A Different method for Hybrids

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And you guys complaining about only having a token hybrid dps for the buff.

Yet if we brought more then one, you start forcing us into a situation where pures get inferior number of raid slots. You go from where most raids brought more or less 5 of each class to a point where they would be bringing 20 or less combined dps warrior, rogues, mages, hunter, and lock. And around only 12 to 13 on fights like 4 horseman or fights that are healing intensive. How is that even remotely fair?
12/05/2017 05:55 PMPosted by Azóth

The counter argument I see made is that hybrids bring valuable utility.


Not a bad idea, really.

So, for the sake of argument, what utility would you give Retribution that would be enough incentive as a raid slot?
12/06/2017 08:25 PMPosted by Rámzá
12/05/2017 05:55 PMPosted by Azóth

The counter argument I see made is that hybrids bring valuable utility.


Not a bad idea, really.

So, for the sake of argument, what utility would you give Retribution that would be enough incentive as a raid slot?


Rets already raided. Many guilds had them. You just wouldn't see them in top world first type guilds or those with stupid raid leads
12/06/2017 08:25 PMPosted by Rámzá
12/05/2017 05:55 PMPosted by Azóth

The counter argument I see made is that hybrids bring valuable utility.


Not a bad idea, really.

So, for the sake of argument, what utility would you give Retribution that would be enough incentive as a raid slot?

vindication is placed next to vengeance, vengeance is reduced to 3 points with the 5 point effect at 3 points, vindication is reduced to 2 points, vindication lasts for 12 reduces dodge chance by 1/2%, proc chance is low enough that it takes 2 retadins to reliably keep it up
i got that and a whole lotta other stuff, including a comparable enh shaman change, in a lengthy pastebin; ill link it if ya want, but I'm sleeping soon
12/06/2017 08:29 PMPosted by Matcauthon
12/06/2017 08:25 PMPosted by Rámzá
...

Not a bad idea, really.

So, for the sake of argument, what utility would you give Retribution that would be enough incentive as a raid slot?


Rets already raided. Many guilds had them. You just wouldn't see them in top world first type guilds or those with stupid raid leads


I believe you. And to be honest, I'm really not advocating for changes (even though they gut Paladin abilities pre launch)

I just like brainstorming. After all, the Retribution tree is kinda sparse in utility. There's repentance for CC, improved ret and sanctity, and Vindication.
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Not a bad idea, really.

So, for the sake of argument, what utility would you give Retribution that would be enough incentive as a raid slot?


Rets already raided. Many guilds had them. You just wouldn't see them in top world first type guilds or those with stupid raid leads

well all hybrid dps specs should, in my opinion, reasonably be able to get into a spot into the top guilds' progression runs
it doesn't have to be at the point where they effectively do as much dps as fury warriors; it could instead be a shadow priest situation for some of em, and that'd be okay

a raid could have 5 warlocks, 6 mages, 1 spriest, 6 rogues, 5 fury warriors, and 2 hunters as their only dps if they're pretty heavy on healers and it isn't 4 horsemen

they could easily, were it viable, swap 2 rogues and 2 fury warriors for 2 feral druids and 2 enh shamans/ret paladins, and they could easily, were it viable, swap 2 mages for a moonkin and elem shaman, or even for just 2 moonkins

don't be concerned about mages, rogues, and fury warriors not getting enough raid slots
12/06/2017 08:39 PMPosted by Tarregor
12/06/2017 08:29 PMPosted by Matcauthon
...

Rets already raided. Many guilds had them. You just wouldn't see them in top world first type guilds or those with stupid raid leads

well all hybrid dps specs should reasonably be able to get into a spot into the A team top guilds' progression runs
it doesn't have to be at the point where they effectively do as much dps as fury warriors; it could instead be a shadow priest situation for some of em, and that'd be okay


I mean in that case I guess live needs to be completely rebalanced. Tone down those multidotters.
A hybrid DPS should never outpace a pure. That's totally fine with me. I just want to ensure I have a spot in the raid. That means respectable DPS and utility.

I've been messing around with the Vanilla calculator. Some builds could (theoretically) do offtanking, others are great for offhealing.

Might post them and see what the best ones are
12/06/2017 08:56 PMPosted by Rámzá
A hybrid DPS should never outpace a pure. That's totally fine with me. I just want to ensure I have a spot in the raid. That means respectable DPS and utility.

I've been messing around with the Vanilla calculator. Some builds could (theoretically) do offtanking, others are great for offhealing.

Might post them and see what the best ones are


Your dps, at least until naxx might not be great, but you'll bring great utility with blessings, auras, blessing of protection, lay on hands. Periodic off heals, a threat drop, and cleanse
12/06/2017 08:39 PMPosted by Tarregor
...

Rets already raided. Many guilds had them. You just wouldn't see them in top world first type guilds or those with stupid raid leads

well all hybrid dps specs should, in my opinion, reasonably be able to get into a spot into the top guilds' progression runs
it doesn't have to be at the point where they effectively do as much dps as fury warriors; it could instead be a shadow priest situation for some of em, and that'd be okay

a raid could have 5 warlocks, 6 mages, 1 spriest, 6 rogues, 5 fury warriors, and 2 hunters as their only dps if they're pretty heavy on healers and it isn't 4 horsemen

they could easily, were it viable, swap 2 rogues and 2 fury warriors for 2 feral druids and 2 enh shamans/ret paladins, and they could easily, were it viable, swap 2 mages for a moonkin and elem shaman, or even for just 2 moonkins

don't be concerned about mages, rogues, and fury warriors not getting enough raid slots


lol....The only thing Shamans are going to do in any raid is be Mana Tide Hoes to be swapped in and out of the Priest group when they needed to be.

Ret, ride the pine or put your healing set on son....
12/06/2017 09:00 PMPosted by Matcauthon
12/06/2017 08:56 PMPosted by Rámzá
A hybrid DPS should never outpace a pure. That's totally fine with me. I just want to ensure I have a spot in the raid. That means respectable DPS and utility.

I've been messing around with the Vanilla calculator. Some builds could (theoretically) do offtanking, others are great for offhealing.

Might post them and see what the best ones are


Your dps, at least until naxx might not be great, but you'll bring great utility with blessings, auras, blessing of protection, lay on hands. Periodic off heals, a threat drop, and cleanse


Yes, that's all well established. But some would argue that Holy paladins bring all of that sans the DPS.

Sanctity Aura, Vindication, Improved Ret Aura (only useful for tanks) and Repentance are currently what we bring to the table.
12/06/2017 09:05 PMPosted by Rámzá
12/06/2017 09:00 PMPosted by Matcauthon
...

Your dps, at least until naxx might not be great, but you'll bring great utility with blessings, auras, blessing of protection, lay on hands. Periodic off heals, a threat drop, and cleanse


Yes, that's all well established. But some would argue that Holy paladins bring all of that sans the DPS.

Sanctity Aura, Vindication, Improved Ret Aura (only useful for tanks) and Repentance are currently what we bring to the table.


Abilities don't have to be spec-exclusive to be useful. A ret's LoH is every bit as useful as one from a holy paladin, same with a BoP, cleanse, aura, etc.. OTOH, which is better to have using gcds keeping wisdom judged so the casters can go longer, a healer (wasting gcds and mana) or a ret?
12/06/2017 09:14 PMPosted by Ellilaine
12/06/2017 09:05 PMPosted by Rámzá
...

Yes, that's all well established. But some would argue that Holy paladins bring all of that sans the DPS.

Sanctity Aura, Vindication, Improved Ret Aura (only useful for tanks) and Repentance are currently what we bring to the table.


Abilities don't have to be spec-exclusive to be useful. A ret's LoH is every bit as useful as one from a holy paladin, same with a BoP, cleanse, aura, etc.. OTOH, which is better to have using gcds keeping wisdom judged so the casters can go longer, a healer (wasting gcds and mana) or a ret?


That's true. Holy paladins rarely get into melee range. It's an unnecessary risk, their mobility is terrible, and they can't heal while moving.
12/06/2017 09:21 PMPosted by Rámzá
12/06/2017 09:14 PMPosted by Ellilaine
...

Abilities don't have to be spec-exclusive to be useful. A ret's LoH is every bit as useful as one from a holy paladin, same with a BoP, cleanse, aura, etc.. OTOH, which is better to have using gcds keeping wisdom judged so the casters can go longer, a healer (wasting gcds and mana) or a ret?


That's true. Holy paladins rarely get into melee range. It's an unnecessary risk, their mobility is terrible, and they can't heal while moving.
and most are wearing hodge podge gear that includes cloth.
12/06/2017 09:24 PMPosted by Matcauthon
12/06/2017 09:21 PMPosted by Rámzá
...

That's true. Holy paladins rarely get into melee range. It's an unnecessary risk, their mobility is terrible, and they can't heal while moving.
and most are wearing hodge podge gear that includes cloth.


YES! That's one of the biggest reasons I won't play Holy. I don't mind healing, but I don't do robes.

I'm not a priest. I'm a paladin!
12/06/2017 08:31 PMPosted by Tarregor
12/06/2017 08:25 PMPosted by Rámzá
...

Not a bad idea, really.

So, for the sake of argument, what utility would you give Retribution that would be enough incentive as a raid slot?

vindication is placed next to vengeance, vengeance is reduced to 3 points with the 5 point effect at 3 points, vindication is reduced to 2 points, vindication lasts for 12 reduces dodge chance by 1/2%, proc chance is low enough that it takes 2 retadins to reliably keep it up
i got that and a whole lotta other stuff, including a comparable enh shaman change, in a lengthy pastebin; ill link it if ya want, but I'm sleeping soon


I feel like I want to see more of these ideas of yours lol.

I wasn't sure what to come up with for Retribution. What I did come up with, I'm very on the fence about myself. I feel like it may not only stray too far from the theme of Retribution, but also may be dangerously close to the path towards homogenization.

Anyway I'll get on with it. So first I'll assume we use your idea for the talents where Vindication and Vengeance are now penultimate-tier Retribution talents. Then on one of these talents (I'm going to lump this into Vindication), have some effect along the lines of "Your spell, ability, and melee critical strikes return mana to nearby allies equal to X/X% damage dealt".

Vindication would now look something like:
    Vindication
    Rank 0/2
    Requires 25 points in Retribution
    Gives your melee attacks a chance to reduce the targets chance to dodge by 1/2% for 12 sec. Your spell, ability, and melee critical strikes return mana to nearby allies equal to X/X% damage dealt.


I know, I'm contradicting myself here. Didn't I just say a few posts ago not to give everyone mana buttons? Like I said, I'm not super crazy about this idea. But I kinda have a thought process around it that I hope isn't completely stupid so I may as well finish it.

So of course, the more damage your Retadin deals, and the more Retadins you have with you, the better your raid's mana upkeep.

Now say you also give Balance Druids 5% spell crit on Moonkin Aura, and allow it to stack. Bring 3 Balance Druids for 15% increased crit chance, bring 2-3 Retadins to keep up the debuff and mana-regen from Vindication, Retadin mana batteries improve upkeep for healers and Moonkins. Viola, inter-class synergy.
Also, if you are running a fairly balanced comp, class-wise, you really don't need that many healers (4-5 each priest, druid, and paladin healing is overkill on just about every fight).
12/05/2017 06:36 PMPosted by Xerash
It’s not about being unfair. It’s about allowing for greater variety and flavour, by pushing the unique aspects of less desirable specs up a notch in order to refrain from having to shelf them in either pvp, pvp and sometimes both.

Try not to confuse this with homogenization, and ‘everybody wins’ sentiments. If a spec is undesirable to the point where it is essentially unable to see use in an element of gameplay, then that’s poor design — it’s wasteful. Allow each spec to be viable in their own unique way to the point where they are not severely falling behind other specs.

It’s called asymmetric balancing.


I appreciate the honest sentiment of this post, but unfortunately this is not what happens in reality. One change turns into many, and following that will be entitled brats (who are already invading this forum) who'll say, "You made a similar change when you did X, why not do this too?"

This is how it all begins. That's how it was with SC Remastered. The safest thing to do is change nothing because the slope is immeasurably slippery, and nigh impossible to recover from once started down.

Unless they were 100% transparent with their thoughts, plans and actions every step of the way and were extremely communicative, taking care on a razor's edge level, it is a bad idea. I respect what you are asking for, but it is dangerous. Possible, but very, very dangerous.
12/06/2017 07:53 PMPosted by Matcauthon
pures get inferior number of raid slots


Pures already get "inferior number" of raid slots because vanilla is poorly balanced. That's why hunters and warlocks are heavily underrepresented in raids while warriors (a hybrid), rogues, and mages are heavily over-represented. Note that the one hybrid isn't over-represented because of its "utility," which faces sharp diminishing returns like all hybrid "utility," but because its DPS is significantly higher than it ought to be.
12/07/2017 08:33 AMPosted by Fremmi
12/06/2017 07:53 PMPosted by Matcauthon
pures get inferior number of raid slots


Pures already get "inferior number" of raid slots because vanilla is poorly balanced. That's why hunters and warlocks are heavily underrepresented in raids while warriors (a hybrid), rogues, and mages are heavily over-represented. Note that the one hybrid isn't over-represented because of its "utility," which faces sharp diminishing returns like all hybrid "utility," but because its DPS is significantly higher than it ought to be.


when you looked at your average guild, most ran with about 5 of every class. of course you had some of the guilds just barely putting together rosters that just grabbed whatever, or you had the world first types who ran with whatever they thought best, but even those, we saw relatively balanced numbers of classes.

i think the world first sapphiron had something like 4-6 for every class with a few outliars like mages who more were brought for decursing and on the flip side they dropped down to like 3 locks and hunters.

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