It's 2017, not 2005

Classic Discussion
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12/07/2017 09:04 AMPosted by Magikcool
Again, you are assuming you know why we do or don't want something.


Re-read my statements, nowhere have I ever assumed what you or others like you are saying. This is a forum, it's meant to be a discussion, why do you treat it as if what I or anyone say is absolute, includes absolutely everyone and it MUST be attacked no matter the cost?
12/07/2017 09:12 AMPosted by Eaglesgift
If auto loot is such a trivial thing, why are you so invested in having it added to the vanilla game?


I'm not vested in having it? Is explaining my position and way of thinking being vested in something? You are the kind of person that is going to drive this community into the ground. Don't attack people for having an opinion or a conversation just because you don't want to.
12/07/2017 09:06 AMPosted by Amideus
12/07/2017 09:00 AMPosted by Jentso
I included it as a hypothetical, but the fact remains that the time sink and precedent for change are perfectly valid reasons to not include auto loot.


It's true that one could argue that looting each individual corpse significantly contributes to the game's environment and adds to a depth and immersion factor that original wow was going for.

I'm of the camp that auto loot doesn't significantly change the game in any meaningful way, is an honestly invisible change once it has been made, and is only really noticed by people today because of the fact it's a toggle in the settings.

At the end of the day I feel that it's one of those technical limitations that doesn't impact gameplay in a meaningful way that could be added as a toggle again. Some people might want the game to be more immersive for them personally. I just think it's too small of a change to be contributing to that.

Unlike the quest helper, where the entire process of the questing is meant to be an investigative experience of exploring the world, auto loot versus individual loot doesn't serve such a purpose. It doesn't push you from point A to point B, it doesn't integrate you into the experience or make you pay more attention to the landscape around you. All it really does is to be an artificial and tedious process that adds annoyance to your experience, not time.

It would make more sense if the looting was some kind of game feature intentionally meant to gate you between content or something.


Well, we aren't going to convince each other. But what I will say is I've been on a classic game spree lately. I just played Diablo 2 after endless hours in D3/POE and I was hating the potion system but when I finally beat the game it felt really good. I remember that feeling reaching certain milestones in Vanilla WoW. It may or may not be an invisible change. But when it's uncertain, especially when revisiting a classic, isn't the best bet to just leave it alone?
12/07/2017 03:19 AMPosted by Ravenblast
If people don't want ANY of the QOL fixed by addons, then I say we also disallow ALL addons... that means no quest helper, no mobinfo, no Auctioneer, no Mail addons, no unit frames, no Boss Mods, no healbot, no decursive, etc.

My argument is that, if we are going to all have addons, why not just make them part of the game... Allow you to toggle them off for your "pure" experience because these should not affect you one bit.


Bingo !

I've seen pretty neat add-ons over the course of the years. There is one that concatenate all bags into one huge inventory, another that receives all mails from the mailbox in one clic, another that showed you where to go for quest (now fancy that)... there where even a few that where border-line cheating to a non-user of that mod, like that one that highlights all ressources on the minimap (also fancy that, it was made stock).

I think ppl are just trying to capitalize on the fact that ppl don't like going third-party and hence keeping a Huge advantage on them. I know some ppl like that in RL, so pretty sure for some of them that IS the point.
12/07/2017 09:10 AMPosted by Ravenblast
12/07/2017 08:59 AMPosted by Kalemne
The same can be said for many in the QoL crowd, problem is you're lumping everyone into one group


I'm calling purists the people who are saying change nothing. And so far, from what this thread and others show is that they are not even willing to argue why they think it should be left untouched.

Classic Purist responses include but not limited to:
-I don't trust blizzard
- don't play
- not for you
- it will ruin the game

Yet none of these types of responses are actual arguments.

Blizz said it themselves that there is a discussion to be had about classic, so why are the purists so opposed to discussion?

Why can't we have a civil discussion without logical fallacies and irrational posts? Why do people always try to shut people up instead of providing a better counter argument... in most cases, they cannot.

It's like in real life, when you lose an argument, you resort to ad-hominem and logical fallacies.


your only arguments are:

-My changes are good for everyone (no explanation as to why they are needed, just are)
- game needs to be changed to suit my needs
-my changes wont effect anyone ( assuming to know what everyone want and why)
- it wont ruin the game( in your opinion, and no one else's matters)
-Im older and know better ( willing to bet im older than you if you played vanilla in college, unless you were a professional student, which wouldn't surprise me by the self entitlement shown, and shear disrespect from your comments to millenials)

Plus there have been multiple examples of why we don't want the changes, The necessary time sinks, the economy, have you even been reading your own thread? you want civil discussion, yet in your OP you called everyone silly and assumed you knew every reason why people don't want it. Great way to start a topic, I know whats best for you and your silly if you don't agree.....
12/07/2017 09:18 AMPosted by Jentso
But when it's uncertain, especially when revisiting a classic, isn't the best bet to just leave it alone?


Not always and not really. Every issue should be taken on the merit of the issue. You could be right in the auto loot having a contributing or significant factor in the game, or I could be in it being a meaningless change with no impact. But to say that we shouldn't at least discuss it is VERY VERY wrong.

Remember, me and you aren't the ones making the final decisions on what does and does not get into Classic. We're just talking about the features, or whatever, and stating our case on how we view it for others to see and make decisions on.
12/07/2017 09:13 AMPosted by Brisey
And how can one really argue against such trivial things to begin with, what I want clearly makes less sense. It would make more sense just to have these things built in the game. The thing is, with each of these changes I feel as though I am less involved, and the game is performing more of the work for me. I am pretty lazy, to be fair.. but I still like to feel like I am part of the game, even if it is just in trivial ways.


I liked your post, but again, how you feel is irrelevant in the grand scheme, the discussion to be had is twofold
1. what version of WoW are we going to have and
2. what changes if any will benefit the game in the short and long run.

Some of the early game designs were just bad in my opinion and making the changes is something that would simply improve the game. However what to add and what not to add is key here. To me a few things were the autoloot, auto dismount and such. Small trivial things that are easily added (legit a few lines of code) that you can toggle on or off. Why settle for a subpar version of what could be made better, regardless of how minor it is?

EDIT: My point is that looting individual mobs and dismounting (for example) is not enjoyable gameplay, nor does it add any value to the game, it's just a system that was made because the devs didn't think of it at the time. Mob HP actually adds to my enjoyment and is positive for gameplay because then I can strategize how I approach an enemy at a glance. There needs to be a clear understanding of what makes good and bad gameplay.
12/07/2017 09:24 AMPosted by Ravenblast
how you feel is irrelevant in the grand scheme


That's not true at all. A lot of things in vanilla are meant to elicit feeling and reaction. The quests and lack of markers on the map is one of them. Not everything is based on feeling, but some stuff for sure is. Sense of scale, feeling of immersion, etc. Those WILL matter in different cases.
12/07/2017 09:23 AMPosted by Magikcool
your only arguments are:

-My changes are good for everyone (no explanation as to why they are needed, just are)
- game needs to be changed to suit my needs
-my changes wont effect anyone ( assuming to know what everyone want and why)
- it wont ruin the game( in your opinion, and no one else's matters)
-Im older and know better ( willing to bet im older than you if you played vanilla in college, unless you were a professional student, which wouldn't surprise me by the self entitlement shown, and shear disrespect from your comments to millenials)

Plus there have been multiple examples of why we don't want the changes, The necessary time sinks, the economy, have you even been reading your own thread? you want civil discussion, yet in your OP you called everyone silly and assumed you knew every reason why people don't want it. Great way to start a topic, I know whats best for you and your silly if you don't agree.....


The amount of projection in this post gave me cancer, I never said what I say is correct, I am discussing potential changes that would make the game better. I call people who make silly arguments silly, how is that an issue?

If you followed the thread you would see that my views on certain things actually changed. Amideus made a very compelling case against a quest helper type addition (I was on the fence anyways, but I now agree that that should be left to an addon and not built in game).
12/07/2017 09:18 AMPosted by Jentso
12/07/2017 09:06 AMPosted by Amideus
...

It's true that one could argue that looting each individual corpse significantly contributes to the game's environment and adds to a depth and immersion factor that original wow was going for.

I'm of the camp that auto loot doesn't significantly change the game in any meaningful way, is an honestly invisible change once it has been made, and is only really noticed by people today because of the fact it's a toggle in the settings.

At the end of the day I feel that it's one of those technical limitations that doesn't impact gameplay in a meaningful way that could be added as a toggle again. Some people might want the game to be more immersive for them personally. I just think it's too small of a change to be contributing to that.

Unlike the quest helper, where the entire process of the questing is meant to be an investigative experience of exploring the world, auto loot versus individual loot doesn't serve such a purpose. It doesn't push you from point A to point B, it doesn't integrate you into the experience or make you pay more attention to the landscape around you. All it really does is to be an artificial and tedious process that adds annoyance to your experience, not time.

It would make more sense if the looting was some kind of game feature intentionally meant to gate you between content or something.


Well, we aren't going to convince each other. But what I will say is I've been on a classic game spree lately. I just played Diablo 2 after endless hours in D3/POE and I was hating the potion system but when I finally beat the game it felt really good. I remember that feeling reaching certain milestones in Vanilla WoW. It may or may not be an invisible change. But when it's uncertain, especially when revisiting a classic, isn't the best bet to just leave it alone?


So my wife and i are feeling the same thing lately in WOW. We have nothing to do raids are done for the week, and so on and so on....Back in vanilla there was always something to do.
12/07/2017 09:30 AMPosted by Ravenblast
12/07/2017 09:23 AMPosted by Magikcool
your only arguments are:

-My changes are good for everyone (no explanation as to why they are needed, just are)
- game needs to be changed to suit my needs
-my changes wont effect anyone ( assuming to know what everyone want and why)
- it wont ruin the game( in your opinion, and no one else's matters)
-Im older and know better ( willing to bet im older than you if you played vanilla in college, unless you were a professional student, which wouldn't surprise me by the self entitlement shown, and shear disrespect from your comments to millenials)

Plus there have been multiple examples of why we don't want the changes, The necessary time sinks, the economy, have you even been reading your own thread? you want civil discussion, yet in your OP you called everyone silly and assumed you knew every reason why people don't want it. Great way to start a topic, I know whats best for you and your silly if you don't agree.....


The amount of projection in this post gave me cancer, I never said what I say is correct, I am discussing potential changes that would make the game better. I call people who make silly arguments silly, how is that an issue?

If you followed the thread you would see that my views on certain things actually changed. Amideus made a very compelling case against a quest helper type addition (I was on the fence anyways, but I now agree that that should be left to an addon and not built in game).

The only reason you want to see hp bars is to make the game easier. If it doesn't make that much of a difference like you say it doesn't, then just get an add on to do it. Otherwise quit trying to lower the difficulty of the game. You people ruined wow once, you're not going to do it again
12/07/2017 09:26 AMPosted by Amideus
That's not true at all. A lot of things in vanilla are meant to elicit feeling and reaction. The quests and lack of markers on the map is one of them. Not everything is based on feeling, but some stuff for sure is. Sense of scale, feeling of immersion, etc. Those WILL matter in different cases.


I agree, what I meant by that in the grand scheme, your personal feeling on what is best is irrelevant and only what is objectively better should be considered in the final decision.
12/07/2017 09:31 AMPosted by Pujol
You people ruined wow once, you're not going to do it again


I ruined WoW... I'm sorry =(

I'll go back to LFR now

*cries in the corner*
Classic will be only classic if they do not change anything. Im sorry, but all the things that made wow back then are all the things that people want to change, but if you make one single change...the looting system, the spawn rates and locations of node, the whatever it is, one thing will change classic. it has to be 100% to be classic.
A great game is timeless. Vanilla WoW is still one of, if not the best, MMO ever released.

Every expansion has made the game worse.....to the crap that is Legion.

If yer happy with all the QoL in Legion then Classic is not for you.

Legion is that way ====>>>
12/07/2017 09:23 AMPosted by Magikcool
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I'm calling purists the people who are saying change nothing. And so far, from what this thread and others show is that they are not even willing to argue why they think it should be left untouched.

Classic Purist responses include but not limited to:
-I don't trust blizzard
- don't play
- not for you
- it will ruin the game

Yet none of these types of responses are actual arguments.

Blizz said it themselves that there is a discussion to be had about classic, so why are the purists so opposed to discussion?

Why can't we have a civil discussion without logical fallacies and irrational posts? Why do people always try to shut people up instead of providing a better counter argument... in most cases, they cannot.

It's like in real life, when you lose an argument, you resort to ad-hominem and logical fallacies.


your only arguments are:

-My changes are good for everyone (no explanation as to why they are needed, just are)
- game needs to be changed to suit my needs
-my changes wont effect anyone ( assuming to know what everyone want and why)
- it wont ruin the game( in your opinion, and no one else's matters)
-Im older and know better ( willing to bet im older than you if you played vanilla in college, unless you were a professional student, which wouldn't surprise me by the self entitlement shown, and shear disrespect from your comments to millenials)

Plus there have been multiple examples of why we don't want the changes, The necessary time sinks, the economy, have you even been reading your own thread? you want civil discussion, yet in your OP you called everyone silly and assumed you knew every reason why people don't want it. Great way to start a topic, I know whats best for you and your silly if you don't agree.....


I've been trying to get him to expand like 2 pages ago but he's just seeking for content that he can only articulate and attempt to shut it down based on his... inane ideology.

And it doesn't matter how old he is or what his records are, it's about the capability to opening up and understanding one another based on their perspective and where its trajecting. That's something people don't learn in college.
12/07/2017 02:48 AMPosted by Ravenblast
12/07/2017 02:43 AMPosted by Faydeh
I got a question for the trolls.

Why do you want to play on a !@#$ty, unbalanced, grindy, ruthless and with crap mechanics classic server when you could play on an "optimized, improved and supported" (what you ask classic to be changed into) version of WoW aka RETAIL?

rly maeks me think


We don't. The classic movement is about 2 things, Nostalgia and Community.

The QOL changes I advocate for are only the things we fixed through addons/3rd party support, I would never play classic wow if a LFD queue system were to be implemented, or changing the classes so that they are all homogenized like in legion.

I'm ok with exploit and bug/lag fixes.


And yet, the exploits are the things that I liked to find, like getting into Hyjal. So who's right?
12/07/2017 09:33 AMPosted by Mocoso
Classic will be only classic if they do not change anything. Im sorry, but all the things that made wow back then are all the things that people want to change, but if you make one single change...the looting system, the spawn rates and locations of node, the whatever it is, one thing will change classic. it has to be 100% to be classic.


But why must Classic be 100% Vanilla, why not make it better? Here's an analogy to better illustrate my point:

Imagine that you have an ice cream shop that only sells 2 kinds of ice cream Chocolate and Vanilla. But the thing is your Vanilla ice cream is not the most popular, everyone seems to like chocolate and so they mostly buy that one. So now you think "Hey I will stop making Vanilla ice cream and just focus on making Chocolate". But that got boring and it's hard to compete with other ice cream shops, so you start adding a bunch of things to your ice cream, things like candies, sprinkles, fruit and whatnot so that you can customize you ice cream and make your customers have a better experience.

However, some people still preferred the Vanilla Ice cream and ask for you to sell that one back because it was the best to them, they went and tried other ice cream shop's vanilla ice cream but nothing came close to what they remembered to be the good vanilla ice cream. So you say ok, we will do that, but you can only have vanilla Ice cream on it's own, you cannot add any of the candies and sprinkles to the ice cream because you wanted the vanilla ice cream to come back and the vanilla ice cream you will get.

Alright, I know this is a silly analogy, but you can clearly see the illogical reasoning, you can have the vanilla ice cream, but why not add to it? You don;t have to add it all, just what you think would make it better.
12/07/2017 09:44 AMPosted by Meiyokazee
I've been trying to get him to expand like 2 pages ago but he's just seeking for content that he can only articulate and attempt to shut it down based on his... inane ideology.

And it doesn't matter how old he is or what his records are, it's about the capability to opening up and understanding one another based on their perspective and where its trajecting. That's something people don't learn in college.


No you are just a simple minded troll, I would entertain your posts if you actually were contributing something worth discussing... hint hint ;)
12/07/2017 09:51 AMPosted by Ravenblast
12/07/2017 09:33 AMPosted by Mocoso
Classic will be only classic if they do not change anything. Im sorry, but all the things that made wow back then are all the things that people want to change, but if you make one single change...the looting system, the spawn rates and locations of node, the whatever it is, one thing will change classic. it has to be 100% to be classic.


But why must Classic be 100% Vanilla, why not make it better? Here's an analogy to better illustrate my point:

Imagine that you have an ice cream shop that only sells 2 kinds of ice cream Chocolate and Vanilla. But the thing is your Vanilla ice cream is not the most popular, everyone seems to like chocolate and so they mostly buy that one. So now you think "Hey I will stop making Vanilla ice cream and just focus on making Chocolate". But that got boring and it's hard to compete with other ice cream shops, so you start adding a bunch of things to your ice cream, things like candies, sprinkles, fruit and whatnot so that you can customize you ice cream and make your customers have a better experience.

However, some people still preferred the Vanilla Ice cream and ask for you to sell that one back because it was the best to them, they went and tried other ice cream shop's vanilla ice cream but nothing came close to what they remembered to be the good vanilla ice cream. So you say ok, we will do that, but you can only have vanilla Ice cream on it's own, you cannot add any of the candies and sprinkles to the ice cream because you wanted the vanilla ice cream to come back and the vanilla ice cream you will get.

Alright, I know this is a silly analogy, but you can clearly see the illogical reasoning, you can have the vanilla ice cream, but why not add to it? You don;t have to add it all, just what you think would make it better.


EXACTLY, we don't want the sprinkles, they detract from the awesome vanilla flavour we missed so much. It was the candy and sprinkles that changed the game, the more topping that cam out, the bigger more confused mess the game became. Now all we have is a sprinkle shop with the icecream as a second thought, All we really want is the good old Vanilla Ice cream back that we have missed all these years.

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