PvP gearing is bad and not fun (HELP/xpost)

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Xpost from arena forums for visibility, OP here (credit and thanks to venruki):

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759598339?page=1

12/10/2017 11:02 AMPosted by Venruki
Hello friends, I am writing this post due to recent concerns regarding PvP gear.

Apologize in advance for the massive use of the terms "PvP gear" and "PvE gear".

The only advantage PvP gear has in PvP or any other aspect of the game is its item level. PvE set bonuses and trinkets are still far superior in both high end raiding and high end mythic dungeons. This makes sense, high end raiding and dungeons should have beneficial gear for their type of game play.

The issue I'm having is now PvE gear is both easier to obtain and higher item level then its PvP counterpart. Gearing has essentially become irrelevant in PvP and has really taken a back seat this expansion. As a result, its feel like participation is down more than ever.

I'll give you a bit of an anecdote: I've been playing the game since vanilla and haven't really dipped my feet in much PvE content since early WOTLK. This expansion with +10/+15 chests rewards from Mythic+, I decided it was worth my time to complete this task weekly. I didn't feel like I was wasting my time and ended up enjoying the content as a way to progress my character. As a result I've come to really enjoy this type of content and now participate in Mythic raiding as well. If there wasn't that initial incentive to try the content and feel good about getting gear, I never would of done it in the first place.

With that in mind I'd like to now compare ways to gear in PvP content vs PvE content. Strictly in terms of item level here's a list from worst to best.

845 From normal dungeons
870 Random battlegrounds
885 Mythic +0
900 Crafting with blood of sargeras
900 Chest from winning a brawl once every two weeks.
910 Reliquished
915 LFR Antorus
925 LFR Argus
930 Normal Antorus
930 Rare drop from being 2400 rated in arena and winning a match.
940 Guaranteed from every mythic +15
940 Weekly PvP cap for being 2000 rated in arena.
940 Normal Argus
945 Heroic Antorus
950 Weekly PvP cap for being 2400 rated in arena.
955 Heroic Argus
960 Mythic Antorus & Weekly chest from m+ 15
970 Mythic Argus

These aren't the only ways of gearing but most.

For a new or casual player it's easy to see why gearing in PvE is not only much more rewarding but also guaranteed.

Do you know how many times I've heard my PvP buddies say "Lets go get our weekly +15 done" compared to my PvE friends saying "Lets go get 2400 rating so we can get our weekly cap done!". Even if you completely disregard the difficulty of achieving that rating in PvP, there's a monumental time difference in the two tasks, they're not even comparable. And yet, the weekly chest is still higher item level.

A reasonable item level to compete at higher end PvP and PvE is around 940.
Anyone aiming for this goal wouldn't waste their time PvP.

Reminder:

940 Guaranteed from every mythic +15 (GUARANTEED FOR COMPLETING, NOT EVEN IN TIME)
940 Weekly PvP cap for being 2000 rated in arena. (ONCE A WEEK)
940 Normal Argus (ONCE A WEEK)
945 Heroic Antorus (10 BOSSES A WEEK)
950 Weekly PvP cap for being 2400 rated in arena. (ONCE A WEEK)
955 Heroic Argus (ONCE A WEEK)
960 Mythic Antorus (10 BOSSES A WEEK) & Weekly chest from m+ 15 (ONCE A WEEK)
970 Mythic Argus (ONCE A WEEK)

Here's my WW monks armory: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/tichondrius/venfuki

I've played 219 games of arena this season at roughly 2500 MMR & 2400 CR. So far this season I've received 0 upgrades. The only pieces of PvP gear that remain for me are 2 pieces of elite warforged, something most players would never have access to. What's really disheartening is this problem is even worse for casual, low rated and mid tier PvPers.

People should feel incentivized to play all aspects of WoW. Currently PvP gear has taken a massive back seat and as a result participation and interest feels lower than ever.

Am I alone in feeling this way?
slightly on topic due to it being PvP gear related, but for the Gladiator gear now that it's been all but removed from the world quests, is there a specific rating in Arena/RBGs that you'd need to be to get them to drop? i tried doing casual random BGs on my MW monk and i usually do pretty well (2nd/top healing, less than 3 deaths, usually get a handful of objectives like base capping or flag returns/capture) but i've only gotten one piece of Gladiator gear but i really like the way it looks and want to know if there's a faster way to get it.
Just for reference, the bottom of the leaderboard is currently in the high 1600's. That means that people will have to be well into rival or likely even duelist range to ensure a one-time weekly reward equal to that of one drop from normal Antorus.

My personal experience queueing between 1700-1800 this week (which is currently within rival/top 10% of players) resulted in my non-weekly bonus loot drops being 910 or 900 ilevel. LFR Antorus is currently dropping 915 loot.

In my opinion, the base ilevel of arena/rbg drops need to be increased, and the incremental increases by rating also need to be increased in order to make PvP rewards valuable enough to get people to participate.
Linking original post url for others/Blizzard to see the discussion by other players on that thread also.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759598339
Gear is negligible in PvP and they don't want raiders to feel like they need to do PvP to gear up faster.

Probably should have thought about that before everyone jumped on the PvP templates bandwagon.
PvP templates.


These are good. RNG gearing is meh, but templates should definitely stay. Bring back points and have template sets that you can purchase imo.
Just take the perspective of your average PvE player who does lfr, normal, maybe some heroic, probably some M+. If your primary driver in playing the game is character progression and you've never PvP'ed before, why in the world would you start now? Even if you're interested in the idea of PvP, there are just too many other things that provide a better reward for a lot less investment.

Hence the problem we have now where the pool of people participating in PvP is getting smaller and smaller every season. It's creating a cycle where it's actually getting harder for new players to start because a higher and higher percentage of remaining pool are the players with a lot more experience in PvP, making the experience in my first paragraph that much less worth it. If you have to get into the top 10% of players just to get something once per week that *might* be useful to you if it forges correctly, you're just not going to do that instead of something like a M+ run that you can complete in an hour or less with minimal coordination or preparation.
While nothing Blizzard has done has really helped the PvP side of the game, the pool of PvP players is getting smaller and smaller because people are leaving for real competitive games like League and Overwatch.
PvP is bad and not fun.

Not to mention out dated (something like no new BG in years, however a new 1 coming in BfA), un-balanced, and as you said, rewards are underwhelming.
12/11/2017 09:49 AMPosted by Blaylock
something like no new BG in years


Brawls are new. Though they should be every week. We have enough BGs tbh.
IMO, step number a for blizzard is some kind of communication. It seems like we just get what we're given with no real explanation in terms of this kind of stuff. Regardless of the feedback given about gearing (and classes, and elite sets, and pruning, etc.), we never really get any back and forth for pvp issues.
Power disparities should not exist in PvP. You shouldn't have to farm ilvl, Artifact power, or Honor talents. The only difference between two teams should be skill, not who farmed the most combat advantages. (That includes WPvP. I don't enjoy its present incarnation.)

We should either apply PvP templates to WPVP (and completely negate the ilvl bonus), or bring back Dual-ilvl PvP gear.

PvP needs rewards, but those could be cosmetic. Like various recolors of Vicious War mounts or old armor sets.

I don't think PvP gear needs an ilvl boost. That'll just make unrated PvPers and PvErs inclined to participate in Rated PvP but not enjoy it. Rated PvP is unpopular for a variety of reasons, such as difficulty in finding strong or committed partners and narrow-minded ideas about spec viability. Blizzard should learn from Ashran's loot boxes and the MOP cloak questline BGs - it's not good to advertise content to an uninterested audience, it just makes them feel penalized for not participating in content they dislike.

TL:DR Let's remove gear's influence in PvP completely. That way it doesn't matter what ilvl Mythic Raiders are getting, it will have no advantage. PvP should use cosmetic items like mounts and mogs as incentives and rewards.
12/11/2017 12:40 PMPosted by Yagarr
PvP needs rewards, but those could be cosmetic. Like various recolors of Vicious War mounts or old armor sets.


1) PvP rewards should not be cosmetic, stop giving Pvp players bull!@#$ drops, if I want to play 2v2/3v3/Rbgs for an hour instead of running a dungeon or grinding out world quests we should be compensated from the same loot as the pve community.

2) If PVP has no stat advantages, why not give us dungeon/raid quality gear instead of constant versatility gear. If I go off on a wild hare and want to do a mythic+ or raid I want my gear to not completely suck.

Even the "lore" on this is bad, why would you give a paladin a DK/Warrior helmet as a reward for a contest between allies or faction enemies, its not like I'm looting it from their corpse.
12/11/2017 01:22 PMPosted by Espressa
1) PvP rewards should not be cosmetic, stop giving Pvp players bull!@#$ drops, if I want to play 2v2/3v3/Rbgs for an hour instead of running a dungeon or grinding out world quests we should be compensated from the same loot as the pve community.

2) If PVP has no stat advantages, why not give us dungeon/raid quality gear instead of constant versatility gear. If I go off on a wild hare and want to do a mythic+ or raid I want my gear to not completely suck.


If you want to PvE, then earn your ilvl through PvE.

That's how it used to be.

Additionally, if you wanted to PvP, then you'd earn your ilvl through PvP.
But we could just scrap that process and make gear irrelevant in PvP completely so there is no barrier to entry at all!

Ideally:

If you spend an hour doing 3v3 or whatever you should be earning Rating and Cosmetic Rewards. If you spend an hour doing Heroic Antorus you should earn gear so you can eventually do Mythic Antorus.

If gear has no influence in PvP then you aren't missing out by not doing PvE.
12/11/2017 01:22 PMPosted by Espressa
instead of constant versatility gear


Versatility gear is present in a lot of "random" loot tables as well. It's a stat that Blizzard calls "neutral" but its not. There are specs that love it and there are specs that hate it.

It's not neutral, but Blizzard had an obsession for gear with Versatility.

EDIT: geeze, even slang like that is censored? Changed it.
12/11/2017 01:51 PMPosted by Yagarr
12/11/2017 01:22 PMPosted by Espressa
1) PvP rewards should not be cosmetic, stop giving Pvp players bull!@#$ drops, if I want to play 2v2/3v3/Rbgs for an hour instead of running a dungeon or grinding out world quests we should be compensated from the same loot as the pve community.

2) If PVP has no stat advantages, why not give us dungeon/raid quality gear instead of constant versatility gear. If I go off on a wild hare and want to do a mythic+ or raid I want my gear to not completely suck.


If you want to PvE, then earn your ilvl through PvE.

That's how it used to be.

Additionally, if you wanted to PvP, then you'd earn your ilvl through PvP.
But we could just scrap that process and make gear irrelevant in PvP completely so there is no barrier to entry at all!


What is silly is that PVP gear is comparable to PVE gear that's handed out for LARPing harry potter and drawing on the ground in Azsuna, or doing enough to not go afk in LFR.

No barrier to entry, and no incentive. Where was the huge miscalculation where they decided that the PVP community doesn't want to be rewarded with gear?

I am fine with making gear irrelevant in PVP but make the gear that does drop equivalent to commensurately difficult PVE content so if I want to I can play other facets of the game.
12/11/2017 01:51 PMPosted by Yagarr
Ideally:

If you spend an hour doing 3v3 or whatever you should be earning Rating and Cosmetic Rewards. If you spend an hour doing Heroic Antorus you should earn gear so you can eventually do Mythic Antorus.

If gear has no influence in PvP then you aren't missing out by not doing PvE.


If I spend 1 hour doing 3v3 at 2000mmr and then spend an hour doing Heroic Antorus I should earn gear that gets me closer to doing mythic Antorus.
Bump
This needs attention.
Nothing about the pvp gearing system makes any kind of logical sense. For everyone who participates in both pve and PvP, pvp gear is all but useless. High ilevel pve gear is easier to get than high level pvp gear, so pve gear is almost always better in both pve and pvp if you participate in both. If you only participate in pve, your gear allows you to cross over and pvp. If you only pvp, you will likely be way behind, both in ilevel and secondary stats. There are more than enough ways to easily gear up in pve now with WQs and m+. Nobody would be "forced" to pvp for beginner gear if you increased the ilevel of PvP gear to that of equivalent pve gear.

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