PvP gearing is bad and not fun (HELP)

Arenas
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ey blue man, wya.
-agreed gearing feels largely worthless

-dueling destroyed

- world pvp destroyed

Last 2 expansions took away customization, was especially harsh on world pvp and just made things worse in many aspects such as many items and thrinkets not working in BG's which took away alot of fun IMO.
12/10/2017 05:42 PMPosted by Helfdan
12/10/2017 11:16 AMPosted by Hansol
WotLK gearing system would be cool to have again. Unlocking the best piece one by one when you reach a certain rating.


No, just a terrible idea. As a person who just got 2k for the first time ever it took a lot of effort for me to do that. Most people cannot accomplish even that goal, and gating the gear behind a rating that most people can't achieve only seems like a good idea when you're a R1 person who sees the rating requirements as trivial.


Thats the point. Its SUPPOSED TO TAKE EFFORT. Effort is supposed to be rewarded. Why would you do arenas at all if they had no reward? What incentive is there to go from 2k to 2200 and then get your weekly cap, a slightly higher item level of random gear with random stats? Thats not appealing, thats not rewarding, and thats the problem.

2k is hard to get for the majority of the playerbase, but imagine if you could walk up to a vendor after that, and just buy a swagged up 945 elite gladiator helm with juicy stats on it. You wouldnt be crying about how hard it was to que Cupid to 2k, youd say "I earned this, and no one can take that away from me. I DID SOMETHING." Thats what PVP is missing. Deterministic rewards that incentive participation and giving players a reason to improve to get better rewards.

Why does everyone need to get the same rewards? Why should Challenger Helfdan have the same gear as Ferocious Gladiator Venruki? The answer is he shouldnt. Challenger Helfdan is supposed to sit in his pleb armor, seeing Ferocious Gladiator Venruki afk in Dalaran and say "Holy !@#$, this is a R1 Mage." Inspect him, see his gear, and think "Wow, hes %^-*ing good. His gear is amazing! Maybe that can be me." And this makes players who quite frankly suck go out and PVP, get !@#$ on, and then want to improve for said rewards, so they watch streams, read guides, improve, grind it out, and eventually they will climb over time. As your rating climbs, you see yourself improving, and get rewarded with each bracket I.e. 1800 weapon and such.
btw...

RNG gearing SUCKS, also there is a complete lack of customization of stats, many tiers of pvp talents are largely pigeonholed into a single choice because it is so much better then the other 2.
Already unsubbed my hope for things getting better in legion died. Bad class design, bad pvp, bad gearing system.
I agree with your points and support the message. You presented the information in a great way.

Avengelyne's thread from a few days ago also brought up a lot of similar points.

It would be nice if Blizzard realized how far off current PvP rewards are, but I don't think its going to happen. It is a slap in the face to have the expansion end with such terrible reward scaling (for PvP) compared to the rest of the game.
Memba when every tuesday was christmas morning for wow players?

I memba.
12/11/2017 01:06 AMPosted by Iwasbored
<span class="truncated">...</span>

No, just a terrible idea. As a person who just got 2k for the first time ever it took a lot of effort for me to do that. Most people cannot accomplish even that goal, and gating the gear behind a rating that most people can't achieve only seems like a good idea when you're a R1 person who sees the rating requirements as trivial.


Thats the point. Its SUPPOSED TO TAKE EFFORT. Effort is supposed to be rewarded. Why would you do arenas at all if they had no reward? What incentive is there to go from 2k to 2200 and then get your weekly cap, a slightly higher item level of random gear with random stats? Thats not appealing, thats not rewarding, and thats the problem.

2k is hard to get for the majority of the playerbase, but imagine if you could walk up to a vendor after that, and just buy a swagged up 945 elite gladiator helm with juicy stats on it. You wouldnt be crying about how hard it was to que Cupid to 2k, youd say "I earned this, and no one can take that away from me. I DID SOMETHING." Thats what PVP is missing. Deterministic rewards that incentive participation and giving players a reason to improve to get better rewards.

Why does everyone need to get the same rewards? Why should Challenger Helfdan have the same gear as Ferocious Gladiator Venruki? The answer is he shouldnt. Challenger Helfdan is supposed to sit in his pleb armor, seeing Ferocious Gladiator Venruki afk in Dalaran and say "Holy !@#$, this is a R1 Mage." Inspect him, see his gear, and think "Wow, hes %^-*ing good. His gear is amazing! Maybe that can be me." And this makes players who quite frankly suck go out and PVP, get !@#$ on, and then want to improve for said rewards, so they watch streams, read guides, improve, grind it out, and eventually they will climb over time. As your rating climbs, you see yourself improving, and get rewarded with each bracket I.e. 1800 weapon and such.


The majority of the player base should at least be able to complete the basic arena set. Maybe the pieces aren't as good, and maybe it's not the "elite" set, but there should be a basic set at least. That's my point. Back in Wrath (which I did not play) I would have had to run around with some PvE shoulders I guess. Kind of sucks for OCD people like me, and also causes me to do PvE which contrary to a lot of complaining on this forum I haven't had to do at all in this expansion. Other than WQ's for AP.

Maybe you set the ratings lower, but setting them at 2200 or 2400, where there are literally a few thousand characters (many of which are the same person repeated through different alts) is too much.

Challenger? Um, ok.
12/11/2017 01:13 AMPosted by Zmora
btw...

RNG gearing SUCKS, also there is a complete lack of customization of stats, many tiers of pvp talents are largely pigeonholed into a single choice because it is so much better then the other 2.


This is true as it does force talent choices. Being able to choose a template or being able to move around some stats (eg 5%) would have made this a more intuitive system.

This way the template system protects noobs from stat allocation mistakes, but gives experienced players some stats to move around for their liking.
12/10/2017 11:02 AMPosted by Venruki

Do you know how many times I've heard my PvP buddies say "Lets go get our weekly +15 done" compared to my PvE friends saying "Lets go get 2400 rating so we can get our weekly cap done!". Even if you completely disregard the difficulty of achieving that rating in PvP, there's a monumental time difference in the two tasks, they're not even comparable. And yet, the weekly chest is still higher item level.


nailed it

good job, +1
Just revert PVP back to WoTLK Season 8.
I quit PvP'ing this season when I found out what ilvl the weekly gives at 2k~2.4k

I PvP'd for fun and to get a bit of an edge on my fellow raiders with high ilvl pieces that I earned through effort. Now, it's not worth the time at all to try to PvP to get some PvE upgrades so I'd rather progress my character by doing M+.

Hell, last season my PvE friends said they would try PvP'ing to get really good gear this season but upon learning the ilvl have thrown that thought out the window.

Will not do PvP if no incentive to try. Why try titanforging a piece of 940 2k gear (which is what most of my raiders would be able to barely get) instead of just trying to titanforge M+ gear where you know EXACTLY what piece will drop and can farm it.

It's stupid. Make elite mythic ilvl like it was last season. It was working on getting more PvE'ers to at least envy the rating. Now, it's a complete joke and no one envies it nor will try to get it. Myself included since I already got the full shaman and monk elite mog.
It's kind of crazy that you have to be in Rival/Duelist range to get a once per week PvP drop on par with a normal antorus drop. It's also absurd that regular drops (i.e. not weekly drop) in current rival range are lower ilevel than antorus lfr drops. No wonder participation is as low as it is.
I feel like this was mistakenly posted in the Arenas forum where threads die, you need Crepe from GD to comment on this or nothing is going to happen.
when will everybody learn, pvp is the lowest of blizzard priority (underneath or the same level as wow professions).

PVP will die very soon and that is their near future plans....it is only obvious...has been since MoP.
12/11/2017 07:46 AMPosted by Espressa
I feel like this was mistakenly posted in the Arenas forum where threads die, you need Crepe from GD to comment on this or nothing is going to happen.


Done:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759618874#post-1
12/11/2017 07:46 AMPosted by Bertimus
It's kind of crazy that you have to be in Rival/Duelist range to get a once per week PvP drop on par with a normal antorus drop. It's also absurd that regular drops (i.e. not weekly drop) in current rival range are lower ilevel than antorus lfr drops. No wonder participation is as low as it is.


I think it's more of a problem at the mid range, lower end rated players. There's basically NO intensive or reward for wanting to climb rating.

In the past you could find other people wanting their pants, shoulder, etc... and you could work towards that rating. Now it's become essentially meaningless, there's no common goal for PvPers to work towards.
12/11/2017 09:13 AMPosted by Venruki
12/11/2017 07:46 AMPosted by Bertimus
It's kind of crazy that you have to be in Rival/Duelist range to get a once per week PvP drop on par with a normal antorus drop. It's also absurd that regular drops (i.e. not weekly drop) in current rival range are lower ilevel than antorus lfr drops. No wonder participation is as low as it is.


I think it's more of a problem at the mid range, lower end rated players. There's basically NO intensive or reward for wanting to climb rating.

In the past you could find other people wanting their pants, shoulder, etc... and you could work towards that rating. Now it's become essentially meaningless, there's no common goal for PvPers to work towards.


I completely agree. I remember being SO pumped in S6 when I achieved my first current season helm, then shoulders, then eventually T2 weapon. The feeling of accomplishment from each individual reward was the motivator for the next. It seems like now they expect people to push rating for the sake of pushing rating with no other driver.

I think the ilevel gap is a problem in and of itself because of the relative ease of antorus lfr/normal vs how high you'd have to push in arenas or rbg's just to get the equivalent ilevel reward in your weekly thing. I think you'd actually see some PvE'ers start to at least give PvP a shot if the rewards were on par, but it's just going to take so much more time and effort for someone who has never done it before to even get to the point where they *might* get something useful from a PvP match vs puggable pve content that it's never worth it for them.
Venruki’s post nailed one of the current PvP issues. However, going back to “tokens, ratings, etc.” is not (as it has been proved by experience) the right solution for the majority of the player base.

High Level rankings (let’s just play the 2k game here) are *not* easy to achieve for the mostly casual player base of WoW PvP. You could argue from your “2100 cr” all day long, but the thousands of players doing PvE content couldn’t care less (and therefore don’t participate) in PvP; this, in turn, makes PvP even more difficult to approach, considering the low quality of the rewards and how punishing is on healers. The smaller the player base, the harder for causals to do anything, for everybody left is “decent”. This is not bad, but it makes it even tougher on newcomers or someone trying to see what PvP is all about.

The honor talents not being available (and being < 1500 rating at the start) are two chores you have to go through (which I find very annoying). Try to arena without Clone (as a Resto Druid) (or without that tier in general).

All DPS’s need to do in this game, is being able to do two things at the same time (sadly, sometimes for some classes this isn’t even needed): Keep one player CCed/Peeled and DPS another.

The DPS part has gotten easier (most classes have a rotation of 2-5 buttons they constantly press). If you want to “pop cds”, you just need 2 buttons or sometimes just a macro that does it all for you. Most Orc/Reletnless/Adapt DPS won’t even care about trinket, for that is taken care of for them.

The CC part is more of a gray area. Some players just toss all CC at once (and still win), some others display an excellent chaining of events (in some cases, because they have to, think RMP), yet, once you learn how to keep one focus and one target, you can probably assume you got most of skill you need.

The truth is, arena games are all about 3 things:
1. Can you Run/Pop Defensives when you have to? Do you know when this is happening? Do you see this in the UI? Do you observe the enemy character and see his “animations” ? Do you look at the Debuffs? etc.

2. Can you CC in order to keep a chain (aka: don’t overlap 3 stuns). Also can you keep DRs in order?

3. Can you pop offensive CDs when you have to (either to put pressure, to kill, to peel, to make them use CDs’, etc. )

If you can do 2 out of 3, you can achieve 2k with most characters (hell, sometimes all you need is one of those) lol.

So let’s not pretend Arena/PvP is some magic black box that requires a PhD in Quantum Mechanics to play. WoW is an overwhelming old game for new/casual players, but once you grasp the core mechanics (the big rock paper scissor’s constant game that occurs on every GCD), the game becomes more predictable. Yes, it’s not a “script” driving the boss mechanics (do X until Y happens then do Z), but PvP encounters are typically “press Y when the player presses/does X to make him do Z so I can do XX).

To me, the MMR system is very punishing, for example. I can only play 1-5 hours a week (max), sometimes 0, sometimes 20. I can only play LFG, for I wouldn’t be able to have constant partners. That means as a DPS is mostly about “LF CHILL CAP” otherwise you rarely find partners… because your CR is always < 1800 every week.

As a Healer, tho, your life is different. You can chose to play with the “I press 1.2.3 + cool downs all the time” type of DPSs (and therefore run behind the DPS that is 800 yards away chasing a paladin with bubble while a Moonkin casts Full Moon on him, not before he free casted cyclone on you), or you can get picky, but then when you get picky, you’re faced with “the FOTM” comps, and it’s always the Healer’s fault. Remember this is LFG… the “only experience” a new player with a new account will be able to play with.

So… all in all, I think this game’s PvP shouldn’t be about iLevel. The infamous “race for progression” is treating iLevel as progression, and as Venruki said, it’s easier to just do PvE.

Remember when you saw a level 70 with a “tier 4” for example? That was “whoa!”, while you were farming the stupid mats to craft your gear… thanks to tailoring which took weeks to level… no thanks. That wasn’t good either :)

I’m too casual, I haven’t been above 2k in years, I’m not good anymore, this is a different game and I don’t really have the time, skills and dedication to reach its true potential, but I’ve done a LOT of random BG (my solution to being casual is to queue… wait 10 minutes while I watch something else, play a game when the q pops, then rinse and repeat), and the 870 gear I get is laughable. I just learned enchanting level 1 and disenchant it all.
Well-said, Ven! Agreed.

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