And this is why we don't want balance changes

Classic Discussion
12/05/2017 08:27 AMPosted by Blázè
wrong. YOU dont want class changes.
you and a handful of loud purists that keep spaming this forum.

i would love to see blizzard polish up some of the classes that clearly suffered due to the undeniably smug community.


We keep spamming the forums? We just want to play Vanilla. You know, the game we asked for.

Very ironic of you to call us spammers when you have been doing exactly that.
12/05/2017 08:27 AMPosted by Blázè
i would love to see blizzard polish up some of the classes that clearly suffered due to the undeniably smug community.


Lmao the only classes that suffered did so due to the bad players playing them. Every class is viable. Yes, I will take your ret pally in my raid, even if you dont understand why hes useful while you keep crying for dps buffs.
12/05/2017 06:26 AMPosted by Matcauthon
Because despite saying you merely want hybrids to be "Viable" you have people like this guy
12/05/2017 05:17 AMPosted by Cq
My personal experience would not have been ruined in any way by class balancing — it would have only given me more options, allowed me to experience more of the content, and allowed me to realise the class fantasies as Blizzard had originally intended. In short, class balancing would have only made the game more enjoyable.

The only reasons I can think of for anyone to object to class balancing are these:
  • Those playing Protection Warriors don't want Protection Paladins to be viable
    • so they can keep all of the tanking drops from raids to themselves
  • Those playing Pure DPS (and Warriors) don't want Hybrid DPS to be on par (or even close) because
    • it would remove the unfair advantage Pure DPS have enjoyed for 13 years
      • Pure DPS epeens would go limp
    • Hybrid DPS wouldn't be free and easy HKs in PvP any more
      • Pure DPS epeens would go limp
    • Pure DPS would no longer have a monopoly on the top positions of DPS charts at the end of raids
      • Pure DPS epeens would go limp
    • the 'superior skills' that Pure DPS have convinced themselves they have possessed for the last 13 years would be proven to not exist
      • Pure DPS epeens would go limp

So, Prot Warriors want more loot and Pure DPS (and Warriors) want to keep stroking their epeens. I think the objections to class balancing boil down to nothing more than that.
who ADMITS that he wants Hybrids to be CLOSE to Pure dps in damage done, so close in fact, that they can beat pures in damage done.
1) Thanks for starting a new thread and quoting what I wrote. I don't have an active sub so I wouldn't have been able to do that myself. :)

2) Thanks for giving my opinion far more attention and exposure than it would have gotten had you just left it in the thread where I posted it. Much appreciated. :)

3) For you to have gone to such lengths, it's clear I must have touched a nerve. That convinces me that my assessment is pretty spot-on. Touching a raw nerve — getting too close to the truth — always prompts the guilty into doing something rash.

4) You quote one thing that I wrote and then claim I said something completely and utterly different. Please quote the comment where I say that I want 'hybrids to beat pures in damage done'. Go right ahead... I'm waiting... Oh yes, that's right, you can't — because I never said such a thing. Matcauthon, you are now a PROVEN LIAR.

If you don't need to seek medical assistance as a result of your epeen imploding publicly, can you do me a favour and create some new threads quoting a few of my other posts? Some of them are pure gold. Cheers mate. ;^)
The game could have perfectly and easily progressed if it was Warrior, Priest, Mage and Rogue and there is no getting around that whatsoever.

My Blessing of Kings and a druids Mark were all fine and dandy but I've been down that road in vanilla "Sorry we need a real healer/tank." and thats all the stuff everyone forgets about.
I don't want balance. I just want to see some specs buffed.

There's a lot of little buffs they could do for specs better without increasing their burst.

Balance increasing Moonglow from 3% to X%. Feral maybe buff improved shred or leader of the pack to 5%. Feral tanks problem was the lack of defense on items, could be solved by adding defense to a talent like how warriors get Anticipation, or putting defense on more leather items.

Shamans buff Convection by X% to help with their mana problems, Enhance idk.

Prot Pally is the hard one. The only real way to buff Prot is to give them a taunt. Ret could have Two-Handed Weapon Specialization buff to help their sustained dps.
12/05/2017 01:56 PMPosted by Anitharia
12/05/2017 08:27 AMPosted by Blázè
wrong. YOU dont want class changes.
you and a handful of loud purists that keep spaming this forum.

i would love to see blizzard polish up some of the classes that clearly suffered due to the undeniably smug community.


We keep spamming the forums? We just want to play Vanilla. You know, the game we asked for.

Very ironic of you to call us spammers when you have been doing exactly that.


You’re on every thread created berating people for their opinion. Yes, you’re on here spamming too.
The whole point of this is to point something out.

The people asking for buffs to hybrids sit there and say stuff like "viable" and "numbers changes only, don't need to add anything to the game".
Well on another thread there is a person asking for gear to be added for feral tanking, for abilities go be added that didn't exist, and here we have a class balance fan who doesn't just want viable. He wants to beat pures.

You sit here and act like you just want viable and small number increases.

But you don't even agree on that front. Some just want viable. Others want gear added to the game. Others still want to be competitive.

You can't even agree with each other on this and you get mad at us because we don't want it?

If we say "hybrids doing 75% of a pures dps is fine", those who want gear added to the game will only get louder. And so will those like cq, and ankaidan who want paladins to be jack of all trades master of all.
12/05/2017 08:27 PMPosted by Cq
Because despite saying you merely want hybrids to be "Viable" you have people like this guy
<span class="truncated">...</span>who ADMITS that he wants Hybrids to be CLOSE to Pure dps in damage done, so close in fact, that they can beat pures in damage done.
1) Thanks for starting a new thread and quoting what I wrote. I don't have an active sub so I wouldn't have been able to do that myself. :)

2) Thanks for giving my opinion far more attention and exposure than it would have gotten had you just left it in the thread where I posted it. Much appreciated. :)

3) For you to have gone to such lengths, it's clear I must have touched a nerve. That convinces me that my assessment is pretty spot-on. Touching a raw nerve — getting too close to the truth — always prompts the guilty into doing something rash.

4) You quote one thing that I wrote and then claim I said something completely and utterly different. Please quote the comment where I say that I want 'hybrids to beat pures in damage done'. Go right ahead... I'm waiting... Oh yes, that's right, you can't — because I never said such a thing. Matcauthon, you are now a PROVEN LIAR.

If you don't need to seek medical assistance as a result of your epeen imploding publicly, can you do me a favour and create some new threads quoting a few of my other posts? Some of them are pure gold. Cheers mate. ;^)


What about the part where you said "pures eould no longer have a monopoly on the top of the dps meters"
That implies that hybrids would be competing with some and beating others.
This implies that the balance changes you want would include making hybrids competitive. Not just viable.

You say viable but then turn around and talk about hybrids putting up competitive numbers to pures. Viable and competitive are two very different things. You seem to want competitive. By your own remarks.
So tell me how that makes me a liar?
12/05/2017 01:01 PMPosted by Tarregor
12/05/2017 12:21 PMPosted by Ellilaine
...

Well, all of those numbers are way out of whack for even Naxx geared players in vanilla so how seriously can you take it?

sheesh, they killed lucifron in 13 seconds
and look at all of those buffs they had... and they were in AQ40/naxx gear too
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=67439&Fight=0


You know I just don't want the classic server looking like that right when it opens. I know the guys who have been living on pservers do this crap because it's their biggest challege but once the Blizzard server goes live there will be other people to think about. In two years if super speed runs are the thing again I'm cool but not right away.
This is the biggest argument for opening content in patches or in a staggered fashion or something to throttle player power.
12/05/2017 08:27 AMPosted by Blázè
wrong. YOU dont want class changes.
you and a handful of loud purists that keep spaming this forum.

i would love to see blizzard polish up some of the classes that clearly suffered due to the undeniably smug community.
No
12/05/2017 12:22 PMPosted by Adgaraan
Its a trend not an outlier. It is a well established fact that rogues and warriors are top damage not close pretty much all vanilla. Is it too much to ask that others are buffed just a tiny bit to at least be considered instead of half of the raid being warriors/rogues?


Would need retuning in PvE and PvP so nope.
12/05/2017 08:27 PMPosted by Cq
Because despite saying you merely want hybrids to be "Viable" you have people like this guy
<span class="truncated">...</span>who ADMITS that he wants Hybrids to be CLOSE to Pure dps in damage done, so close in fact, that they can beat pures in damage done.
1) Thanks for starting a new thread and quoting what I wrote. I don't have an active sub so I wouldn't have been able to do that myself. :)

2) Thanks for giving my opinion far more attention and exposure than it would have gotten had you just left it in the thread where I posted it. Much appreciated. :)

3) For you to have gone to such lengths, it's clear I must have touched a nerve. That convinces me that my assessment is pretty spot-on. Touching a raw nerve — getting too close to the truth — always prompts the guilty into doing something rash.

4) You quote one thing that I wrote and then claim I said something completely and utterly different. Please quote the comment where I say that I want 'hybrids to beat pures in damage done'. Go right ahead... I'm waiting... Oh yes, that's right, you can't — because I never said such a thing. Matcauthon, you are now a PROVEN LIAR.

If you don't need to seek medical assistance as a result of your epeen imploding publicly, can you do me a favour and create some new threads quoting a few of my other posts? Some of them are pure gold. Cheers mate. ;^)


You can't change fundamental things like class design,create a whole bunch of items for hybrids and have it still be vanilla. Just because your vision of what your spec doesn't mesh with what the devs put in 12 years ago doesn't mean you should be asking for drastic game changers.

There is always the option of just not playing if it doesn't work for you.If you want to play vanilla then play it the way it's been designed.
12/05/2017 06:26 AMPosted by Matcauthon
who ADMITS that he wants Hybrids to be CLOSE to Pure dps in damage done, so close in fact, that they can beat pures in damage done.

DESPITE all the utility they bring.

You Claim you want viability. but those amongst you clearly want more then that. If Hybrids were competing with pures in damage done, and had all the utility they have on top of it, there would be ZERO reason to bring anything beyond a mage for AI, a Warlock for Curses, and stock your raid with hybrids who have better survival and better utility.
and the irony is, in one of his statements, he thinks hybrids are a free kill in PVP.

thats funny.


Yeah I've pointed this out a few times because people I guess have not grasped the basic concept of how class design differs in Vanilla vs the current game. Or from games around early 2000 as far as class design.

Or the fact that things like power budgets are important to enforce. Which means the more a class is capable of doing, the less effective it should be at doing those things. Jack of All Trades, Master of None sort of ordeal.

As opposed to a pure who is literally only capable of doing that one thing. If you can only do one function but you're beat by a hybrid, why bring you? You offer less net positive to the group and the only justifiable reason for taking you over them is personality related. If druids were capable of just being either the best or very close to best at every role, something that has happened a few times already in WoW post Wrath, why bring any other class?

A pure being able to be beaten by a hybrid capable of doing so much more utility is about as pathetic as people who spends every waking day for seven seasons playing League of Legends only to still be sitting in Silver and not even be good at the game period. (second bit added because inb4 someone "WELL WHAT IF THEY DON'T LIKE RANKED?!")

The biggest reason rogues do more damage than the other pures is because the rogue is the only pure melee and isn't able to target swap as effectively (you lose combo points if you switch targets) while also having no aoe. The entire power budget for rogues is doing disgustingly large amounts of just raw damage both steadily or in a burst. Literally every single chip is in the bucket for "Single Target Damage", nothing else except the rare moments where we evasion tank bosses for a little bit for whatever reason. Only to be one shot through evasion on the 20% chance of getting hit, or when it fades.

Even worse is these spergs saying ferals suck don't know anything. If you abuse the game mechanics hard enough as a feral and have high enough apm+skill you can actually compete with rogues and warriors in MC and BWL. Well, maybe not warriors in BWL. The only issue is it requires an absurd amount of consumables and a lot of extra work each week in your raid prep to pull the kind of numbers. Which honestly, I'm content with losing in that regard because the guy is putting in 6x the effort I am every fight just to pull the same numbers. I do three buttons and pool energy properly. This guy is dumping energy, powershifting, dumping energy, powershifting, using mana consumables to powershift even harder, using niche items just to make his powershifting that much better, running lowbie dungeons for niche weapons because of how feral auto attacks work. Yeah, that guy deserves it for having to be that on point to pull damage doing all that stuff. He doesn't just shift into cat and play like a pretend rogue. He's playing something closer to Starcraft.

The guy Sodapoppin got his information on ferals in Vanilla from regarding WHH and MCP is in my guild on Elysium and that guy was a sick feral druid that was keeping up with our rogues in MC. Even when we played a TBC server he was capable of pulling top 3 damage on Gruul. The closest Patchwerk fight and one that HATES melee. So yeah, sick damage as a feral is definitely doable, just a lot more effort than most people are going to be willing to put in.

As for tanks, feral druids are our tank of choice for specific fights because of their outrageous ability to just dish out tons of snap threat when it's necessary. On Vael we use a Feral because they're so good when properly played that our damage dealers can just go all out with the debuff from boss giving us infinite energy, mana, and rage. Try as hard as I can, can't do it. Our warriors spamming execute for 80% of the fight with 100 rage each time can't even pull off him.

So yeah, advisably people do a little bit more research before deeming classes weak outright. The only things that are 200% garbage are: Ret Paladin, Enhancement Shaman, Boomkin (pending, one might surprise us in the next year). Past that, everything else is actually viable, just not as optimal and needs you to play around it.
12/06/2017 05:39 AMPosted by Cloudstrife
Ret Paladin, Enhancement Shaman, Boomkin


Moonkins are actually very good contrary to peoples beliefs. I raided as a moonkin during vanilla - 0 issues.
Rets are excellent on Kazzak and Naxx because they can use Exorcism there.
Enhacement do suffer. Mostly because of threat modifier on Earth shock so they cant use it and their dmg was cut somewhat because of PvP reasons. But on the other hand, they are a PvP spec.
12/06/2017 02:38 AMPosted by Weili
You know I just don't want the classic server looking like that right when it opens. I know the guys who have been living on pservers do this crap because it's their biggest challege but once the Blizzard server goes live there will be other people to think about. In two years if super speed runs are the thing again I'm cool but not right away.
This is the biggest argument for opening content in patches or in a staggered fashion or something to throttle player power.


As someone who plays in a guild that on the most active private server currently that pushes server firsts and server fastest clears on some raids (namely BWL, haven't given MC or ZG a good shot in a while since we went casual from our 30 min BWL that has now been beaten) I fully stand by this.

I am heavily in favor of 1.1 talents just because of the restriction it puts on people.

Though speaking honestly, you'll have speed runners no matter what. After the first clears are done, there's no bragging rights except "we downed it quicker". Arguably the first clear is a giant speed run just far less refined usually.

The 1.12 additions and adjustments make MC and Onyxia just far easier than it should be. Some classes won't feel much like rogues (combat swords) but fury warriors are garbage with the old talents and they're the best DPS in the game for the longest time and only get beaten by mages around AQ40/Naxx time. So that'll cut raid damage significantly.

Tuning back the stats on items proved on Nostalrius to greatly reduce the output people were capable of early on.

Restricting MC's loot tables to pre 1.5 where Perd's, CHT, OEB, ToEP, RoSP and other hot ticket items couldn't drop made MC that much more relevant because it was 5-6 months less of acquiring really great gear. Once 1.5 came it was like a new content patch because every class had a shopping list of items they were wanting from the new tables. This made it so that BWL wasn't horribly outgeared.

Restricting DM and World Bosses is smart too because the loot they drop is absurd early on. Once DM comes out it trivializes half of the pre-raid for 1.2 because things like Bracers of the Eclipse are just way too strong compared to other gear.

Restricting the honor system from launch needs to happen because it adds 4-5 months of ranking worth of players into the mix. Not to mention R14 weapons get buffed in BWL slightly and at that point are either comparable or still better than the stuff from AQ40. These would be in the hands of people the day BWL launched.

Not to mention restricting the honor system prevents the cancerous mentality of no lifing to 60 to get the easiest chance at standing 1 then having to immediately no life for 3-4 months to keep getting standing 1 just to get your stuff. Releasing it on a set day likely would make it a lot more competitive to begin but it would probably be a safer alternative than there already being established premades the second you hit 60 and you must conform to their rules. Why not enjoy the PVE the game has to offer for a bit? You won't see much of it doing the honor grind.
12/06/2017 05:55 AMPosted by Rongente
Moonkins are actually very good contrary to peoples beliefs. I raided as a moonkin during vanilla - 0 issues.


Hm, the few I've seen always pull like no damage. Unless the fight goes perfectly in their favor and is VERY SHORT.

They do fine in MC where you down the snakes in 20 seconds and they aren't crippled by their poor mana. They're called oomkins at times for a reason.

Though when you get to AQ40, the druid is going to be doing damage comparable to the tank.

It's kind of like Arcane Mage from Cataclysm actually. You had those morons who didn't know the spec really as far as playing both burst and conserve phase and assumed it was literally spamming Arcane Blast as the memes dictated. So 10 seconds into the fight they're pulling 50k by spamming Arcane Blast, but at the end of the fight are doing 13k-15k while everyone else is doing 25k+ because they didn't properly do their conserve phase (or at all) and were sitting on OOM status after 30 seconds.
Why is everyone so concerned with raids? Back in vanilla, no one gave a !@#$ about raid balance because it was all about pvp
Many people who did not play vanilla do not understand that Hybrids were actually hybrids unlike today.

Resto druid is an incredible healer.
Hats off to anyone who can make Feral or Bear work.
12/05/2017 08:27 AMPosted by Blázè
wrong. YOU dont want class changes.
you and a handful of loud purists that keep spaming this forum.

i would love to see blizzard polish up some of the classes that clearly suffered due to the undeniably smug community.


The blatant narcissism from people who just can't accept that they're bad at a game is what killed wow.
12/06/2017 05:39 AMPosted by Cloudstrife
Yeah I've pointed this out a few times because people I guess have not grasped the basic concept of how class design differs in Vanilla vs the current game. Or from games around early 2000 as far as class design.

Or the fact that things like power budgets are important to enforce. Which means the more a class is capable of doing, the less effective it should be at doing those things. Jack of All Trades, Master of None sort of ordeal.


Yet Warriors post top DPS and top tank while Hunters with their single role aren't even brought for that.

Vanilla didn't follow the game design you claim.

12/06/2017 06:48 AMPosted by Pujol
Why is everyone so concerned with raids? Back in vanilla, no one gave a !@#$ about raid balance because it was all about pvp


Because according to Blizzard circa. 2005 everyone needed to be balanced around raiding.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum