Things That WILL be Different (culture, etc.)

Classic Discussion
12/13/2017 05:26 AMPosted by Zones
So I also wonder how theory crafting is going to work given the major simplicity of game play for raiding.

I fear it won't recapture the community since we are currently in an age where people would rather state that ninjas don't exist than think they deserve to be black listed.

12/13/2017 05:18 AMPosted by Nelthene
Voice chat. It was around back then but significantly less common. This actually works very well for WoW (not so much for older games).


There were guilds that raided without vent?


People like to pretend the concept of Discord and Skype is something new.

I didn't know a raiding a guild which didn't require Vent or Teamspeak to raid, a forum account to read strats and post absences, and some had group chat with IRC and Jabber.

The idea that this is new "tech" that wasn't adopted 15+ years ago is laughable.
12/13/2017 07:24 AMPosted by Brisey
There will be a lot less hype, the player base will not be nearly as large as it was previously, most of the people playing will be a bit older.

Vanilla private servers seem to only have become very popular as of late, am I wrong with that? They have existed for a long time, but a few years ago I don't recall them being this popular. Nost seemed to be really popular, I think a lot of it had to do with hype and people jumping on board.

I think Classic will be tremendously popular, but in another year or two, I think it will mostly just be die hard vanilla fans putting in significant time into it. At first it will be pretty big with streamers, their fans will hop on board, but eventually a lot of them will move on to other games.

What I imagine, will be probably just two servers. PVP and PVE, a dissapropriate population of level 60s, with a few lower level alts popping in on occasion. I don't expect to see a high population in another two years.

I think it will resemble everquest in that way, mostly just a lot of fans, but not as much new blood. The lack of progression, will ultimately leave a lot of people moving on to either live WoW or elsewhere. But that is okay, because the server itself will remain in place, hopefully for a long time.

I don't mean to sound all doom and gloom, I will be enjoying classic with the rest of you, but I don't think our numbers are that large. I see people fling numbers into a sustained user base of millions, or even hundreds of thousands and I think that is very unrealistic. I think more in the realm of tens of thousands, but mostly inactive players that log in a few times a year to enjoy classic content.

I think it will be a small enough problem, that people will look back at all of the concerns with gold sellers and have a laugh, gold sellers will go hungry on this server.

A lot of us arguing against one another now, over QOL changes, patches, etc, will probably be enjoying the game together a few years from now.


Very true, If I do play Vanilla Classic which I probably will. Will just cap one character, maybe do some PVP, Dungeons etc. I'm 45 now and would never put the same amount of time I did in Vanilla-Wrath. Different priorities, some people are going to NO LIFE the hell out of the game. I can see myself playing a year, 3-4 days a week etc.

But in the end, I think you might be right the game at some point will only keep the retention of a certain player. But initially the servers will definitely be high population for a long time.
12/13/2017 06:55 AMPosted by Yorkshire
There will be more min/maxers. We have a good year and a half to two years to read up on everything before starting. If you pick anything but a dwarf priest for alliance there will be certain people that look at you funny and say "you know dwarf has the best racial right?", to which I reply "I do not care".


One of the best healers on my server was a human priest. Gotta love the spirit/stealth detection/rep increase racials.
12/13/2017 07:53 AMPosted by Kalemne
12/13/2017 06:55 AMPosted by Yorkshire
There will be more min/maxers. We have a good year and a half to two years to read up on everything before starting. If you pick anything but a dwarf priest for alliance there will be certain people that look at you funny and say "you know dwarf has the best racial right?", to which I reply "I do not care".


One of the best healers on my server was a human priest. Gotta love the spirit/stealth detection/rep increase racials.


I think my choice for race will be 100% determined by who looks best in cloth/mail/etc.

Tauren for warrior, undead for priest, dwarf for pally.
12/13/2017 07:24 AMPosted by Caciorco
Sorry, should have clarified. When wow started, a lot of players switched over from EQ, and brought an EQ mentality with them (expected to group to get anything done). This time, lots of players are going to be switching over from retail, and will bring a retail mentality with them (gogogo mentality). I wonder how that will affect the community dynamics.
Excellent comparison.

However, in spite of there being a lot of “tourists” from Retail, who may or may not stick around, the most permanent population will be former players from the original game whose lives have moved on, but who have great memories which they (we) will delight in reliving as often as the press of real life allows. For this crowd, Naxx may never make their agendas. Instead of gogogogo, we will savor the experience.

Raiding? Maybe, if we can collect enough like-minded mates so there is at least as much laughter as there is strategy, and more tolerance for wipes than for drama.

Edit: For myself, I am absolutely certain that my first maxed-out profession will be fishing, probably before lvl 40. (I think I remember that Nat Pagle’s elite quest is available at 35). I will probably ding 300 fishing standing on the jetty at Steamwheedle.
12/13/2017 06:16 AMPosted by Nelthene
12/13/2017 05:46 AMPosted by Groaker
If you weren’t in some form of team speak or vent while raiding, you weren’t raiding.


Clearly false, of course. My typing speed was over 75 wpm back then and half my friends were higher. Half of us came from EQ. There was no issue with communication.

Hell i recall typing out fight mechanics in Karazhan and Grull (pugs).

It depends what one means by "has Vent." Did our raid have a Vent? Sure. How many could actually speak? Probably four. With lag, mic issues, not even having a mic, and being obstinate about new tech, the raids happened with minimal voice chat.


WatchoutBadass.gif
Haha, for some reason the word culture in the title made me realize one thing that will probably be some parts the same, but other parts quite different: Barrens chat (and Trade chat for that matter). Why? Because there will be people trying to dredge up classic memes, but there are also a lot of things in popular culture that may have been big in 2005 and mean nothing today, and that will change the topics and tone.

Someone mentioned Mankrik's wife, and one big difference these days is that computers are so much better at multi-tasking - as are users. Many in 2004-2006 were still a bit clueless about going to a 3rd party site for information, while many in 2017 already Alt+Tab browse while playing the game and are well aware of sites like wowhead.

I am curious whether wowhead will add a WOW: Classic section or another site will crop up. Even more importantly, there's a question of whether they will be allowed to datamine the code. Back in the early days, most of the available data about items, quests, skills, and more was compiled by players. People kept track of how much XP they earned, working out charts for level differences and groups and more. People tracked quest rewards and their stats. Many contributed that to group knowledge on these sites. Now, wowhead simply datamines and gets whole lists of items, mobs, etc. that are put into the game even before any player could have found them naturally.
12/13/2017 04:37 AMPosted by Caciorco
Assume for a moment that Blizz perfectly replicates the technical aspects of Vanilla: stats, mechanics, everything. No sprinkles, no QoL, just plain vanilla. There will still be differences in the gaming experience, because a lot of the game experience depends on interaction with the community, which is in a different place than it was before. What differences do you expect when classic goes live? A couple of my ideas:

Average total time to level will be less, so server populations will be more skewed toward higher levels, because fewer people are coming to the game for the first time. Less time will be spent searching for Mankirk's Wife.

There might be less tolerance in groups for players who don't know how to play their class. When vanilla dropped, nobody knew how to play our classes. Now, many people will be leveling their 5th or 6th character. There will be an adjustment as people get used to specific mechanics, but a transition from Retail seems to me a much smaller jump that a transition from EQ.

Thoughts?


I disagree with you about it being skewed toward higher levels, as well as your point about fewer people coming to the game.

Honestly, I and many others I've come across that want vanilla don't just want to be 60 and run dungeons or raids. We love the whole leveling process, the whole game world. I think you'll see many, many people playing throughout the world, leveling alts, etc.
Not a culture thing but high speed low latency internet connections makes a HUGE difference to a whole lot of performance metrics and gameplay experiances

Not needing stop casting macros for effective casting, actually being able to stay in contact with another player in pvp etc.

In vanilla it was perfectly normal to play deep into the yellow latency even for top end raiders, I did almost all vanilla naxx with 500-600 latency constantly now I would consider that unplayable. I could not target melee in pvp as they were always ~120 degrees further round than my screen showed and if on a melee I needed to be running IN FRONT of my target to be in range to hit them.
I'm a casual player. I don't care what others do.
Going to create my toons and go questing and doing professions and having myself a grand ole time.

wow:classic will be something I play every now and then.
It won't be my only game and it won't be my primary game.

I moved on to ESO as my primary game.
Oh, something I just thought of: a lot of people (even vanilla vets) are going to be coming in with ~10 years of strict (ish) subclass divisions. That’s gonna take a while to unlearn. I bet we’ll see a lot less experimentation with talents.
12/13/2017 04:37 AMPosted by Caciorco
Assume for a moment that Blizz perfectly replicates the technical aspects of Vanilla: stats, mechanics, everything. No sprinkles, no QoL, just plain vanilla. There will still be differences in the gaming experience, because a lot of the game experience depends on interaction with the community, which is in a different place than it was before. What differences do you expect when classic goes live? A couple of my ideas:

Average total time to level will be less, so server populations will be more skewed toward higher levels, because fewer people are coming to the game for the first time. Less time will be spent searching for Mankirk's Wife.

There might be less tolerance in groups for players who don't know how to play their class. When vanilla dropped, nobody knew how to play our classes. Now, many people will be leveling their 5th or 6th character. There will be an adjustment as people get used to specific mechanics, but a transition from Retail seems to me a much smaller jump that a transition from EQ.

Thoughts?

I don't get this apparent belief that people were far less capable of analysis then and just mashed the keyboard in random patterns until they finally noticed some patterns worked better than others. I think practically speaking, almost no one is going to know how to play their classes when Classic launches; the few who do will be people who actually played before, quit multiple expansions ago, and have exceptional memories. Of the vast majority who don't know how to play their classes, the "coming from live" people will have far more problems learning how to play their classes now: "What do you mean, turning one of them into a sheep pulls the rest of them?" "What's a castable buff? All my self-only damage enhancers are passive, surely?" "What's a totem? I didn't take that utility..." "What's an aura?" "Where's the trap launcher? I can only see how to put it at my own feet!"

Similarly, I expect people will take at least as long to level as they did the first time, with a number ragequitting when they hit level 20 and go "now I get my extremely cheap mount! ...What do you mean, level 40 and 100 gold?" People whose paradigm includes being led by the nose to their quest objectives will not find Mankrik's wife faster.
12/13/2017 11:13 AMPosted by Orrth
12/13/2017 04:37 AMPosted by Caciorco
Assume for a moment that Blizz perfectly replicates the technical aspects of Vanilla: stats, mechanics, everything. No sprinkles, no QoL, just plain vanilla. There will still be differences in the gaming experience, because a lot of the game experience depends on interaction with the community, which is in a different place than it was before. What differences do you expect when classic goes live? A couple of my ideas:

Average total time to level will be less, so server populations will be more skewed toward higher levels, because fewer people are coming to the game for the first time. Less time will be spent searching for Mankirk's Wife.

There might be less tolerance in groups for players who don't know how to play their class. When vanilla dropped, nobody knew how to play our classes. Now, many people will be leveling their 5th or 6th character. There will be an adjustment as people get used to specific mechanics, but a transition from Retail seems to me a much smaller jump that a transition from EQ.

Thoughts?

I don't get this apparent belief that people were far less capable of analysis then and just mashed the keyboard in random patterns until they finally noticed some patterns worked better than others. I think practically speaking, almost no one is going to know how to play their classes when Classic launches; the few who do will be people who actually played before, quit multiple expansions ago, and have exceptional memories. Of the vast majority who don't know how to play their classes, the "coming from live" people will have far more problems learning how to play their classes now: "What do you mean, turning one of them into a sheep pulls the rest of them?" "What's a castable buff? All my self-only damage enhancers are passive, surely?" "What's a totem? I didn't take that utility..." "What's an aura?" "Where's the trap launcher? I can only see how to put it at my own feet!"

Similarly, I expect people will take at least as long to level as they did the first time, with a number ragequitting when they hit level 20 and go "now I get my extremely cheap mount! ...What do you mean, level 40 and 100 gold?" People whose paradigm includes being led by the nose to their quest objectives will not find Mankrik's wife faster.


Threat meters didn't fully get threat right until BC. Being capable of analysis doesn't mean you're doing analysis right from the get go.
Bring back Thottbot!
12/13/2017 05:46 AMPosted by Groaker
If you weren’t in some form of team speak or vent while raiding, you weren’t raiding.


My Vanilla guild got several (5 IIRC) bosses into Naxx, as well as downing C'thun. We never used a VOIP for raiding.
This possibly applies more to former vanillaplayers than those who never played it.

Borges wrote this very short story (you can read it in an hour). Its about a man, Pierre Menard, who wanted to get inside the head of Cervantes. His aim was to rewrite Don Quixote. Not just rewrite it with a modern flair, but word for word, organically as if he himself were writing it.
And he did. Word for word. Well, passages of it...

The context was really about the death of the author, and whether there could ever really be a true authentic meaning in a text, but that's the technical part for the philosophy grads. The fun part for us (and im having to use my memory here since i don't have the book to hand):

'To design wow in 2003 was an achievement, an astonishing moment in time where we got one of the best games in its day. But to do it in 2017? Its not for nothing that 13 years have passed with all kinds of amazing and innovative game design... not the least of which was the creation of vanilla wow itself'.

It's easy to look at this like you're going backwards, or undoing all those changes. But what he's (or rather, im) trying to say is that although this seems like a step backwards into nostalgia, its a product of this time, not 2003. It cant just be looked at through the same lens we used when we first experienced it. And it wont be. Players will find new joys in this game, and new ways of looking and experiencing it.

There wont be the same hamster wheel to infinity, its self contained. Once you reach your final power level, youve reached the final power level. This turns it from an mmo, more into something akin to a single player rpg. Finishing the main storyline wont be the driving force it once was, because finishing that storyline in original vanilla meant only finishing a *part* of that story, the next chapter was just over the horizon. Everything was geared toward progressing your power levels, grabbing the newest, best, most powerful items, not to beat what currently existed in game, but what was yet to come. Players who spent their time frolicking in the fields, enjoying the ambiance, taking their time, building and hosting RP events, relaxing with their guildies and all round failing to move forward were the exception. They were missing the point.

Classic will see an almost 180 degree switch around.

Players will be less hurried; less keen to finish the main game. They'll be making more alts, doing more community events, RPing more, dropping in and out with more frequency, and just all round enjoying the overall atmosphere of the world and the shared communal experience of the game. Of course, a minority will blast through everything, get fully kitted up and armed to the teeth, but they'll be the exception. And unless they are doing it for more than simply finishing the storyline (for instance to use that power for massive advantage in the main game world), they'll likely end up bored, and quit. They'll vanish from the server as if they never even existed.

Its not for nothing that thirteen years have passed... This isnt going to be about nostalgia. Its going to be a community sandpit where players re-imagine how they play wow and what they want from the experience. That's what's going to surprise people when this is released.
The biggest difference will be that we're all going to be veterans. Everyone is going to know where to go, how to quest, how to run dungeons so a huge part of the initial experience will be gone.

And the concept of just looking things up yourself is much much more common place now.

I don't get this apparent belief that people were far less capable of analysis then and just mashed the keyboard in random patterns until they finally noticed some patterns worked better than others. I think practically speaking, almost no one is going to know how to play their classes when Classic launches; the few who do will be people who actually played before, quit multiple expansions ago, and have exceptional memories. Of the vast majority who don't know how to play their classes, the "coming from live" people will have far more problems learning how to play their classes now: "What do you mean, turning one of them into a sheep pulls the rest of them?" "What's a castable buff? All my self-only damage enhancers are passive, surely?" "What's a totem? I didn't take that utility..." "What's an aura?" "Where's the trap launcher? I can only see how to put it at my own feet!"


The game was mechanics wise far simpler and since by it's nature it'll primarily appeal to people who played vanilla originally there's going to be far less confusion than there was at launch.
12/13/2017 07:24 AMPosted by Brisey
There will be a lot less hype, the player base will not be nearly as large as it was previously, most of the people playing will be a bit older.

Vanilla private servers seem to only have become very popular as of late, am I wrong with that? They have existed for a long time, but a few years ago I don't recall them being this popular. Nost seemed to be really popular, I think a lot of it had to do with hype and people jumping on board.

I think Classic will be tremendously popular, but in another year or two, I think it will mostly just be die hard vanilla fans putting in significant time into it. At first it will be pretty big with streamers, their fans will hop on board, but eventually a lot of them will move on to other games.

What I imagine, will be probably just two servers. PVP and PVE, a dissapropriate population of level 60s, with a few lower level alts popping in on occasion. I don't expect to see a high population in another two years.

I think it will resemble everquest in that way, mostly just a lot of fans, but not as much new blood. The lack of progression, will ultimately leave a lot of people moving on to either live WoW or elsewhere. But that is okay, because the server itself will remain in place, hopefully for a long time.

I don't mean to sound all doom and gloom, I will be enjoying classic with the rest of you, but I don't think our numbers are that large. I see people fling numbers into a sustained user base of millions, or even hundreds of thousands and I think that is very unrealistic. I think more in the realm of tens of thousands, but mostly inactive players that log in a few times a year to enjoy classic content.

I think it will be a small enough problem, that people will look back at all of the concerns with gold sellers and have a laugh, gold sellers will go hungry on this server.

A lot of us arguing against one another now, over QOL changes, patches, etc, will probably be enjoying the game together a few years from now.


I actually question the entire concept of progression in MMORPGs, especially WoW. WoW essentially strips you of all your progress every new expac and has even removed your old skills and talents...and prevents using flying mounts every new expac, is that really progression? Every expac is more akin to regression. It's one of the things I grew tired of with WoW.

While I'm not sure how successful this project will be, I doubt it will be only two servers. The classic crowd is at least 100,000 players and even if Blizz only attracts half of them they will need more than 2 servers. I'm not going to try to guess how many will remain several years down the road that is anybody's guess.

As for the topic of a different culture, that depends on how many new players and retailers hop on board. From what I am seeing there won't be too many of those, and those few who do will likely get scared off by the inconveniences.
I think it will be a couple of key things.

1) Players will rely on some source like "icey veins" or another to tell them exactly what spec they should play, what their BiS gear is and rotation. This of course will be fine but it will be different.

In retail Vanilla we had elitistjerks.com and all that stuff was discussed in great detail.

It had a well deserved reputation for being harsh on bad/new/uninformed players but the info was there.

2) Players will be raid oriented, both PVE and PVP.

In actual retail Vanilla I can say for certain that your average player just played the game. They weren't trying to min/max, clear content, or get Rank 14. They just wanted to log in, do stuff and that was enough.

Modern WoW players are focused on completing content.

I think the reality of Vanilla will temper that some, but I expect even pretty casual raid guilds to have goals that would be on the hardcore end of things in retail Vanilla circa 2005.
12/13/2017 05:46 AMPosted by Groaker
If you weren’t in some form of team speak or vent while raiding, you weren’t raiding.

nihilum raided back then without voicechat

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