You think you want to play Vanilla...

Classic Discussion
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12/11/2017 07:31 AMPosted by Katerina
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It's not wrong because you want sprinkles with Vanilla, so therefore you don't want Vanilla, as you want Vanilla with sprinkles on it.


You're also partly wrong though.

After the advent of the Cataclysm and their nuking of the old world of Azeroth, there has always been a large group that is interested in simply being able to simply revisit content and venues that no longer exist. "The tourists" as Blizzard referred to them, although I think that's a little too dismissive of a large block of them.

But for most of them, they don't care about what particular patch-level is implemented, or even which expansion-pack tier of content/abilities are available. They just want to be able to revisit that content. So I guess in some respects you have an "Agnostic" type grouping in the mix as well.

They don't care about the specifics of how it is implemented, just so long as they get to experience Azeroth as it was before the Cataclysm. If they can do so with the talents/abilities which that content was created/balanced/tuned around, that would be an awesome bonus, but not required.


Then they can play Vanilla to see the old world, so what's the problem here?
12/11/2017 07:20 AMPosted by Tatolicious
12/11/2017 06:11 AMPosted by Ipwnwitlight
Yes maybe they want some altered version of vanilla, but there are lots of ways vanilla could be improved while keeping the essence of vanilla. People who refuse to even talk about this are just little children who can't handle a debate. For example, what warlocks are really excited about their bags getting filled with soul shards again? What hunters are excited about using ammo again? Changing these two things would not have any impact on what the essence of vanilla was.


I understand you but that becomes a slippery slope. Some changes make sense, like those, however, I think the only way to play this safe is to give people real, unadulterated vanilla. With all of its wonders and glorious bull!@#$.


Which then brings us back to "You think you do, but you don't." Because certain BS limitations, which largely existed due to technical constraints of the time, are left "as is" in order to "authentic" you have then deliberately reduced the size of the player pool that is going to be inclined to stick around, and not by a small margin.

Leaving it "authentic" just ensures "the tourist" population comprises the overwhelming majority of the player base that visits, rather than just the simple majority. Which for those people wanting to experience 40 man raid content creates a massive problem. Either they get in at "Classic" release and basically prepare to play hard-core Vanilla for the better part of a year or more(on average) or expect to enjoy a never ending cycle of frustration as the "Classic Community" churns itself into little more than floatsam.

The social side of 40 man raiding was perhaps the most challenging part of the Vanilla Game, and that was while the content actually was progression content. I can only imagine the headaches guild/raid leadership people are going to have trying to progress through that content in a "Classic" context if they're not one of the top handful of guilds on their server/faction from the onset.

Actively pursuing an agenda that further restricts the number of people the game is likely to appeal to in the longer run is only going to make that nightmare worse for those people.

Which is where it also is relevant to Blizzard, because people failing to play "Classic" translates into potentially reduced subscription revenues for them.

While they may honor their promise to keep the servers on even if only 10 people are playing on them, that isn't their desired end-goal. They're not going to field a "fatally flawed product" simply to prove a point.

Blizzard has a history of terminating unreleased projects when they decide that the project "fails to meet (current) expectations." Three examples off-hand are WarCraft Adventures, StarCraft: Ghost, and Hydra. Even if Hydra had its assets recycled and turned into Overwatch.

Pure Vanilla isn't going to happen, they're going to at least file down some of the rougher edges.
12/11/2017 06:04 AMPosted by Modelcitizen
The vocal community that's pushed for vanilla for so long are not the majority of the players that seem to be posting on this forum.

You're exactly right, as soon as someone gets to "but", they don't want vanilla. So many people here acting like they want to play classic, yet have a list of changes they want implemented.

That means you don't want to play vanilla. Simple as that.


I want Vanilla... but without the people that will whine for changes ;)
Let me start by stating right off the bat that I do not want to play Vanilla again. I would not willingly go through all of that again for content that I have already seen.

That being said, I might get in for nostalgia. I had a lot of fun in Vanilla, and although I'd rather gouge my eyes than have to face the grind/prepwork/40-man raids once again, I'd like to revisit the leveling experience, and the old story of the game. But I don't expect to spend a whole lot of time on Classic servers. I've had my fill back in the day. Vanilla was a good game then but if left untouched it's going to be crap. There is no reason why Blizzard would not want to take advantage of all they have learned since then, especially from the technical point of view. Damn, with the right amount of care, one could play through Classic and then copy the toon to regular servers if and when they wanted to.

But I'd like to see something as close as possible to the original Vanilla experience, with the polish that servers get today. Less bugs, better class balance, quality of life improvements (I don't mean LFR, no). Achievements would be nice, too.

I would not like to see changes to quests - or lack thereof (40-50 anyone?). I'd also like the old PvP rating system untouched, even if only to give people a taste of what it really was like. Also, no flying, regular mount at 40 and epic mount at 60, drop rates, old bag size, old quest items taking up space... and I mean it. Back in the day the immersion was deeper because of details like those. You had to think every move through, including whether you had enough bag space for the journey back. Or enough ammo. Or food and drink.

Also, let the newbies grind for Molten Core. I think they deserve it.
if you want change then change retail wow. thats specificly what its there for. classic is vanilla and anything changed (other than besides bug fixes) within this version would make it not vanilla.
But for most of them, they don't care about what particular patch-level is implemented, or even which expansion-pack tier of content/abilities are available. They just want to be able to revisit that content. So I guess in some respects you have an "Agnostic" type grouping in the mix as well.

They don't care about the specifics of how it is implemented, just so long as they get to experience Azeroth as it was before the Cataclysm. If they can do so with the talents/abilities which that content was created/balanced/tuned around, that would be an awesome bonus, but not required.


Then they can play Vanilla to see the old world, so what's the problem here?[/quote]

Not caring(with respect to content access) isn't the same thing as being wholly indifferent to the matter. Many of those people would probably in turn end up asking for paid transfers off the "Vanilla Realms" once their achieve whatever they're doing there. In fact, I'd almost expect that to be something Blizzard actively allows as it turns Classic into an ongoing revenue stream.

Many people will preferentially level their characters "old school" on Classic, possibly linger around to achieve certain things(that may no longer be available) on Vanilla before transferring their characters off to another realm where that character can then continue to progress.

But that also cycles back to that "tourist" thing, and the churn I mentioned earlier in this thread. Certain things no longer available? Uh oh, there are a number of raid goodies in that category. Won't it be fun when your top Priest sever transfers to live after completing the Benediction quest line? Or your top DPS warrior goes "peace, out" after getting their Orange Hammer? Or your tank poofs after getting Thunderfury? Granted, the Ashbringer in particular has an allure all of its own, so some of the DPS types will stick it out in hopes of that.

The more "unpleasant" you make the rest of the Classic Game is going to have a direct correlation to people wanting to stick around after they've knocked out their bucket list for Vanilla. In game social commitments and relationships are going to be secondary (or lower) factors in the decision making process of the players.

As such, Vanilla is very much an animal where "authentic" needs to take a back seat to addressing "game play features" that will only serve to frustrate players and piss them off. The people wanting to play the raid end-game, and Blizzard alike around to want those people to stick around, and intentionally frustrating them for no discernible reason(beyond "but this is authentic!") doesn't help. And I'm not talking about the whole 40 people and 2 purples when I wrote the above.
I don't expect to spend a whole lot of time on Classic servers. I've had my fill back in the day. That being said, Vanilla was a good game then but if left untouched it's going to be crap. There is no reason why Blizzard would not want to take advantage of all they have learned since then, especially from the technical point of view. Damn, with the right amount of care, one could play through Classic and then copy the toon to regular servers if and when they wanted to.

But I'd like to see something as close as possible to the original Vanilla experience, with the polish that servers get today. Less bugs, better class balance, quality of life improvements (I don't mean LFR, no). Achievements would be nice, too.

I would not like to see changes to quests - or lack thereof (40-50 anyone?). I'd also like the old PvP rating system untouched, even if only to give people a taste of what it really was like. Also, no flying, regular mount at 40 and epic mount at 60, drop rates, old bag size, old quest items taking up space... and I mean it. Back in the day the immersion was deeper because of details like those. You had to think every move through, including whether you had enough bag space for the journey back. Or enough ammo. Or food and drink.

Also, let the newbies grind for Molten Core. I think they deserve it.


No achievements please. They warp the gameplay experience. Part of the essence of Vanilla was that the game-world was there, open, and you had to go make of it what you will. Achievements funnel activity and goals into certain parts and aspects artifically - and also necessitate a meta-style grouping. (LFM BWL - must have AotC Nefarian).

Part of grouping was 'oh, I remember I played with that guy in X. He's alright.' or 'He's in Y guild - they're really good, let's get him!' or 'I've seen him around dueling, he's pretty geared and good' and so forth. At least it was on my server - being anecdotal, I can't assume it is true for everyone's experiences.

Class balance is something everyone has discussed to death, but at the risk of it: No to that too please. Balance is both demonstrably and momentously difficult to achieve. I don't think that should be something Blizzard turns their attention to, because then they'll never be able to look away.
...
This statement has been made so many times around here that I think people are actually starting to believe its true, however, As someone who originally played from release... As someone who has advocated my disapproval of any xpac, even since the launch of BC and also someone who has played live from time to time and was never able to get into it like i did in vanilla... As someone who has been vocal about wanting a classic server and is just as excited about vanilla as anyone else on these forums... As someone who hates almost every change that has been made along the way from 61-110... But also as someone who feels minor class balancing is welcomed... I can say that this statement is flat out wrong.


It's not wrong because you want sprinkles with Vanilla, so therefore you don't want Vanilla, as you want Vanilla with sprinkles on it.


You're damn right I want Vanilla with Sprinkles on it! And I've been asking for Vanilla just as long as everyone else so you're statement is already wrong.

No I do not want LFG or quest markers or everything everyone has already agreed should not be in Classic.

  • Ability to be able to mail multiple items at once at a mailbox
  • Ability to link tradeskills / skills / talents in chat to make conversing with people easier (you know, improving communication helps the whole community thing)
  • Ability to search in tradeskills so I don't have to scroll through my engineering 4 times to find Solid Blasting Powder
  • Ability to be able to talk to NPCs while in a shapeshift form as a druid / shaman (Is this a class balance though? Ha!)
  • Setting notes for friends on my friends list
  • Ability to see my spell crit, spell power, hit chance, etc.
  • Cast bars for enemy casting spells
  • Shift Clicking items in inventory to search for them in the Auction House


Everything I've listed I could do with addons. I'm sure someone will tell me to just go use those addons. Don't you worry, I will if these changes don't make it to classic. But these are such basic UI improvements to simply reduce addon clutter while giving non-vets a better experience.

So Yes, I want sprinkles on the User Interface portion of my cup of Vanilla Ice Cream.

And if we're making very broad statements anyways: The Majority of people who will play Classic will not mind UI improvements and will welcome them since they all know it will not effect the spirit & gameplay of Vanilla.
12/11/2017 08:15 AMPosted by Gror
...

It's not wrong because you want sprinkles with Vanilla, so therefore you don't want Vanilla, as you want Vanilla with sprinkles on it.


You're damn right I want Vanilla with Sprinkles on it! And I've been asking for Vanilla just as long as everyone else so you're statement is already wrong.

No I do not want LFG or quest markers or everything everyone has already agreed should not be in Classic.

  • Ability to be able to mail multiple items at once at a mailbox
  • Ability to link tradeskills / skills / talents in chat to make conversing with people easier (you know, improving communication helps the whole community thing)
  • Ability to search in tradeskills so I don't have to scroll through my engineering 4 times to find Solid Blasting Powder
  • Ability to be able to talk to NPCs while in a shapeshift form as a druid / shaman (Is this a class balance though? Ha!)
  • Setting notes for friends on my friends list
  • Ability to see my spell crit, spell power, hit chance, etc.
  • Cast bars for enemy casting spells
  • Shift Clicking items in inventory to search for them in the Auction House


Everything I've listed I could do with addons. I'm sure someone will tell me to just go use those addons. Don't you worry, I will if these changes don't make it to classic. But these are such basic UI improvements to simply reduce addon clutter while giving non-vets a better experience.

So Yes, I want sprinkles on the User Interface portion of my cup of Vanilla Ice Cream.

And if we're making very broad statements anyways: The Majority of people who will play Classic will not mind UI improvements and will welcome them since they all know it will not effect the spirit & gameplay of Vanilla.


Then use addons. Not Vanilla. Not hard. Slippery Slope to touristville LFR MC.
12/11/2017 08:15 AMPosted by Gror
Ability to be able to talk to NPCs while in a shapeshift form as a druid / shaman (Is this a class balance though? Ha!)
This would fall under class fantasy, not balance.

12/11/2017 08:15 AMPosted by Gror
Cast bars for enemy casting spells
This would affect both pvp balance and ease of pve.

All of the others I don't see anything particularly disagreeable about. You see though, part of the reason people are asking for no changes is that we know that once the door is open all manner of well intentioned but harmful things are going to slip past. Its our way of trying to limit potential damage because I think we all know the engineers at blizzard are going to try and slip some things into the game if only to leave their mark on the project.
12/11/2017 08:03 AMPosted by Houjea
if you want change then change retail wow. thats specificly what its there for. classic is vanilla and anything changed (other than besides bug fixes) within this version would make it not vanilla.


And pure vanilla is the thing we're telling you that Blizzard was right about.

"You think you want Vanilla, but you don't."

As to the people who truly want "pure vanilla." I think you'll find their numbers are very small in comparison to the potential player base Blizzard could draw in with only some small adjustments when considering the scale that WoW is built on.

I might like to go visit "authentic" historical town settings as well. But that doesn't mean I want to see horse manure spread across the city streets that I'll be walking in, open sewers, and a long list of other "authentic" things while there.
12/11/2017 08:15 AMPosted by Gror
Ability to be able to talk to NPCs while in a shapeshift form as a druid / shaman (Is this a class balance though? Ha!)
This would fall under class fantasy, not balance.

HA! Touche.
Cast bars for enemy casting spells
This would affect both pvp balance and ease of pve.

But, I already have this with an addon: Natur Enemy Castbar.

So I have an advantage already. Getting rid of this advantage would make pvp a more level playing field. And by extension I use it for PvE too, I was already making PvE easier with an addon.

My point is that these UI changes already exist with addons.
All of the others I don't see anything particularly disagreeable about. You see though, part of the reason people are asking for no changes is that we know that once the door is open all manner of well intentioned but harmful things are going to slip past. Its our way of trying to limit potential damage because I think we all know the engineers at blizzard are going to try and slip some things into the game if only to leave their mark on the project.

First off, thank you for having a civil discussion about this. But I really don't and can't subscribe to the "slippery slope" argument though. As long each change can be looked at on a case-by-case basis. Its why I didn't mention things like Mass Looting, Stackable potions to greater than 5, etc. These were not things addons could and did solve. My argument is for improving classic's UI where addons already solved for these issues. Make everyone's life easier and give everyone a more level playing field, within reason.
All of the others I don't see anything particularly disagreeable about. You see though, part of the reason people are asking for no changes is that we know that once the door is open all manner of well intentioned but harmful things are going to slip past. Its our way of trying to limit potential damage because I think we all know the engineers at blizzard are going to try and slip some things into the game if only to leave their mark on the project.

First off, thank you for having a civil discussion about this. But I really don't and can't subscribe to the "slippery slope" argument though. As long each change can be looked at on a case-by-case basis. Its why I didn't mention things like Mass Looting, Stackable potions to greater than 5, etc. These were not things addons could and did solve. My argument is for improving classic's UI where addons already solved for these issues. Make everyone's life easier and give everyone a more level playing field, within reason.


I'm personally not buying into the "slippery slope" concern on this one. Blizzard is doing one of two things with this, if not both.

1) "Classic WoW" is viewed by them as now being viewed as a complimentary product to Retail. It plays differently enough it isn't the same thing, even if it is closely related. In other words, Retail is a Big Mac while Classic is a Double Quarter Pounder. There is room for considerable variation as to how the Double Quarter Pounder can be prepared/presented without turning it into a Big Mac. Blizzard doesn't want it to be a Big Mac, and they're going to ensure it doesn't do so. But that doesn't mean they can't do a number of other things.

2) A more exotic option is they're considering a more changeable/dynamic play environment (think Time Walking on steroids) and getting "Vanilla" back into a playable state is simply step one in that broader process. As a long term goal for Blizzard, this one probably makes the most sense.

If they can make it work without creating a spaghetti monster from the lowest circle of hell, at least. Everyone has their favored expansion tier or tiers(including Vanilla), and providing them a means to experience it once more "as endgame" by whatever tricks/means is a solid enough way to attempt to draw players back, and get them to stick around(with paid subscriptions active).
12/11/2017 08:55 AMPosted by Gror
But, I already have this with an addon: Natur Enemy Castbar.

So I have an advantage already. Getting rid of this advantage would make pvp a more level playing field. And by extension I use it for PvE too, I was already making PvE easier with an addon.

My point is that these UI changes already exist with addons.
To be frank blizzard should break that addon, specifically because it is not information that is even an option to be given to players in the default ui. Alternatively the argument could be made that that kind of information was available in vanilla and it should be added to the default ui. Either way it is a gamechanging feature. But overall given the trajectory of this game if anything is clear the slippery slope is anything but a fallacy.
12/11/2017 09:27 AMPosted by Vandal
12/11/2017 08:55 AMPosted by Gror
But, I already have this with an addon: Natur Enemy Castbar.

So I have an advantage already. Getting rid of this advantage would make pvp a more level playing field. And by extension I use it for PvE too, I was already making PvE easier with an addon.

My point is that these UI changes already exist with addons.
To be frank blizzard should break that addon, specifically because it is not information that is even an option to be given to players in the default ui. Alternatively the argument could be made that that kind of information was available in vanilla and it should be added to the default ui. Either way it is a gamechanging feature. But overall given the trajectory of this game if anything is clear the slippery slope is anything but a fallacy.


So by that logic, because I can't search for items in my tradeskills with the default UI they should break that addon?
Because I can't auto-dismount to cast spells with the default UI they should break that addon?
Because I can't mail multiple items at a mailbox with the default UI, they should break that addon?

Natur Enemy Cast Bar used information available to a player through addons - My point is give this information to all players with the default UI in Classic.
12/11/2017 05:38 AMPosted by Gambanteinn
The people who want changes aren't the ones who were asking for Blizzard to make vanilla again, so no.


Incorrect. But thanks for deciding who matters. These boards are full of attacks on each other more than anything related to actual vanilla anyway.
A lot of the people who are demanding vanilla honestly, sincerely sound like they're desperately trying to recapture their teens.
12/11/2017 09:47 AMPosted by Gror
So by that logic, because I can't search for items in my tradeskills with the default UI they should break that addon?
Because I can't auto-dismount to cast spells with the default UI they should break that addon?
Because I can't mail multiple items at a mailbox with the default UI, they should break that addon?

Natur Enemy Cast Bar used information available to a player through addons - My point is give this information to all players with the default UI in Classic.
No. Goodness, are you being intentionally obtuse? You can look for items in your backpack/tradeskills without an addon by using your peepers. You can make auto dismount macros for each and every one of your abilities without an addon. You can mail items without an addon.

On the other hand without an addon you would never have access to the information of what an enemy spellcaster was casting other than their glowing casting animation. No cast bar. No name of spell being cast.
12/11/2017 05:35 AMPosted by Yamoto
You think you want to play on Vanilla servers, but you don't.


Anyone but me wonder if all these threads asking for changes to vanilla are exactly what this line is referring to?
Sure. The problem with that line was that Brack assumed that everyone who was asking for classic servers was like that, actually wanting him to wave a wand and add fun to live servers without changing any of the "convenience" or adding "meaningless distractions."
12/11/2017 05:35 AMPosted by Yamoto
Anyone but me wonder if all these threads asking for changes to vanilla are exactly what this line is referring to?

Yes and no.

People who don't think they can play or enjoy vanilla without X or Y change? They probably aren't the target audience.

People who suggest X or Y change but will quite cheerfully play without it are probably within the scope of the target audience.

Most people posting here appear to fall into the latter category, myself included. I've been asking for updated graphics since 2005, and I will play and love classic without them. It won't stop me from wanting updated graphics, but not getting them isn't going to detract from the game. I don't want to play vanilla for the graphics, I want to play it for the gameplay mechanics.

"People asking for changes to vanilla aren't the target audience" is disingenuous and dishonest. Talking about changes and sharing ideas does not mean one does not enjoy or wish to play vanilla without any of those things.

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