I Guess That's It, Night Elves are Dead

General Discussion
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12/02/2017 04:51 AMPosted by Tovi
Not all Horde want to be written as the good guys.

Make orcs savage brutes. Make the undead plague-crazy murderers. I want butt elves to be assassins with no ethics.

Give the OP what they want, Blizz, but also make the Horde the bad girls and boys once again. That hippy Thrall is playing house and we now have the leader for this.


See. This is important. It makes choices matter.

That is something that the developers have become terrified of. They are afraid to make the player's choices have consequences.

There should be consequences of choosing a "good" race or an "evil" race. Let's face it, sometimes evil actions are beneficial. Instead of running from that, the writers should embrace it. Just like being a good guy isn't always a boon. Sometimes it means being selfless when you would want to be selfish.

That doesn't mean good guys should always be doormats either. If anything, it means that when confronted with evil... they should become fierce and unflinching. Steadfast. A paladin should occasionally see something that stirs her to find the perpetrators and beat the everliving ^&*# out of them. Imagine being a paladin and seeing a household under siege by undead with cannibalized bodies strewn about. Calling upon her God and... getting an answer. "Destroy them. Bring the light of Tyr and grind their bones to dust. Make those that don't know fear - tremble."

Move your players. Make actions matter. Don't be afraid to let players be the bad guy either. It enriches the world and gives depth and meaning to the class stereotypes.
12/02/2017 04:51 AMPosted by Tovi
Not all Horde want to be written as the good guys.

Make orcs savage brutes. Make the undead plague-crazy murderers. I want butt elves to be assassins with no ethics.

Give the OP what they want, Blizz, but also make the Horde the bad girls and boys once again. That hippy Thrall is playing house and we now have the leader for this.


12/02/2017 04:55 AMPosted by Tovi
I'm glad we're attacking the night elves but I want them to fight back as the superior warriors we know they are.

GIVE ME A REAL FIGHT


Same feeling here.

I don't want political correctness that everybody is nice and good in their own way or something. I want them to have their race/faction identity and stand by such things, which means Orcs will try to conquer and Night Elves are going to try to wipe them out for desecrating their lands. Forsaken will plague and behave like a Scourge, while Humans will be sort of puritan-do-gooder-who must purge what they find evil. And we can not have that without both sides fighting properly and doing some serious damage to the other side here and there.

Unfortunately, I think all that is going to happen to Night Elves is, they'll pretend everything is fine because of those neutral areas, as usual, and the Alliance Night Elves will be just some refugee with nothing the player character to represent their presence. Writers' fault as usual.
12/02/2017 04:33 AMPosted by Berry
OP, are you "Elven Athena" from MMO-Champion?


Nope. Would I like what she posts there? ;)

12/02/2017 04:42 AMPosted by Kinetik
The problem is that the writers have gone from sensible people to pandering wafflers.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."

This is the case of the horde and alliance factions. They don't stand for anything. Their histories are meaningless, so they have no basis to draw lines in the sand over.

By denying each of these races their heritage, they have no sense of identity. Their gods and goddesses have been reduced to very inoffensive "magic" beings.

There is no sense of morality in this world anymore. Good and Evil is more than merely "right and wrong." It has spiritual connotations that modern game developers dare not tread upon, because it does something we have become indoctrinated into believing.

"There is no such thing as good or evil. Only shades of gray."

The person that believes that has no moral foundation. They are a ship lost at sea. They are like the poor World of Warcraft writers. Unable to find direction, unable to find solid land, they are ignorant of where they are going and even what they would do when they finally arrived.

It takes courage to identify evil in this world, and it takes a quality of character to have the moral certitude to stand for good and vanquish evil. The horde are evil. They are godless heathens that encroach upon and ultimately destroy all that they touch. They should be put to the sword and driven from the lands they've stolen. Not made treaties with.

The writers have done a horrible job with their own characters, because they've tried to write both sides as being justified. There is no justification for what the horde did to Draenor and ultimately Azeroth. "The devil made me do it" is no excuse. That's just more reason to burn them at the stake at every opportunity.


I think you hit the spot there.

The main problem with this whole grey thing is that they try to portray everything as grey, like somehow it is all the same or everything is relative.

I mean, races don't have identity because the stuff which is supposed to make them move and act are constantly pushed aside or justified as good (which ends up forcing the other side to accept such actions or end up portrayed as evil for any form of reprisal). The result is just a generic attempt at making everybody feel like a champion even though it is a nasty world out there with nasty people doing nasty things.

I'd say this is some sort of political correctness leaking into the game from the real world, or so to speak.

Each race/faction should have their own morals and notions of what is right, wrong, acceptable and justified. The conflict should stem from those actions, which are motivated by those notions which then results in these groups clashing against each other.

For example, Orcs should go for a conquering type, because that's what they do and believe it is fine, while Night Elves should go against them, for getting into their lands and destroying what is sacred to them.

Their actions and reactions need to be logical and coherent with their culture/beliefs, or else, we end up with Orcs invading and burning stuff, but Night Elves doing nothing but sitting out of the fight, due to neutrality, or just being outright killed, because the story is trying too hard to portray those Orcs as good.
12/02/2017 03:58 AMPosted by Cragganmore
12/02/2017 03:54 AMPosted by Kynaria
...*Kynaria waves her hand again, and this time the vines start entrenching through Cragganmore's mouth just as he utters the last word. The orc tries to fight them, but the effort goes in vain, as the plants advance inside his body and press against his internal organs*

Cragganmore likes kinky.

HAAHAAHHAH HAHA HA! Omg
I think I found another Orc poster I like! There really are only three.
You bring up a good point, it's not just elves that were ruined... it was orcs too.

Blizzard was so close to making the Horde what it should have been. Garrosh was a warmonger and he had no interest in working with the Alliance. He did have some morals but he wasn't a wuss like Thrall. Then they went and ruined him and ruined orcs. Fighting with themselves and their allies, making Garrosh crazy instead of driven, it was awful.

I don't even know what I'm doing on the Vindicator. I had to go deep into enemy territory to get on a ship with the enemy. I wish they would have had a separate way for the Horde to get to Argus. Imo, the Draenei should have attacked me the minute I stepped foot on shore.

I'm tired of the factions either standing down or working together because that's what the script says.
12/02/2017 05:50 AMPosted by Tovi
You bring up a good point, it's not just elves that were ruined... it was orcs too.

Blizzard was so close to making the Horde what it should have been. Garrosh was a warmonger and he had no interest in working with the Alliance. He did have some morals but he wasn't a wuss like Thrall. Then they went and ruined him and ruined orcs. Fighting with themselves and their allies, making Garrosh crazy instead of driven, it was awful.

I don't even know what I'm doing on the Vindicator. I had to go deep into enemy territory to get on a ship with the enemy. I wish they would have had a separate way for the Horde to get to Argus. Imo, the Draenei should have attacked me the minute I stepped foot on shore.

I'm tired of the factions either standing down or working together because that's what the script says.


Warlocks and mages from the horde could have captured some draenei and learned of the plans. Then, using their souls created their own "dark portal" to Argus. Boom. Now you have a conduit to Argus.
12/02/2017 04:55 AMPosted by Luph
Can anyone point me to any writing in WoW that has been good?

Almost everything to do with the pandaren.
MoP had the best lore original to WoW in this games history.
Blizzard's writing on the whole is pretty lacking.

They've nailed world building but fall flat on pretty much everything else.
Listen people, I don't really believe that the wow devs are so passionate about this game. Did you see the interviews at blizzcon from some of the streamers? The Devs seemed like they were just ready to get it over with so they can get paid and go home. Correct me if I'm wrong but that kind of attitude makes for bad game and story development. Maybe they are just jaded? Maybe they outgrew the game. Maybe we need a new game. Maybe I'm a little drunk.
12/02/2017 05:50 AMPosted by Tovi
You bring up a good point, it's not just elves that were ruined... it was orcs too.

Blizzard was so close to making the Horde what it should have been. Garrosh was a warmonger and he had no interest in working with the Alliance. He did have some morals but he wasn't a wuss like Thrall. Then they went and ruined him and ruined orcs. Fighting with themselves and their allies, making Garrosh crazy instead of driven, it was awful.

I don't even know what I'm doing on the Vindicator. I had to go deep into enemy territory to get on a ship with the enemy. I wish they would have had a separate way for the Horde to get to Argus. Imo, the Draenei should have attacked me the minute I stepped foot on shore.

I'm tired of the factions either standing down or working together because that's what the script says.


I hate when the factions are treated has homogeneous blobs. Different races in the factions should act differently. And draenei are not and have never been a hardcore Alliance race, they've always been on the fringe mostly doing their own thing.
12/02/2017 06:00 AMPosted by Adelphie
12/02/2017 05:50 AMPosted by Tovi
You bring up a good point, it's not just elves that were ruined... it was orcs too.

Blizzard was so close to making the Horde what it should have been. Garrosh was a warmonger and he had no interest in working with the Alliance. He did have some morals but he wasn't a wuss like Thrall. Then they went and ruined him and ruined orcs. Fighting with themselves and their allies, making Garrosh crazy instead of driven, it was awful.

I don't even know what I'm doing on the Vindicator. I had to go deep into enemy territory to get on a ship with the enemy. I wish they would have had a separate way for the Horde to get to Argus. Imo, the Draenei should have attacked me the minute I stepped foot on shore.

I'm tired of the factions either standing down or working together because that's what the script says.


I hate when the factions are treated has homogeneous blobs. Different races in the factions should act differently. And draenei are not and have never been a hardcore Alliance race, they've always been on the fringe mostly doing their own thing.


I don't mean attack me because "hur dur u horde me alliance now die!" I've been at war with the Alliance for years and that includes the Draenei. I've killed your kind. According to lore, I'm infamous.

Why would your guards allow someone with my reputation near your leader armed?

And this is what I'm talking about. I hate working with you guys.
WOW and the RTS have two completely different styles of story telling and the lore has suffered in WOW along with the racial identity of the characters because of it. In the RTS they told the story of each race as a distinct faction to itself with its own history and lore even within the context of the horde vs alliance. Therefore in the RTS, there were various missions and campaigns covering all the different factions and races in the game including the legion. Not to mention each race had its own command structure and units that fought together as a group not as some mixed army under human command. This carried over well into vanilla as each race has its own starting zones and quests to flesh out the lore and identity of the race as a faction. But as time went on that distinction between racial identity and faction identity went out the window. Most races stopped have race and class specific quests in vanilla. And instead all quests are faction based. And of course many of the stories are divided on faction lines. So the identity of most of the in game races has stagnated and not moved forward that much, aside from some noteable examples.

The only way to fix that would be to add race specific quests and story lines in every expansion over and above the whole faction story line. There should also be class specific story lines and quests as well. But that is probably not going to happen. They aren't even giving us unique starting areas for the new allied races AFAIK.

And on top of that adding new playable factions at this point is unlikely. Blizzard would have to totally rework the entire game to fit in new factions with different quest lines and story lines separate from the main Horde vs Alliance story. As it is making parallel story lines for every expansion is already breaking the lore in many ways (see broken shore). And players certainly don't want to be left out of anything so that is why no matter what happens in any expansion, the horde and alliance BOTH have to have equal amounts of quests and stories doing the exact same thing because players would be complain about being left out if they didn't. And I can't imagine how blizzard would keep that up with more than 2 factions. Because in reality everybody doesn't have to be in the broken shore for them to participate in the content. Some quests and stories can and should be taking place elsewhere. But I cant see Blizzard turning away from the faction formula of story telling any time soon, even if it destroys the identity of many races in game.
12/02/2017 06:34 AMPosted by Willowvine
Not to mention each race had its own command structure and units that fought together as a group not as some mixed army under human command.


Wouldn't even call mixed. It's pretty much just Humans with a handful of others from other races. We didn't even get to see a Night Elf face in BfA cinematic.

12/02/2017 06:34 AMPosted by Willowvine
The only way to fix that would be to add race specific quests and story lines in every expansion over and above the whole faction story line. There should also be class specific story lines and quests as well. But that is probably not going to happen. They aren't even giving us unique starting areas for the new allied races AFAIK.


Before BfA announcement, a load of people were thinking about race specific questlines much like how Class Hall campaigns work. I think it's pretty feasible. It's just that Blizzard hates anything besides Orcs and Humans, everything has to orbit these races since they warp space and time around them.

12/02/2017 06:34 AMPosted by Willowvine
But I cant see Blizzard turning away from the faction formula of story telling any time soon, even if it destroys the identity of many races in game.


I don't even think the problem is the formula of 2 factions. The problem is the focus on Humans and Orcs. Everything something happens, it has to have either Humans or Orcs leading it. Night Elves could easily have armies fighting just like they did back in WC3 and have the other races follow them into conflict, but that would hurt the writers feelings since they love those 2 cursed races so much.
12/02/2017 05:06 AMPosted by Kinetik
12/02/2017 04:51 AMPosted by Tovi
Not all Horde want to be written as the good guys.

Make orcs savage brutes. Make the undead plague-crazy murderers. I want butt elves to be assassins with no ethics.

Give the OP what they want, Blizz, but also make the Horde the bad girls and boys once again. That hippy Thrall is playing house and we now have the leader for this.


See. This is important. It makes choices matter.

That is something that the developers have become terrified of. They are afraid to make the player's choices have consequences.

There should be consequences of choosing a "good" race or an "evil" race. Let's face it, sometimes evil actions are beneficial. Instead of running from that, the writers should embrace it. Just like being a good guy isn't always a boon. Sometimes it means being selfless when you would want to be selfish.

That doesn't mean good guys should always be doormats either. If anything, it means that when confronted with evil... they should become fierce and unflinching. Steadfast. A paladin should occasionally see something that stirs her to find the perpetrators and beat the everliving ^&*# out of them. Imagine being a paladin and seeing a household under siege by undead with cannibalized bodies strewn about. Calling upon her God and... getting an answer. "Destroy them. Bring the light of Tyr and grind their bones to dust. Make those that don't know fear - tremble."

Move your players. Make actions matter. Don't be afraid to let players be the bad guy either. It enriches the world and gives depth and meaning to the class stereotypes.


Good and evil in a war for survival is subjective.

The alliance and their leaders have committed war crimes as well and can challenge the horde leaders for most criminal.

The only cry here is Alliance want to believe they have a holy cause as idolaters and zealots of a crusade. Makes them no better than any race or nation in human history to wage war. There is no clearing indulgence for the alliance and I hope they burn for their atrocities and pompousness.

Death to Genn and his radicals. They will be the true evil to come.
Night Elves were over when they could become mages. That really told you how Blizz was going to handle lore and writing from that point forward.
I agree with everything you said except for the part where you said that they shouldn't have been in the alliance. I like my night elf and I like the alliance.
The night elves were seriously softened WoW. They served as the fierce and primal part of the Alliance to counter the Horde. They used to be brutal amazon-esque warriors that left the orcs quaking in their boots. Even Grom didn't recognize them as elves because they were "too tall and far too savage".

The night elves shouldn't be as neutral as they are. They should flat out hate the Horde for killing Cenarius in WC3 and trying to take their trees in Cata. I'm not even big on night elves and I feel that they've been utterly neutered over the years.
12/02/2017 08:53 AMPosted by Howlback
The night elves were seriously softened WoW. They served as the fierce and primal part of the Alliance to counter the Horde. They used to be brutal amazon-esque warriors that left the orcs quaking in their boots. Even Grom didn't recognize them as elves because they were "too tall and far too savage".

The night elves shouldn't be as neutral as they are. They should flat out hate the Horde for killing Cenarius in WC3 and trying to take their trees in Cata. I'm not even big on night elves and I feel that they've been utterly neutered over the years.

And malfurion is still neutral for some reason.
12/02/2017 08:54 AMPosted by Althenar
12/02/2017 08:53 AMPosted by Howlback
The night elves were seriously softened WoW. They served as the fierce and primal part of the Alliance to counter the Horde. They used to be brutal amazon-esque warriors that left the orcs quaking in their boots. Even Grom didn't recognize them as elves because they were "too tall and far too savage".

The night elves shouldn't be as neutral as they are. They should flat out hate the Horde for killing Cenarius in WC3 and trying to take their trees in Cata. I'm not even big on night elves and I feel that they've been utterly neutered over the years.

And malfurion is still neutral for some reason.


He and Thrall can go be neutral together and hug some trees and rocks far, far away. They were great in WCIII but have really influenced WoW's story in a negative way, IMO.
12/02/2017 07:38 AMPosted by Ksamil
The alliance and their leaders have committed war crimes as well and can challenge the horde leaders for most criminal.

I can't really think of anything an Alliance leader has done that would be considered a war crime, relative to what a Horde leader has done or otherwise.

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