PvP gearing is bad and not fun (HELP)

Arenas
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Hello friends, I am writing this post due to recent concerns regarding PvP gear.

Apologize in advance for the massive use of the terms "PvP gear" and "PvE gear".

The only advantage PvP gear has in PvP or any other aspect of the game is its item level. PvE set bonuses and trinkets are still far superior in both high end raiding and high end mythic dungeons. This makes sense, high end raiding and dungeons should have beneficial gear for their type of game play.

The issue I'm having is now PvE gear is both easier to obtain and higher item level then its PvP counterpart. Gearing has essentially become irrelevant in PvP and has really taken a back seat this expansion. As a result, its feel like participation is down more than ever.

I'll give you a bit of an anecdote: I've been playing the game since vanilla and haven't really dipped my feet in much PvE content since early WOTLK. This expansion with +10/+15 chests rewards from Mythic+, I decided it was worth my time to complete this task weekly. I didn't feel like I was wasting my time and ended up enjoying the content as a way to progress my character. As a result I've come to really enjoy this type of content and now participate in Mythic raiding as well. If there wasn't that initial incentive to try the content and feel good about getting gear, I never would of done it in the first place.

With that in mind I'd like to now compare ways to gear in PvP content vs PvE content. Strictly in terms of item level here's a list from worst to best.

845 From normal dungeons
870 Random battlegrounds
885 Mythic +0
900 Crafting with blood of sargeras
900 Chest from winning a brawl once every two weeks.
910 Reliquished
915 LFR Antorus
925 LFR Argus
930 Normal Antorus
930 Rare drop from being 2400 rated in arena and winning a match.
940 Guaranteed from every mythic +15
940 Weekly PvP cap for being 2000 rated in arena.
940 Normal Argus
945 Heroic Antorus
950 Weekly PvP cap for being 2400 rated in arena.
955 Heroic Argus
960 Mythic Antorus & Weekly chest from m+ 15
970 Mythic Argus

These aren't the only ways of gearing but most.

For a new or casual player it's easy to see why gearing in PvE is not only much more rewarding but also guaranteed.

Do you know how many times I've heard my PvP buddies say "Lets go get our weekly +15 done" compared to my PvE friends saying "Lets go get 2400 rating so we can get our weekly cap done!". Even if you completely disregard the difficulty of achieving that rating in PvP, there's a monumental time difference in the two tasks, they're not even comparable. And yet, the weekly chest is still higher item level.

A reasonable item level to compete at higher end PvP and PvE is around 940.
Anyone aiming for this goal wouldn't waste their time PvP.

Reminder:

940 Guaranteed from every mythic +15 (GUARANTEED FOR COMPLETING, NOT EVEN IN TIME)
940 Weekly PvP cap for being 2000 rated in arena. (ONCE A WEEK)
940 Normal Argus (ONCE A WEEK)
945 Heroic Antorus (10 BOSSES A WEEK)
950 Weekly PvP cap for being 2400 rated in arena. (ONCE A WEEK)
955 Heroic Argus (ONCE A WEEK)
960 Mythic Antorus (10 BOSSES A WEEK) & Weekly chest from m+ 15 (ONCE A WEEK)
970 Mythic Argus (ONCE A WEEK)

Here's my WW monks armory: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/tichondrius/venfuki

I've played 219 games of arena this season at roughly 2500 MMR & 2400 CR. So far this season I've received 0 upgrades. The only pieces of PvP gear that remain for me are 2 pieces of elite warforged, something most players would never have access to. What's really disheartening is this problem is even worse for casual, low rated and mid tier PvPers.

People should feel incentivized to play all aspects of WoW. Currently PvP gear has taken a massive back seat and as a result participation and interest feels lower than ever.

Am I alone in feeling this way?
agreed.
yes, and yes.. I *honestly* miss the old system of grinding honor and conquest to get gear..

You hit it on the nail here,

" As a result, its feel like participation is down more than ever."

Because for example myself, I haven't really tried to PVP at all this expansion since PVE gear was easier to obtain. I miss PVPing with the aspect of being able to get better gear.
No one's going to feel incentivized to PVP for gear until vendors come back. You guys all go on and on about ilvl when even if PVP gear was on part with PVE, it still wouldn't be worth it due to itemization.

Not to also mention RNG being a factor as well. RNG hoping a gear drops then RNG hoping you get proper itemization.

It's far from repairable.

edit:
Also, BUFF AP REWARDS. If I wanna beast out to 75 Artifact, PVP is my last option outside of the weekly RBG (which is actually pretty good as is).
WotLK gearing system would be cool to have again. Unlocking the best piece one by one when you reach a certain rating.
I would 100% enjoy pvping more if there was something to work towards to progress my character. As of now, there is no incentive.

Also #soloqueuearena
12/10/2017 11:07 AMPosted by Mabus
yes, and yes.. I *honestly* miss the old system of grinding honor and conquest to get gear..


I miss being able to itemize myself and theorycraft my own stats in pvp.

The pvp template was supposed to 'even the playing field' for under geared folks and allow flexibility in balancing. It did not succeed on either ends, we still have the same balancing issues that we always have had and always will have, and the gap between a fresh 110 and a geared 110 in pvp is larger than ever with artifact weapons, honour talents and ilevel gear.

imo the pvp template ties into how boring it is to gear for pvp

12/10/2017 11:08 AMPosted by Felryn
No one's going to feel incentivized to PVP for gear until vendors come back. You guys all go on and on about ilvl when even if PVP gear was on part with PVE, it still wouldn't be worth it due to itemization.

Not to also mention RNG as well being a factor as well. RNG hoping a gear drops then RNG hoping you get proper itemization.

It's far from repairable.


Exactly.
One thing that is left out of this post is titanforging. While PVP offers high item level gear, the amount of pieces you get is random, and can be staggering. Take for example the 33 games i won in a day before season end and got *one* piece of gear. Meanwhile i could have spent that time doing m+ dungeons and gotten multiple pieces of gear, which means multiple (and more) chances of titanforging.
Bring back gear from vendors, and bring back interesting gear (sockets with bonuses 4 piece, trinkets, etc..).

Bring back conquest caps and catchups.

Bring back the ability to play "differently" through gear (i.e.; stacking resil for more tanky'ness, heavy haste/crit for example for more glass cannon playstyle etc).

Make arena great again.
it's sad that a regular bg, the entry level to pvp, rewards lower item level gear than the catch up gear from an entire patch ago (the broken shore one)..
bring back mop/wod vendors please.
Yup as a PvPer there seems no incentive to gear up. My main partner doesn't even bother playing the game until the end of the season since playing weekly is such a minimal chance of even upgrading his character for such a time investment when we both have busy lives.

He's fallen behind on ilvl through the seasons, even though every single season we achieve r1.

I'm going to go a little off topic with the rest of my post, with ilvl disregarded. As far as things like elite sets I actually had almost 1000 games played last season and was the highest rated player on my faction and I still never completed the elite set.

I have a higher chance than a casual player of getting an elite set from my rating... and yet I still didn't complete it even while being reasonably hardcore (i.e I was super time efficient on my time spent playing dispite rl). Usually at the end of seasons my partners even struggle to get their 150 wins because again... incentives are so low to even PvP in the first place.

I'm sure many of us seen Blizzcon competitor Trilltko just barely get his 150 wins required for his r1 title last season, even though he was the highest rated player on ladder.

When even the hardcore players are struggling to match the incentives for PvP, there is a clear issue.
I agree with this 100%. I like being able to progress in this game and pvp right now isn't cutting it. There's more balance and gear upgrade potential from farming mythic +'s all day. I love pvp, but right now I feel there's no real reason to que until late season when rating matter for titles.

I remember in MoP when you had to buy everything from a vendor (Was my first season ever queing pvp, i know prior seasons had vendors), and every single piece I got felt really rewarding. Every last piece down to the pvp power/resil gem for meta socket. All of it felt really good to achieve. Every day I logged on to pvp, I felt like I was getting stuff done, was actually productive. Now when I que, even if I go up 200 points, it doesn't feel rewarding at all. I don't earn anything with that rating I spent 3 hours getting that day. Even in mop when I finally reached fully geared on my mage, world pvp was exciting because of the Timeless isle. I spent HOURS on that island farming pve mobs while spawn camping bodies. Now all I do is log on and basically afk for hours looking for partners that even want to que.
12/10/2017 11:02 AMPosted by Venruki
I've been playing the game since vanilla


COMON MAN DID YOU HAVE TO DO IT
I was a really big fan of how the ilevel scaling of pvp gear worked in WoD. To me, that seemed like the best middle ground to make both the pve and pvp crowd somewhat happy.
I always thought just giving people a full set of PvP gear right off the bat would help a lot. We should be getting rewards (mounts, titles. re-colors) for hitting X rating. Not gear.

Just my personal opinion on PvP gear that i'v had since Cata.
12/10/2017 12:41 PMPosted by Sixonine
12/10/2017 11:02 AMPosted by Venruki
I've been playing the game since vanilla


COMON MAN DID YOU HAVE TO DO IT


he did

also;

12/10/2017 12:09 PMPosted by Dillon
He's fallen behind on ilvl through the seasons, even though every single season we achieve r1.


some things never change
12/10/2017 11:02 AMPosted by Venruki
Hello friends, I am writing this post due to recent concerns regarding PvP gear.

Apologize in advance for the massive use of the terms "PvP gear" and "PvE gear".

The only advantage PvP gear has in PvP or any other aspect of the game is its item level. PvE set bonuses and trinkets are still far superior in both high end raiding and high end mythic dungeons. This makes sense, high end raiding and dungeons should have beneficial gear for their type of game play.

The issue I'm having is now PvE gear is both easier to obtain and higher item level then its PvP counterpart. Gearing has essentially become irrelevant in PvP and has really taken a back seat this expansion. As a result, its feel like participation is down more than ever.

I'll give you a bit of an anecdote: I've been playing the game since vanilla and haven't really dipped my feet in much PvE content since early WOTLK. This expansion with +10/+15 chests rewards from Mythic+, I decided it was worth my time to complete this task weekly. I didn't feel like I was wasting my time and ended up enjoying the content as a way to progress my character. As a result I've come to really enjoy this type of content and now participate in Mythic raiding as well. If there wasn't that initial incentive to try the content and feel good about getting gear, I never would of done it in the first place.

With that in mind I'd like to now compare ways to gear in PvP content vs PvE content. Strictly in terms of item level here's a list from worst to best.

845 From normal dungeons
870 Random battlegrounds
885 Mythic +0
900 Crafting with blood of sargeras
900 Chest from winning a brawl once every two weeks.
910 Reliquished
915 LFR Antorus
925 LFR Argus
930 Normal Antorus
930 Rare drop from being 2400 rated in arena and winning a match.
940 Guaranteed from every mythic +15
940 Weekly PvP cap for being 2000 rated in arena.
940 Normal Argus
945 Heroic Antorus
950 Weekly PvP cap for being 2400 rated in arena.
955 Heroic Argus
960 Mythic Antorus & Weekly chest from m+ 15
970 Mythic Argus

These aren't the only ways of gearing but most.

For a new or casual player it's easy to see why gearing in PvE is not only much more rewarding but also guaranteed.

Do you know how many times I've heard my PvP buddies say "Lets go get our weekly +15 done" compared to my PvE friends saying "Lets go get 2400 rating so we can get our weekly cap done!". Even if you completely disregard the difficulty of achieving that rating in PvP, there's a monumental time difference in the two tasks, they're not even comparable. And yet, the weekly chest is still higher item level.

A reasonable item level to compete at higher end PvP and PvE is around 940.
Anyone aiming for this goal wouldn't waste their time PvP.

Reminder:

940 Guaranteed from every mythic +15 (GUARANTEED FOR COMPLETING, NOT EVEN IN TIME)
940 Weekly PvP cap for being 2000 rated in arena. (ONCE A WEEK)
940 Normal Argus (ONCE A WEEK)
945 Heroic Antorus (10 BOSSES A WEEK)
950 Weekly PvP cap for being 2400 rated in arena. (ONCE A WEEK)
955 Heroic Argus (ONCE A WEEK)
960 Mythic Antorus (10 BOSSES A WEEK) & Weekly chest from m+ 15 (ONCE A WEEK)
970 Mythic Argus (ONCE A WEEK)

Here's my WW monks armory: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/tichondrius/venfuki

I've played 219 games of arena this season at roughly 2500 MMR & 2400 CR. So far this season I've received 0 upgrades. The only pieces of PvP gear that remain for me are 2 pieces of elite warforged, something most players would never have access to. What's really disheartening is this problem is even worse for casual, low rated and mid tier PvPers.

People should feel incentivized to play all aspects of WoW. Currently PvP gear has taken a massive back seat and as a result participation and interest feels lower than ever.

Am I alone in feeling this way?


*Slow clap*

Yes, thank you for posting this as I have tried to highlight this where ever I can. I am not asking for elite gear for us bottom feeders.

When I started playing...being able to target and obtain an honor set via doing PVP was the pure greatest joy I had playing this game.

Sure, in Legion I have access to gear that is greater than honor set but I didn't do any PVP to obtain it. And frankly hitting two buttons in PVE to obtain argunite isn't interesting game play to be honest.

PVP gearing system needs some serious help for players at the top, bottom and mid range players. For the rated and non rated players and also for returning players coming mid or late into the season.
I could not have said it better myself.
Full disclosure: I am not a high rated arena player, in fact arenas scare me a bit this expansion as I have not arena's since mid WOD and I am not ashamed to admit that. I am mostly an RBG junkie. I am not the on the level of Venruki. But I was an everyday pvper and it was my main game play driving force for many expansions. So my thoughts below are from that stand point.

I have struggled to bring myself to pvp this entire expansion. While I am not a high level pvper, I spent most of MOP and WOD pvping versus doing all the pve content. I have never fancied raiding much beyond at least clearing normal of whatever current tier. This expansion has been almost all pve content for me with a few small attempts to get myself back into pvp here and there.

I miss the conquest/honor grind. I miss the gear vendors. I miss the ability to gain the currency I need to get the gear for PvP that I wanted. I miss the feeling of each week reset at the start of each season. That feeling when you rushed home from work or whatever you needed to do IRL so that you could gather your friends and grind to cap out.

I feel in Blizzard's aim to make it easier for new players to join or make it less "work" for them, they lost sight of the PvP community as a whole. A possible better balance for new/old players & super casual players/daily PvPers would be to have a separate set of basic PvP gear drop RNG as it does now and bring back currency/vendors for more hardcore players. RNG does not belong in PvP as the sole way to gear. Removing currency/vendors took away the uniqueness of PvP. While I do not presume to tell Blizzard how to develop and change their own content, I make humble suggestions.

While I do not know if everyone feels as I do regarding desperately missing the previous expansions currency grinding for gear. I know this just killed my love as a whole for PvP. As of this moment my only joy is watching my favorite pros so I at least get my fix.

I have typically rolled with most changes Blizzard has made over the years because without change the game can not evolve. However, the current state of PvP given the above mentioned changes which no counter balance or equal improvement in the system is something that if I was not a podcaster/content creator for World of Warcraft which requires me to keep myself involved and my guild, I do not know if I would have had it in me to keep playing.

This is not because the other content available like PvE, story progression, Mythic dungeons and all the other great additions this expansion is not worth it to keep playing. I have enjoyed the PvE content immensely this expansion. Nor is this because I am a grumpy Vanilla player who feels a sense of entitlement. But rather, even with all the great PvE content, PvP was a large part of my love overall for this game.

That is just my scrub two cents to the Blizzard powers that be.
I agree and it's gotten to a point where pvp isn't rewarding anymore. TBH, I would like them to care more about the casual experience, but it's not gonna happen because most of the people that are left playing pvp (the ones giving most of the feedback) and the developers that are focused on it are too elitist.
why are bgs dropping 870 gear? i can do world quests in argus for 910+...and even then 910 is pretty bad

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