potion or literally any other heal. There were Rogues bandaging people in raids at points.

Bubble - threat drop, like many others

Cleanse - another ability not restricted to hybrids

What did Rogues have? They were the kings of CC, challenged only by Mages. If you didn't have a Warrior in your group they had an armor debuff. They had spell interrupts that didn't get ignored by every stun-immune mob. Vanish, when it actually worked, gave a Rogue more survivability than a bubble and if it didn't they at least had Evasion so they could, for certain encounters, "tank" while a real tank was battle rezzed... and they didn't even need to swap gear to do it. Rogues had one of two combat drops in Vanilla WoW that weren't preceded by death, and theirs let them move after casting.

I thought you said "raids aren't the only part of Vanilla that matters?" Rogues got to be one of the strongest classes in PvP and in raid DPS, and good Rogues offered a ton of utility to their group, much of which couldn't be emulated by any hybrid. Literally the only reason Rogues had a hard time finding groups in Vanilla WoW was because there were so bloody many of them.
Faustor:
So there we have it. The problem isnt the game, its the players. The players need to unlearn what they have learned and adapt or not play at all. Blizzard shouldnt have to cater to players who cant be assed to put in the effort, especially considering your class fantasies already exist in retail. Changing something that is already working for a lot of people when you already have the option somewhere else is coming off as very entitled

oh, but the problem is also the game
a raid with mostly pure dps is gonna outperform a raid with mostly hybrid dps, even with the utilities that they bring
i would prefer that the difference be arguable, though according to the general consensus, it is not
i would also prefer that min/maxers don't bring that many hybrid dps, but still do it(not just spriests) in the first place
The problem is that hybrids have utility, it's just poorly utilized by encounter design. And changing that would actually be far harder than just tweaking some dps or tanking metrics.

If the norm rather than the exception of encounter design was to require abilities deep in the hybrid non healing trees you would see a lot more hyrbids and a lot less complaints about their balance.

But when the norm is to have encounters designed around a tank a healer and some dps killing 1 boss and any utility the encounter requires is also filled by the healer then there is a problem.
12/05/2017 05:58 PMPosted by Koushi
Shadow is already pretty great in PvP. Not every spec needs to be strong in both PvE and PvP.


Part of my point though was that Shadow was brought in PVE, but only as a "token". You only needed one, usually only brought one. Many saw having more than one as sub-optimal. Why not have a reason to bring more than one?

12/05/2017 06:01 PMPosted by Aryxymaraki
This was what they did in BC, and it was basically the best time for hybrid design in the history of the game.

As an enhancement shaman in BC, my personal damage output was rarely competing for the highest (though I remember one time when me and my brother, a ret paladin, were #1 and #2 and laughed about how terrible the rest of the DPS were that raid), but my buffs offered such significant DPS increases that people got in fights over who got to be in my group.

It was not, however, vanilla. Hybrids were designed differently in vanilla, but that's not bad. Everything was designed differently in vanilla. Vanilla design was about classes, not specs, and just because it was difficult (though not impossible) for an elemental shaman to contribute effectively to a raid dealing only damage was not an issue. The class was never designed to contribute only damage. An elemental shaman still has valuable totems and the ability to off-heal, and the intent was that they would use both of those, even in a raid environment.


I love the story from your post, "people got in fights over who got to be in my group" (lol), as it perfectly illustrates the end goal of my line of thinking.

The second part I also agree with; "the class was never designed to contribute only damage....the intent was that they would use both..." So how can they be designed to actually make use of these features? Are they already designed effectively to do so in your opinion? If much of what I've read in these forums is to be believed, then it would seem that was not the case.

12/05/2017 06:03 PMPosted by Rahn
Retail must be pretty watered down if you don't realize that in Vanilla most classes had a PvE, PvP, and Farming spec.

What is this nonsense of having three different specs in where each of those specs could do everything. Why even have specs at all?


I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're trying to say. At no point was I trying to make each spec do everything, that would be homogenization, which I am strictly against. I simply think that in the ideal game, you should be able to pick your skills (spec) and be able to stick with it throughout the whole game.

You would still have great strengths and devastating weaknesses, and you may have to rely on others for some things. But ideally you wouldn't be forced to change.

The easy/lazy/copout way of accomplishing this is homogenization, the path taken by recent expansions. So no, I'm not saying that each spec should be good at everything, simply that ideally, a spec should fulfill its intended purpose, even in an indirect or supportive role.

12/05/2017 06:53 PMPosted by Mogar
12/05/2017 06:50 PMPosted by Ashtro
Ret pally's are basically warriors without a charge/mobility now... wtf? lol
I cringe a little bit when people say something like 'ret paladin'. You're not a ret pally. You're a paladin. Yes, you put the majority of your talent points into ret, but that doesn't change your character. That's the Legion way. You respec in Legion you completely change. Specing in Vanilla is concentrating a bit more on a particular playstyle..but maintaining the core fundamentals of your class. That would necessarily have to go away in order to 'balance' each and every spec. We've been through that once already in Live. Let's not do it again in Classic.


So in classic, since Paladins are predominantly healers, I should bring a Retribution Paladin to heal? I've always thought of the specializations as "sub-classes". Yes, the core of your class stays the same, but you spec, you SPECIALIZE in a specific type of gameplay. If you spec Retribution, you are specializing in dealing damage. You wouldn't bring someone specializing in dealing damage to be a dedicated healer.

12/06/2017 07:17 AMPosted by Tarregor
12/05/2017 05:55 PMPosted by Azóth
    Elemental Focus
    Gives you a 10% chance to enter a Clearcasting state after casting any Fire, Frost, or Nature spell. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 100%

    V
    Becomes
    V

    Elemental Focus
    Gives you and nearby allies a 10% chance to enter a Clearcasting state each time you cast any Fire, Frost, or Nature Spell. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of the target's next Fire, Frost, or Nature spell by 100%


that is an interesting suggestion
it isn't deep into the elemental tree, but also, you wont be getting it much from an elemental shaman, or realistically getting it from a resto shaman

what id suggested instead is turning lightning mastery into a 3 point talent and making it the requirement for a talent placed under elemental fury; as follows:

2 point passive talent
refunds 7/15% of the mana cost of your lightning and chain lightning spells upon critically striking with them(maximum of 1 refund per cast), and causes tranquil air totem to reduce threat generation by an additional 2/5%

i have that and many more suggestions for hybrids in a pastebin's class changes sections, which I'll link if someone wants


The issue I have with your suggestion (not that it's inherently bad) is that it only increases the Shaman's solo ability as a damage dealer. It would work, yes, but it doesn't fulfill the goal of increasing their utility and making them more desirable in a raid, outside of contributing damage.

The point of my example was that the individual Shaman's DPS wouldn't be altered. However, if you have multiple Shamans with that talent, that's more chances for the clearcasting proc, which means more free spells more often. That would alleviate a (little) bit of the Shaman's mana problem, but also over the course of several minutes, add up for the mages in the group, meaning they can go longer without having to evocate. A small increase, multiplied over time to add up to something greater. That's the idea I was going for anyway.

12/06/2017 07:36 AMPosted by Sãk
As a former vanilla shadowpriest...our dps was good and we were really good at pvp (except against rogue/warr and some hunter hahaha). The only problem we had for raiding (besides the debuff limit) was the mana consumption. We werent top dps and had no AoE (perfectly fine with me) but the problem was we usually run out of mana in 2 mins without anyway to recover it besides pots and demonic rune that you had to farm in winterspring (Innervating a shadowpriest? haha not gonna happen) meanwhile locks used soul tap and mages evocation. This was corrected in BC with vampiric touch. Some little mana recovery (just enough for mandatory mana pots be sufficient) or reduced mana cost of spells would be perfect. With that change i would roll a shadowpriest again for sure and if not..ill just roll a mage xD (its unlikely ill be able to get a Choker of the Fire Lord from Rag again as a shadowpriest for a while)


I want to avoid just giving everyone a "mana recovery button" though. To me that's the beginning of homogenization. Mages and Warlocks have mana recovery buttons, it's unique to them, don't go giving mana buttons to everyone lol. Instead, I'd think of ways to increase the utility and synergy between classes. You mentioned that Druids would never use innervate on a Shadow Priest. Your'e right, so why is that? What could we do to make innervate a more interesting ability, that you could consider using it on classes that don't have their own mana recovery buttons?

You're mistaken. "Increase DPS" isn't the bottom-line, it's just that flat number increases are the only way to reconcile "rebuild parts of the class" with "don't change anything ever if even one pixel is wrong I'm playing on private servers." If you aren't allowed to change a class's playstyle, at all, there's not much you can do beyond buffs/nerfs to numbers.

Upping DPS is just the easy way to do what you're trying to do. Most pro-change people are OK with other solutions, but want to keep the solutions from changing things that will set off the purists.


I tried to keep my ideas/examples minimal with the express intention of not changing playstyle at all. I agree that playstyle should not be altered. The question I see is; how can we bake a classe's utility directly into their playstyle?

In my examples, the Shadow Priest would still play pretty much exactly the same way, but now they'd provide the group healing that they couldn't before. The Shamans would still do their DPS rotations, but now they'd also passively buff their allies by doing so.

Posted by Espure
They tried to do that with live though, and we saw how that turned out.

No they didn't. Retail didn't go the way of "strengthening the unique aspects of classes to make them more attractive," they did the exact opposite and removed unique aspects specifically to remove any reason to bring one class over another.


I completely agree with this statement. Retail took the features that were unique to each class and gave them to everybody. Now everyone has a heal button, everyone has a mana button, everyone has a mobility button.

12/06/2017 08:27 AMPosted by Akaidian
If boomkins and cats auras were made raid wide and increased to 5% they are all of a sudden w lot more worthwhile instead of 5 people getting 3%, 40 people get 5%.

On thing to note about this method is it still doesn't solve what I call the "token" problem. I'd much prefer you reduce the number, or leave it at 3%, and make the aura per character and stackable, so you don't just get your one cat/boom/ret whatever and say "k, now we've checked that box, lets move on."


A man after me own heart, I had basically the same idea: make the Moonkin Aura stackable. I will also henceforth refer to bringing an individual of a class to provide a single buff as "the token problem". The token problem is precisely the issue I was struggling with in the OP.

12/06/2017 09:09 AMPosted by Rongente
Well no, it introduces PvP disbalance so nope.


May I ask for a bit of elaboration? Which part of my examples would create a massive disturbance in pvp balance? I tried to think of as minimal of a change as possible that would only effect instances involving large numbers of players, in other words, in a raid setting. If you are referring to AV, the only BG where player numbers could potentially get high enough to make a difference, then you may have a point. I hadn't considered AV when making this post. Please let me know your thoughts.

12/06/2017 01:42 PMPosted by Ziryus
The problem is that hybrids have utility, it's just poorly utilized by encounter design. And changing that would actually be far harder than just tweaking some dps or tanking metrics.

If the norm rather than the exception of encounter design was to require abilities deep in the hybrid non healing trees you would see a lot more hyrbids and a lot less complaints about their balance.

But when the norm is to have encounters designed around a tank a healer and some dps killing 1 boss and any utility the encounter requires is also filled by the healer then there is a problem.


That is a very good point. I had not considered this perspective before, so thank you for bringing this up. Indeed, going and redesigning every encounter to more adequately utilize the various utilities offered by each class and spec would be quite an undertaking.

I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts, criticisms, and discussions so far. Looking forwards to reading more!
Azóth:
Tarregor:
that is an interesting suggestion
it isn't deep into the elemental tree, but also, you wont be getting it much from an elemental shaman, or realistically getting it from a resto shaman

what id suggested instead is turning lightning mastery into a 3 point talent and making it the requirement for a talent placed under elemental fury; as follows:

2 point passive talent
refunds 7/15% of the mana cost of your lightning and chain lightning spells upon critically striking with them(maximum of 1 refund per cast), and causes tranquil air totem to reduce threat generation by an additional 2/5%

i have that and many more suggestions for hybrids in a pastebin's class changes sections, which I'll link if someone wants


The issue I have with your suggestion (not that it's inherently bad) is that it only increases the Shaman's solo ability as a damage dealer. It would work, yes, but it doesn't fulfill the goal of increasing their utility and making them more desirable in a raid, outside of contributing damage.

well, making them go oom a bit slower doesn't quite increase their personal dps; it just increases their uptime for long fights
furthermore, it does more than increase the shaman's solo ability as a damage dealer, since tranquil air totem also reduces the threat that is generated by your party members... so it increases the capability of everyone in that group to deal damage without pulling aggro, including the elemental shaman, but only when threat is an issue
Right, I should clarify that I lump increased uptime in with increased DPS. That was part of the function behind my idea was well: make them go oom slower. Anyway, I didn't word my response correctly, so I apologize for that.

My example though would also benefit the group, not just the Shaman, and could be greater utilized if there was more than one Shaman, encouraging bringing multiple Elemental Shamans to raids and cross-class synergy. And really, both ideas could probably co-exist quite nicely I think.

Also, for some reason, I was thinking that Tranquil Air totem would only affect the caster. Obviously that's not the case and the change you mentioned would indeed be useful utility, I like it.

I love the story from your post, "people got in fights over who got to be in my group" (lol), as it perfectly illustrates the end goal of my line of thinking.

The second part I also agree with; "the class was never designed to contribute only damage....the intent was that they would use both..." So how can they be designed to actually make use of these features? Are they already designed effectively to do so in your opinion? If much of what I've read in these forums is to be believed, then it would seem that was not the case.


My experience in vanilla was that, yes, good hybrids would always use their entire kit, except when being lazy on farm content.

As a resto shaman, I still contributed melee damage to the group; weapon swap didn't incur a GCD, so it was just 'swap to 2hander and melee away, swap back to caster weapon when spellcasting'. As an enhancement or elemental shaman, I still healed when it was necessary. As any spec of shaman, I used totems to buff my allies. (No matter what spec of shaman you are, if you're not dropping Poison Cleansing Totem on fights that have an AoE poison attack, you're doing it wrong.)

Perhaps the reason that all of these people think DPS hybrids are bad is because they want to solely DPS and never use any ability that doesn't do damage. If you never use any ability that doesn't deal damage, or if you rank characters solely by their place on the damage meters, then yes, these specs look bad. Because they're more than that. That's why we all have the same basic skills shared.
12/05/2017 06:16 PMPosted by Chunlí
12/05/2017 06:10 PMPosted by Mogar
You're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
All poll and private server data to the contrary apparently.


You mean the data that was tampered with?
Try-hards are always going to try hard, but for a majority of the playerbase taking a "useless" hybrid is NOT going to be the difference between a kill and a wipe.
12/06/2017 09:26 AMPosted by Akaidian
MFW pvp imbalance in vanilla was already rampant. It didn't matter, since the forms of PvP that were actually meaningful revolved around zerg rushing, but acting like pvp was somehow a balanced masterpiece in vanilla is laughable.


I rarely zerged in AB/WSG. It's a strategy I really didn't like because it was slow. Zerging is the lowest and slowest form of pubstomping and also can get you outplayed at higher level competition.

Zerg in AB, and if you're lucky, you win a very slow 2-1.5 nodes game with 1 or 2 nodes constantly in contention. Or you lose 1-4 or 0-5 because you lose all your GYs. Opponents zerging made it pretty easy to sweep up nodes and GYs in AB.

In WSG it was just slow, you zerg with your FC, your FC zerg goes chasing their FC, someone else picks up the flag, rinse, repeat, takes 15 minutes to cap because you're not ready to cap when the flag is returned. I had a bizarre experience in a lower bracket where I ended up with a group of twinks that leveled into the bracket. They absolutely refused to retrieve the flag or support me at all until I dropped it so they could do their zerg thing with their preferred FC in the middle of their zerg. So that ended up being 30 minutes of me running around with the flag solo with no support. Eventually the core group leveled out of the bracket because I kept ruining their fun, but some stuck around and learned to not zerg.

I can't tell if you had any experience running organized PvP or if you were just one of the groups that could only organize a zerg rush, which was better than everyone running around by themselves getting solo HKs. But high level play, either pubstomping or against other premades involved more than zerging. Zerging was usually the most organization solo pub randos could achieve.
12/06/2017 01:09 PMPosted by Fremmi
if blizzard wanted spec balance, why did classes start with there entire toolkits instead of most those tools being locked behind talents or spec changes?


Because classes having access to most of their spells from the get go is completely irrelevant to class or spec balance. Beyond that, most specs had key tools locked behind talents and spec changes. Swiftmend, NS, Conflagrate, Shadowburn, Aimed Shot, Mana Tide Totem, Pyroblast, Ice Block, the list goes on and on of key class tools locked behind spec.

12/06/2017 12:20 PMPosted by Matcauthon
actually i do. but you know what? battle rez. innervates. lay on hands. bubbles. cleanses, dispells, decurses. what did rogues have? vanish to reset agro? and feint. and thats about it for actual boss stuff. oh but wait. those were just threat reduction, which is great, but does me nothing to support the rest of the group.


Rebirth - emulated by a Pure DPS class's Soulstone, or if nothing else a Hunter or Rogue with Engineering

Innervate - emulated by a mana potion, also emulated by another hybrid's ability and, if the Druid was attempting to reach viable DPS levels, as Balance or Feral, needed to be reserved for the Druid and not cast on the healers it was meant for. In contrast if the Druid wanted to tank he wasn't likely to have time to shift out to cast Innervate without kissing his mitigation goodbye.

Lay on Hands - emulated by a health potion or literally any other heal. There were Rogues bandaging people in raids at points.

Bubble - threat drop, like many others

Cleanse - another ability not restricted to hybrids

What did Rogues have? They were the kings of CC, challenged only by Mages. If you didn't have a Warrior in your group they had an armor debuff. They had spell interrupts that didn't get ignored by every stun-immune mob. Vanish, when it actually worked, gave a Rogue more survivability than a bubble and if it didn't they at least had Evasion so they could, for certain encounters, "tank" while a real tank was battle rezzed... and they didn't even need to swap gear to do it. Rogues had one of two combat drops in Vanilla WoW that weren't preceded by death, and theirs let them move after casting.

I thought you said "raids aren't the only part of Vanilla that matters?" Rogues got to be one of the strongest classes in PvP and in raid DPS, and good Rogues offered a ton of utility to their group, much of which couldn't be emulated by any hybrid. Literally the only reason Rogues had a hard time finding groups in Vanilla WoW was because there were so bloody many of them.


A soulstones has to be cast preemptively and was inferior to battle rez.

As for rogue and hunter with engineering - it had a 50% success rate.

Innervate emulates a mana potion? Correct. But it can be used in addition to one.

Lay on hands was better then a health stone or potion. Bandaids take time, they ain't going to do me much good if I'm going to die next hit.

Bubble and bop could also be used to keep you/Someone else alive on top of the threat drop, and bop can be casted on anyone.

Rogues and cc. Yep we could lock down a caster. How often did that actually apply in a raid? Evasion tanking. If your guild reached the levels of a rogue evasion taking you were already wiping.

Yes there was mych more to vanilla then just pve. However this thread is clearly talking about pve. Thus i was talking pve perspective.

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