Are you ready for the 8 hour MC raid?

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Check a PS Rags kill and get back to me. His abilities are nerfed. Also watch a PS raid the DPS is considerably higher. I know I was there in vanilla. Tanks threat and DPS changes. Bother are higher in PS.

Have a think about it. if it was tuned like original server pops would fall as the snowflakes couldn’t handle it. As mentioned many times before Rags was dropped in April- 5 months on original . On Ps it’s 4 weeks .

Watered down.


When you say his abilities are nerfed do you actually think they do less damage? The DPS you are seeing in most people's videos are higher than you did in vanilla because they optimize who gets which pieces of loot much better than people did in vanilla. Their abilities do the exact correct amount of damage for their gear and spell power should have. People in these videos have every available buff in the game.

You can't just say 'PS bosses are nerfed. DPS is higher' without being able to actually say why. Do you think, in this case, that Ragnaros does less melee damage, spell damage, has less hp, casts abilities less? What exactly do you think you are seeing? Tanks are not making more threat - I can easily rip threat off a tier 3 tank with a thunderfury with a tier 1-2 geared warlock. People are simply not pulling threat in this video. Give the server a try and you will see, and probably be amazed at, the level of emulation that has been achieved.

I don't have to convince you guys. The top guilds who have been running classic raids over the last 5 years+ are going to stomp them as they are released on Blizzard's servers much faster than people cleared them on retail and it won't be because Blizzard nerfed the bosses, increased tank threat, increased players dps, etc like you are claiming.
11/26/2017 03:48 PMPosted by Werbatim


Check a PS Rags kill and get back to me. His abilities are nerfed. Also watch a PS raid the DPS is considerably higher. I know I was there in vanilla. Tanks threat and DPS changes. Bother are higher in PS.

Have a think about it. if it was tuned like original server pops would fall as the snowflakes couldn’t handle it. As mentioned many times before Rags was dropped in April- 5 months on original . On Ps it’s 4 weeks .

Watered down.


When you say his abilities are nerfed do you actually think they do less damage? The DPS you are seeing in most people's videos are higher than you did in vanilla because they optimize who gets which pieces of loot much better than people did in vanilla. Their abilities do the exact correct amount of damage for their gear and spell power should have. People in these videos have every available buff in the game.

You can't just say 'PS bosses are nerfed. DPS is higher' without being able to actually say why. Do you think, in this case, that Ragnaros does less melee damage, spell damage, has less hp, casts abilities less? What exactly do you think you are seeing? Tanks are not making more threat - I can easily rip threat off a tier 3 tank with a thunderfury with a tier 1-2 geared warlock. People are simply not pulling threat in this video. Give the server a try and you will see, and probably be amazed at, the level of emulation that has been achieved.

I don't have to convince you guys. The top guilds who have been running classic raids over the last 5 years+ are going to stomp them as they are released on Blizzard's servers much faster than people cleared them on retail and it won't be because Blizzard nerfed the bosses, increased tank threat, increased players dps, etc like you are claiming.


You can't convince anyone of anything here. You blew your credibility and now you are defending private server MC runs as if they are some legit scale to what it was actually like.

/popcorn

This should be interesting to watch.
11/26/2017 03:34 PMPosted by Åpocalypse
One other thing I'd add here, is that we had a LFR version of MC during the anniversary event a few years ago and if that is any sort of indication then:

People where getting dumpstered left and right. The elementals you where supposed to stack for (Lava surger? if I'm remembering right) where killing half the raid every pull, for example (I also remember getting yelled at for actually properly banishing one of them like you would in Classic... because LFR)

Basic boss mechanics where dumpstering people left and right too, which should hopefully be less of an issue when people actually see encounters but for example Baron Gheddon's point blank AoE spam killed all but 2 of our melee because they didn't move out.

TL:DR it was basically a complete *poop*show for most of the raid and that's all while being tuned substantially and massively easier numbers tuning wise than MC was on release... Hell Rag almost died BEFORE sons came out on the LFR version, let alone nearly getting potentially 2 phases of them.

It won't be super mechanically hard, particularly if you have people who actually know/remember the content, but if the numbers are done right it sure as hell won't be a cakewalk until people are geared. This is something that even the private server people have absolutely no concept of, unless they actually saw it on live as well.... The balance/numbers tuning is way off by the 1.12 patch from where it started out.
Not gonna lie the core hounds took my group forever lol I had never done mc before that.
11/26/2017 03:33 PMPosted by Chalile
Cmon kids no name calling here.

Just to add some weight to Royvans points if you check out that video from the private server Anathema the character who was playing was doing around 700DPS.

If my memory served as a full MC geared and only a little BWL geared player at the time the average DPS was around 300 not 700, so this clear is not likely to be very representative.


300 dps is very low even in molten core and it would be impossible not to do more than that with all of the buffs people have in this video. A character in pre-raid BiS gear with no buffs or boss debuffs will do more than 300 dps even with the earliest talents and 700 isn't crazy by any means for people in good gear from tier 1-2 content. The boss fights are crazy short because of how many buffs these people have and being a full tier ahead gear wise. Doing upwards of 1500 dps has been done in naxx gear and having all possible buffs and tier 3 players do not do 5 times the dps of people in pre-raid gear.
You can't convince anyone of anything here. You blew your credibility and now you are defending private server MC runs as if they are some legit scale to what it was actually like.

/popcorn

This should be interesting to watch.


I've done MC in 2005 and also in 2017 and it is the same. I'm not sure what point you think you are making except that you are ignorant and loud about it. You were bad then and you are bad now. Your opinion is just not valuable in this discussion.

All I'm getting from you is that you struggled hard in molten core 12-13 years ago and you still have flashbacks to running back to wipe to lucifron some more.
11/26/2017 03:58 PMPosted by Werbatim
11/26/2017 03:33 PMPosted by Chalile
Cmon kids no name calling here.

Just to add some weight to Royvans points if you check out that video from the private server Anathema the character who was playing was doing around 700DPS.

If my memory served as a full MC geared and only a little BWL geared player at the time the average DPS was around 300 not 700, so this clear is not likely to be very representative.


300 dps is very low even in molten core and it would be impossible not to do more than that with all of the buffs people have in this video. A character in pre-raid BiS gear with no buffs or boss debuffs will do more than 300 dps even with the earliest talents and 700 isn't crazy by any means for people in good gear from tier 1-2 content. The boss fights are crazy short because of how many buffs these people have and being a full tier ahead gear wise. Doing upwards of 1500 dps has been done in naxx gear and having all possible buffs and tier 3 players do not do 5 times the dps of people in pre-raid gear.


I think the buffs is one of the bones of contention here.

Here is a thread on MMO-C backed up with screenshots of what kinds of DPS people were doing back in the day. They were talking about DPS on Patchwerk in Naxx needing 500DPS so not sure your numbers are accurate.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/687011-Vanilla-Raid-DPS
11/26/2017 04:01 PMPosted by Werbatim
You can't convince anyone of anything here. You blew your credibility and now you are defending private server MC runs as if they are some legit scale to what it was actually like.

/popcorn

This should be interesting to watch.


I've done MC in 2005 and also in 2017 and it is the same. I'm not sure what point you think you are making except that you are ignorant and loud about it. You were bad then and you are bad now. Your opinion is just not valuable in this discussion.


You are the ignorant loud idiot here that is trying to compare private server to what classic was like. You are the baddie here. You are arguing something you know nothing about and are picking fights where you have no ground to stand on.

Calling me bad when there's no way for you to have seen what i have done short of achievements that didn't come out till much further down the road is down right hilarious.

You have proven you know not what you speak of only some private server that you think matches up. it doesn't.

Why is it no one is agreeing with you? You are standing alone looking like a scrub.
11/26/2017 04:05 PMPosted by Chalile
11/26/2017 03:58 PMPosted by Werbatim
...

300 dps is very low even in molten core and it would be impossible not to do more than that with all of the buffs people have in this video. A character in pre-raid BiS gear with no buffs or boss debuffs will do more than 300 dps even with the earliest talents and 700 isn't crazy by any means for people in good gear from tier 1-2 content. The boss fights are crazy short because of how many buffs these people have and being a full tier ahead gear wise. Doing upwards of 1500 dps has been done in naxx gear and having all possible buffs and tier 3 players do not do 5 times the dps of people in pre-raid gear.


I think the buffs is one of the bones of contention here.

Here is a thread on MMO-C backed up with screenshots of what kinds of DPS people were doing back in the day. They were talking about DPS on Patchwerk in Naxx needing 500DPS so not sure your numbers are accurate.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/687011-Vanilla-Raid-DPS


He only has private server experience. That's where he's getting his "info" and "experience" from and why his numbers are wildly inaccurate.
11/25/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Rovyan
11/25/2017 05:18 PMPosted by Sojiroh
*raises both hands*

Not to mention I want to do those 20 man ZGs again, that was always a fun one IMO.


Yeah. And there's AQ 40 that will have some people realize just how nasty vanilla was. Huhuran and the Twin Emps broke guilds like nothing. And you will need nature resistance so good luck gathering the gear for it.

Should be interesting to see the reactions to how awful raiding was due to all the preperation needed. As a mage you are gonna be spending 20 minutes making food for the raid. Paying repairs without dailies was fun too.


I actually LOVED AQ40...killing C'thun was one of my favorite moments in Vanilla!
11/26/2017 04:09 PMPosted by Archona
11/25/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Rovyan
...

Yeah. And there's AQ 40 that will have some people realize just how nasty vanilla was. Huhuran and the Twin Emps broke guilds like nothing. And you will need nature resistance so good luck gathering the gear for it.

Should be interesting to see the reactions to how awful raiding was due to all the preperation needed. As a mage you are gonna be spending 20 minutes making food for the raid. Paying repairs without dailies was fun too.


I actually LOVED AQ40...killing C'thun was one of my favorite moments in Vanilla!


I actually loved the fight too. Specially the start when you are getting everyone ready and you run in and he uses the beam of awesome doom on your party wiping it out before the fight starts. Always have a pally with a bubble ready to run in lol...
11/26/2017 03:48 PMPosted by Werbatim


Check a PS Rags kill and get back to me. His abilities are nerfed. Also watch a PS raid the DPS is considerably higher. I know I was there in vanilla. Tanks threat and DPS changes. Bother are higher in PS.

Have a think about it. if it was tuned like original server pops would fall as the snowflakes couldn’t handle it. As mentioned many times before Rags was dropped in April- 5 months on original . On Ps it’s 4 weeks .

Watered down.


When you say his abilities are nerfed do you actually think they do less damage? The DPS you are seeing in most people's videos are higher than you did in vanilla because they optimize who gets which pieces of loot much better than people did in vanilla. Their abilities do the exact correct amount of damage for their gear and spell power should have. People in these videos have every available buff in the game.

You can't just say 'PS bosses are nerfed. DPS is higher' without being able to actually say why. Do you think, in this case, that Ragnaros does less melee damage, spell damage, has less hp, casts abilities less? What exactly do you think you are seeing? Tanks are not making more threat - I can easily rip threat off a tier 3 tank with a thunderfury with a tier 1-2 geared warlock. People are simply not pulling threat in this video. Give the server a try and you will see, and probably be amazed at, the level of emulation that has been achieved.

I don't have to convince you guys. The top guilds who have been running classic raids over the last 5 years+ are going to stomp them as they are released on Blizzard's servers much faster than people cleared them on retail and it won't be because Blizzard nerfed the bosses, increased tank threat, increased players dps, etc like you are claiming.


One of the big factors you aren't seeing on a private realm is the taunt change for Naxx... Taunt for most of vanilla did nothing to modify your threat, but rather merely forced the mob to look at you for the duration (and it was up to you the tank to then generate sufficient aggro to beat out the dps who pulled before the taunt window expired)..... This was an incredibly important and impactful mechanic that was more or less totally lost when the Naxx patch came, and taunt was changed to the more current model (presumably to make the 4horseman fight possible)

Faceroll taunt alone made most of vanilla substantially and totally easier.
11/26/2017 03:48 PMPosted by Werbatim
...

When you say his abilities are nerfed do you actually think they do less damage? The DPS you are seeing in most people's videos are higher than you did in vanilla because they optimize who gets which pieces of loot much better than people did in vanilla. Their abilities do the exact correct amount of damage for their gear and spell power should have. People in these videos have every available buff in the game.

You can't just say 'PS bosses are nerfed. DPS is higher' without being able to actually say why. Do you think, in this case, that Ragnaros does less melee damage, spell damage, has less hp, casts abilities less? What exactly do you think you are seeing? Tanks are not making more threat - I can easily rip threat off a tier 3 tank with a thunderfury with a tier 1-2 geared warlock. People are simply not pulling threat in this video. Give the server a try and you will see, and probably be amazed at, the level of emulation that has been achieved.

I don't have to convince you guys. The top guilds who have been running classic raids over the last 5 years+ are going to stomp them as they are released on Blizzard's servers much faster than people cleared them on retail and it won't be because Blizzard nerfed the bosses, increased tank threat, increased players dps, etc like you are claiming.


One of the big factors you aren't seeing on a private realm is the taunt change for Naxx... Taunt for most of vanilla did nothing to modify your threat, but rather merely forced the mob to look at you for the duration (and it was up to you the tank to then generate sufficient aggro to beat out the dps who pulled before the taunt window expired)..... This was an incredibly important and impactful mechanic that was more or less totally lost when the Naxx patch came, and taunt was changed to the more current model (presumably to make the 4horseman fight possible)

Faceroll taunt alone made most of vanilla substantially and totally easier.


And because of this people could unload a helluva lot more. DPS significantly increased because of this one change.
11/26/2017 04:05 PMPosted by Chalile
<span class="truncated">...</span>

300 dps is very low even in molten core and it would be impossible not to do more than that with all of the buffs people have in this video. A character in pre-raid BiS gear with no buffs or boss debuffs will do more than 300 dps even with the earliest talents and 700 isn't crazy by any means for people in good gear from tier 1-2 content. The boss fights are crazy short because of how many buffs these people have and being a full tier ahead gear wise. Doing upwards of 1500 dps has been done in naxx gear and having all possible buffs and tier 3 players do not do 5 times the dps of people in pre-raid gear.


I think the buffs is one of the bones of contention here.

Here is a thread on MMO-C backed up with screenshots of what kinds of DPS people were doing back in the day. They were talking about DPS on Patchwerk in Naxx needing 500DPS so not sure your numbers are accurate.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/687011-Vanilla-Raid-DPS


You're on the right track.

Patchwerk in Naxx 40 has 3,850,000hp and an enrage timer of 7 minutes. Required raid dps was 9166 (wowwiki says 9500~) and this was hard for guilds who had only blackwing lair gear without going out of their way to get all the world buffs for their 1 best attempt for the week but this was very easy, the easiest boss in the raid, for guilds who are already deep into or farming naxx.

I should have mentioned that there were very rare cases of people hitting 1500 dps in classic in short fights with AoE and single target anything over 1k was exceptionally good. The only class that could really ever do that kind of damage were rogues because they could vanish and continue to dps without pulling aggro. Any other class that could do that much damage would pull aggro and die. Hunters can feign but they were the weakest dps of the pure dps classes.

When I say there are special cases of people doing insane dps in classic due to buff stacking and having a fight specialized for your class take a look at this video. This is a ret paladin in naxx 40, 11 years ago, doing pretty crazy dps. This is a good example of what the actual worst dps spec in the game could still pull off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXNWvytYbyo

Players with every possible buff and the best gear from naxx did very comparable damage to players at level 70 wearing tier 4 because most of those buffs were simply not available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wW4n0FLKgo
(patchwerk 2006 rogue doing 1k dps) This kill took under 4 minutes.

There are very, very few videos of naxx 40 boss kills on youtube but these are some examples I could find.
11/26/2017 02:30 PMPosted by Rovyan
Its about how time consuming vanilla really is because those of you posting it will take only a couple hours are hilarious and showing your lack of knowing what vanilla is really like.

First off no one will be running MC in a couple hours until they are running Naxx 40 or AQ40 gear. And getting there is going to take months if not a year at least. Those of you comparing private server MC runs to classic are in for a huge shock.

Those of us that went through vanilla are sick of seeing people talk big with their only experiences being on private servers which is just silly. I know there's some out there that want a true vanilla experience. And some have rose tinted goggles on.

Specially when threads are already popping up for QoL improvements from retail WoW.

I was an MT for MC/BWL/Naxx40/Aq40 and it was rough. Paying repairs every night ( which bankrupts most tanks in vanilla) having to spend time in Tyrs Hand trying to out farm the farmers for some lucky epic drops to sell in order to cover repairs and of course things like 1000 gold mounts and so on.

Vanilla was good times but it was also very time consuming due to how awkward things were. There's a reason we have had so many QoL improvements since then.


You're full of it. Any guild worth their salt - especially a Naxx guild paid for their MTs repair bill. You did Naxx? How old were you when it dropped? You write and sound like a kid still. Teenage MT for a naxx guild? I don't think so.

On top of that, a MT for a Naxx guild would be smart enough to create an alt to make money, not farm as Protection. Are you nuts?

I'll guarantee you there will be guilds with Rag down in a month after MC opens up. Why? People will KNOW to get fire resist gear, all the attunements etc in advance. They'll be geared and waiting.


He only has private server experience. That's where he's getting his "info" and "experience" from and why his numbers are wildly inaccurate.


Okay sweetheart. My account is far more OG than yours if you want to take a look at my achievements. You're cute when you're mad I will give you that.

I just realized you are the OP and you think that MC raids will take 8 hours for people who know what they are doing. LoLoLoLoL
...

I think the buffs is one of the bones of contention here.

Here is a thread on MMO-C backed up with screenshots of what kinds of DPS people were doing back in the day. They were talking about DPS on Patchwerk in Naxx needing 500DPS so not sure your numbers are accurate.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/687011-Vanilla-Raid-DPS


You're on the right track.

Patchwerk in Naxx 40 has 3,850,000hp and an enrage timer of 7 minutes. Required raid dps was 9166 (wowwiki says 9500~) and this was hard for guilds who had only blackwing lair gear without going out of their way to get all the world buffs for their 1 best attempt for the week but this was very easy, the easiest boss in the raid, for guilds who are already deep into or farming naxx.

I should have mentioned that there were very rare cases of people hitting 1500 dps in classic in short fights with AoE and single target anything over 1k was exceptionally good. The only class that could really ever do that kind of damage were rogues because they could vanish and continue to dps without pulling aggro. Any other class that could do that much damage would pull aggro and die. Hunters can feign but they were the weakest dps of the pure dps classes.

When I say there are special cases of people doing insane dps in classic due to buff stacking and having a fight specialized for your class take a look at this video. This is a ret paladin in naxx 40, 11 years ago, doing pretty crazy dps. This is a good example of what the actual worst dps spec in the game could still pull off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXNWvytYbyo

Players with every possible buff and the best gear from naxx did very comparable damage to players at level 70 wearing tier 4 because most of those buffs were simply not available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wW4n0FLKgo
(patchwerk 2006 rogue doing 1k dps) This kill took under 4 minutes.

There are very, very few videos of naxx 40 boss kills on youtube but these are some examples I could find.


Good info thanks.

My math says at 9166 required raid DPS this means the average is 230DPS so assuming only half the raid are damaging (factor out !@#$ty tank and zero heals DPS) then you need people averaging around 450DPS.

I gotta say though that the conversation was about MC, and assuming that the environment will be like pre-Naxx not post-Naxx (as covered above things change a lot) then, based on above and the fact that MC is two tiers below Naxx 300DPS is pretty likely for MC raiding when its relevant.

25 minute clears with 700 DPS will only be possible if they go for a private server/1.12 style environment. If they release earlier than this then Im afraid the only way this will happen is if people totally overgear the instance, and that can only happen if the latter raids are released at the same time, but even then not sure Naxx would even be possible without all of the changes the latter patches brought into play.
11/26/2017 04:34 PMPosted by Werbatim


He only has private server experience. That's where he's getting his "info" and "experience" from and why his numbers are wildly inaccurate.


Okay sweetheart. My account is far more OG than yours if you want to take a look at my achievements. You're cute when you're mad I will give you that.

I just realized you are the OP and you think that MC raids will take 8 hours for people who know what they are doing. LoLoLoLoL


Dunno none of my raid achievements, reputation , etc some of my old school pvp titles carried over. Maybe it was because i was inactive for such a long time at one point?

11/26/2017 04:34 PMPosted by Werbatim


He only has private server experience. That's where he's getting his "info" and "experience" from and why his numbers are wildly inaccurate.


Okay sweetheart. My account is far more OG than yours if you want to take a look at my achievements. You're cute when you're mad I will give you that.

I just realized you are the OP and you think that MC raids will take 8 hours for people who know what they are doing. LoLoLoLoL


OG account? Omg. Kids these days.

For the record, I know for a fact that what is in your profile can be wrong or not even filled in. For all my characters, nothing is right. Not sure if it's because I was inactive for like 10 years. This character should have had a HWL title and at least BWL cleared.

My other character should have had Naxx40 cleared, but nothing.
If it takes you 8 hours to do MC, you aint doing it right.


Good info thanks.

My math says at 9166 required raid DPS this means the average is 230DPS so assuming only half the raid are damaging (factor out !@#$ty tank and zero heals DPS) then you need people averaging around 450DPS.

I gotta say though that the conversation was about MC, and assuming that the environment will be like pre-Naxx not post-Naxx (as covered above things change a lot) then, based on above and the fact that MC is two tiers below Naxx 300DPS is pretty likely for MC raiding when its relevant.

25 minute clears with 700 DPS will only be possible if they go for a private server/1.12 style environment. If they release earlier than this then Im afraid the only way this will happen is if people totally overgear the instance, and that can only happen if the latter raids are released at the same time, but even then not sure Naxx would even be possible without all of the changes the latter patches brought into play.


If they start with 1.1 talents and gear that has terrible stats things will be much different. Loot got buffed many times, especially tier sets, over the course of vanilla. Still, 700 dps with tier 2 gear in molten core with buff and class stacking to make fights as short as possible will likely happen. They might not be able to do 25 minutes but it really won't be much longer. These guys have done the raid hundreds of times.
Dunno none of my raid achievements, reputation , etc some of my old school pvp titles carried over. Maybe it was because i was inactive for such a long time at one point?


I haven't heard of this being a problem before. I activated one of my old accounts like 3 years ago and all of its vanilla titles were added to those characters. I still have a level 60 hunter that is senior sergeant.

OG account? Omg. Kids these days.

For the record, I know for a fact that what is in your profile can be wrong or not even filled in. For all my characters, nothing is right. Not sure if it's because I was inactive for like 10 years. This character should have had a HWL title and at least BWL cleared.

My other character should have had Naxx40 cleared, but nothing.


I hate to tell you but it is really, really easy to see if someone lies about having cleared naxx. Your wardrobe adds all quest rewards you have ever earned to it. Tier 3 were quest rewards so if you don't have tier 3 in your wardrobe that you didn't buy from the BMAH you did not do naxx. There is no way that all evidence of you 'clearing naxx' and getting high warlord are gone.

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