Classic Talk Part 34: Pet Normalization

Classic Discussion
All these people talking about Broken Tooth and Lupos. My main pet on my hunter was one of those ghostsabers from Darkshore. Sure, it would've been cool to have the BiS pets but I wanted a unique pet and, honestly, didn't mind losing out on a little bit of DPS if it meant I had a ghost cat.

I will say I'm not a fan of normalization. An elite or rare pet should perform better than a random wolf you pick up in Dun Morogh. I'll run with Shadow again and stick with a turtle or boar for leveling and you can camp Lupos for days as levellers kill him for drops, other hunters scoop him up first and trolls kill him for rage.

I'll be busy doing tribute or princess runs.
01/04/2018 09:51 AMPosted by Dazelle
This is the final part in a series of discussions on each major change/addition during Vanilla that hasn’t been discussed to death yet (pulled from my previous post here --> https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759182153 ).

We end this series with a topic I should have covered earlier, the normalization of Hunter pets! I never played a hunter during Vanilla nor did I PvP so I kind of ignored stuff with hunters. I also didn’t see a specific patch note that normalized pets. The Hunters class revision came in Patch 1.7 which refunded pet talents and introduced the first round of pet customizations while Patch 1.9 normalized their movement speed and made all pet base attacks do physical damage. I am not sure when pet attack speed was normalized nor if (or when) abilities were normalized. I do recall many players mentioning a specific cat as being superior in PvP due to high attack speed that was highly effect against casters before the normalization, but aside from what I’ve mentioned above I have to admit I’m very clueless to the specifics and effects of Hunter Pet Normalization.

That being said we could have pet normalization from launch, not at all or introduced at some point during Classic’s lifetime. As I am clearly unfamiliar with these changes and their impact on Hunters and Vanilla WoW (Nor do I ever plan on playing a hunter) I can’t feasible form an opinion on the subject at hand.

I’m very curious what all you Vanilla hunters who lived through these changes think though!

I'd be against it but honestly, hunters stomp literally all melee in PvP so it wont matter that much
01/04/2018 04:23 PMPosted by Ibholy
All these people talking about Broken Tooth and Lupos. My main pet on my hunter was one of those ghostsabers from Darkshore. Sure, it would've been cool to have the BiS pets but I wanted a unique pet and, honestly, didn't mind losing out on a little bit of DPS if it meant I had a ghost cat.

I will say I'm not a fan of normalization. An elite or rare pet should perform better than a random wolf you pick up in Dun Morogh. I'll run with Shadow again and stick with a turtle or boar for leveling and you can camp Lupos for days as levellers kill him for drops, other hunters scoop him up first and trolls kill him for rage.

I'll be busy doing tribute or princess runs.


It's really not that bad--especially when you don't have to compete with europeans.
01/04/2018 11:06 AMPosted by Cheemborakin
01/04/2018 11:00 AMPosted by Anitharia
Normalizing pets is the same path that led us down to everyone be the same. I'd rather not have it in Classic at all.

If you get a rare pet, it should be better. This is a RPG, and that means everything shouldn't be equal.

So everyone being able to choose their favorite pets instead of a best in slot... Made everyone the same?


I played a bit Hunter at Vanilla and I enjoyed it a lot, that at first my choice mattered. For quite some time I had a Hyena, she was adorable and made nice noice. She only ate fruits I believe, so I gave her some melons.

Another pet of mine, was much slower, but tanked for me vs. Elite encounters.

As you can see, having different qualities of pets, will improve the feel of having a choice. If you however, make all pets the same, then it simply put, won´t matter anymore, what pet you have.

At first raids, our Hunters actually picked different pets for different fights, I think having this back, is surely a good goal.

Always remember, there will be no choices at all, if everyone is the same. This applies to gear, talents, class abilities, race abilities, mobs... It needs to matter again, which server you pick, which class and race you choose and how you build your in game experience.
Not trying to derail the thread but I missed out on vanilla hunter. Were we able to stable pets and were there very few stable slots?
And... for certain benefits BM certainly had to camp out in LK, Cata and beyond for spirit beasts, etc, for a bonus arena heal although they are somewhat homogenized at this point.
01/04/2018 05:04 PMPosted by Testoraeu
01/04/2018 11:06 AMPosted by Cheemborakin
...
So everyone being able to choose their favorite pets instead of a best in slot... Made everyone the same?


I played a bit Hunter at Vanilla and I enjoyed it a lot, that at first my choice mattered. For quite some time I had a Hyena, she was adorable and made nice noice. She only ate fruits I believe, so I gave her some melons.

Another pet of mine, was much slower, but tanked for me vs. Elite encounters.

As you can see, having different qualities of pets, will improve the feel of having a choice. If you however, make all pets the same, then it simply put, won´t matter anymore, what pet you have.

At first raids, our Hunters actually picked different pets for different fights, I think having this back, is surely a good goal.

Always remember, there will be no choices at all, if everyone is the same. This applies to gear, talents, class abilities, race abilities, mobs... It needs to matter again, which server you pick, which class and race you choose and how you build your in game experience.


What many seem unable to grasp is that whether they implement pet normalization or not, the only real difference is what the choice is.

As as hunter, my choices would be "What is the 'BIS' pet for <activity X>?" if they do not normalize pets, or "Which generic pet look do I prefer?" if pets are normalized and all pets are "equal".
01/04/2018 05:14 PMPosted by Naughtydingo
Not trying to derail the thread but I missed out on vanilla hunter. Were we able to stable pets and were there very few stable slots?
And... for certain benefits BM certainly had to camp out in LK, Cata and beyond for spirit beasts, etc, for a bonus arena heal although they are somewhat homogenized at this point.


Pets could be stabled, but there were very few stable slots.

It's been a long time, so I am not certain, but if I remember correctly, three was the maximum and hunters had to pay to unlock slots 2 and 3.
01/04/2018 05:19 PMPosted by Ratsmats
01/04/2018 05:14 PMPosted by Naughtydingo
Not trying to derail the thread but I missed out on vanilla hunter. Were we able to stable pets and were there very few stable slots?
And... for certain benefits BM certainly had to camp out in LK, Cata and beyond for spirit beasts, etc, for a bonus arena heal although they are somewhat homogenized at this point.


Pets could be stabled, but there were very few stable slots.

It's been a long time, so I am not certain, but if I remember correctly, three was the maximum and hunters had to pay to unlock slots 2 and 3.


We had three slots, but only two were used to actually store something, as the third was needed to learn abilities by other pets. The third was, the hot seat so to speak, as you kicked the pet out as soon you learned its abilities, including higher levels of abilities!

If you had a low level pet, it only had for instance level 1 dash. You now had to find pets, with a higher level of said ability, so that your pet could learn it. This only worked with basic abilities though. You could not learn 100 resistance from a pet, for instance. For this, you had to invest points into the "skill tree".
01/04/2018 01:51 PMPosted by Parano392C8D
01/04/2018 01:49 PMPosted by Rongente
They were normalized for PvP reason and that should stay in vanilla. We dont want OP pets that just push any cast down to 0 and hunters can autoattack casters to death.


If you were bad enough to be unable to work around 1.0 attack speeds you either needed engineering or needed to learn to play better.


You couldnt. If you could tell me how.
What engineering?
01/04/2018 02:32 PMPosted by Valhalian
people act like every hunter is going to get broken tooth. let's say 3000 players on a vanilla server with 10% being hunters. 300 hunters with a 4 hour respawns still would take like a year for every hunter to get broken tooth. that's not including accidental kills from other classes who just see a rare spawn. that not including trolls and time he isn't farmed. id say top 5% of hunters will farm him. some may just happen to tame him. the majority of people won't have these rare pets


Classic will be mosty static. With time everyone will have him
While I do think that some of the pets were ridiculous (and I think forcing hunters to camp rare spawns in hopes of getting a good pet will suck), I think it's part of classic and hunter fantasy. They don't have to do it to have a decent pet, but they can work towards it over time. It makes them more than simply extra damage like they tend to be on retail.

Being actually attached to a pet is nice.
01/04/2018 10:09 AMPosted by Axebreaker
If every warrior is using the same weapon, nobody cares. It's called BiS and we all move on with our lives.


Hard to argue with that. I'd say keep the elite pets being stronger. After all shouldn't they be? Maybe there are other small things they could do to encourage more variety but I don't think taking that away is helpful


I hate to say this because I was a hunter, will be a hunter again, and one of my first pets was an Elite Raptor from Wailing Caverns...NO they should not be stronger. Let me set the scene:

You're a level 18/19 hunter. You see an elite raptor that looks unlike anything else you've seen so far. For kicks 'n grins you decide to see if you can tame it. I mean no way Blizzard would let it stay elite right? It takes a few hours between the elite raptor and horde trying to run WC killing the pet less hunter, but you get it!

To your surprise, it has WAY more HP than your old pet. It also hits WAY harder.

You're also a Beastmaster, so it's buffed that much further.

Now insert this into PvP. This pet hits too hard for people to just ignore it and focus the hunter. This pet has an asinine amount of HP for the level bracket, and with a hunter that knows where Mend Pet is located behind it the pet can not be killed by 1 person.

They try teaming up, 1 guy on the pet one going after the hunter. The hunter is good at kiting, one player can't get at the hunter and the other still can't kill the pet.

It takes no less than 3 people just to lock down this ONE hunter all because of the elite pet. When I experienced this from the Hunter's perspective I KNEW this could not stand.

As for homogenizing the rest? I stand against it. I went to great lengths to tame King Bangalash, and loved that it had a unique ability. I was disheartened to say the least when Serpent's Swiftness was applied to every cat in game.

I still kept him around, at least until Spirit Beasts became a thing in Wrath and Gondria took his place. There SHOULD be special pets that you have to go out of your way to find, and they ought to be more than just a semi-unique skin. It's not like there was a game breaking difference between a special pet and a regular one anyway. KB was only a hair above the DPS put oUT by a regular cat, and really only came in handy delaying caster's bars.
Hold the phone here. Normalization of attack speed or nerfing unique pets?
Lupos was nerfed due to the fact that he did shadow damage which completely bypassed armor in PVP. Think there was another but not as significant. This led to all pets doing physical damage.

There was a raptor that ran as fast as an epic mount. Now you can see why these would be a problem.

Attack speed was not nerfed until a later expansion. Part of what is missed in the hunter class is the uniqueness of the pets.

Now I get that certain pets had to be nerfed. Leave the attack speed alone though that was not changed in vanilla.

Camping for pets and training those pets is something I miss. I just started a hunter on live for sngs. it is no where near the same. Only good thing is the pet stays next to you lol. Rest just sucks and I doubt I'll be getting past level 20. We will see tho.

I for one can't wait to make a hunter. There class quests were awesome. The Lil things like finding your rate pet then training then and building loyalty. Then having to track down other pets just to get the next rank in ability.

Go mess with pallies or druids. leave muh hunter alone lol.
I vote to normalize them..... Only because this thread gave me ptsd from reminding me just how many flipping ZG bat's where around in pvp... Making those noises.... Just the worst noises. Kill them... Kill them all. With fire.

Seriously though even without normalizing their attack speeds there will be best pets via abilities. This just gives people some more customization towards choosing a preferred model... Something the rare ones still had to differentiate.
I liked the Normalization mostly because it allowed me to continue playing my raptor I got in the hunter starting zone with the orange skin for the entirety of Vanilla. Corruption was his name. I miss Corruption.
No to pet normalization. This was the first step taken down the slippery slope of homogenization that killed the game for so many of us.

What should have been (should be done), is adding options and variety to end game quality and elite pets to give more than the 2-3 options that existed.
I played a hunter in vanilla, I spent the time looking for rare spawns or elites. The Rake for instance was a lvl 10 elite cat outside thunders bluff, if I remember he had next fastest attack speed after brokentooth. My pet I camped was Takk the Leaper, a rare spawn raptor who if memory serves could chase down people on epic mounts...having trouble with another player getting him down to low health he stuns u, mounts up and runs away...fat chance with Takk... I would have to voice my opinion as an epic NO for normalization. Takes the joy outta grinding for the best.
01/04/2018 10:09 AMPosted by Axebreaker
I've heard it said that some pets being better than others was bad for the game, because it meant that every hunter used the same pet. To which I say, "SO WHAT"? If every warrior is using the same weapon, nobody cares. It's called BiS and we all move on with our lives.


I believe that for many hunters it was part of class fantasy. The idea for hunters was that they shared a bond with their pet, it was an extension of their class not just a piece of equipment that would be changed out with new tiers of content.

Warrior's don't have to feed their pet, maintain their happiness, or rely on them as an extension of their class functionality directly like pets are. Pets are something that transcend equipment for hunters and I believe that is one of the reasons people wanted pets to be more normalized, so that their bond with a pet meant something more to them.

After all, isn't bringing back Classic all about putting the RPG back into MMORPG? Seems to me allowing hunters to create a more meaningful bond with their pets is a big part of that.
01/04/2018 10:57 PMPosted by Rongente


You couldnt. If you could tell me how.
What engineering?


For warlocks:
amplified curse + curse of weakness on broken tooth. It brings down each swing from it by 45 damage making it hit you from maybe 1-6 damage then you just dot and chase the hunter as he can't do a whole lot.

if you don't want to waste an amp'd CoW on the pet, coil the hunter and iron grenade on yourself (which the pet is glued to) followed by howl of terror to fear the pet and you've won.

alternatively: use a succubus and trivialize the fight.

For mages:
blink onto hunter > CoC to slow him down. He'll scatter in 90% of situations but be crippled by the slowing effect, you just walk on over, FN and poly his pet while waiting in his deadzone.

Really though when you get BWL+ gear you're entirely capable of just nuking the hunter down solely using instant casts since he'll have at most around 4600 hp.

For warlocks:
amplified curse + curse of weakness on broken tooth. It brings down each swing from it by 45 damage making it hit you from maybe 1-6 damage then you just dot and chase the hunter as he can't do a whole lot.

if you don't want to waste an amp'd CoW on the pet, coil the hunter and iron grenade on yourself (which the pet is glued to) followed by howl of terror to fear the pet and you've won.

alternatively: use a succubus and trivialize the fight.

For mages:
blink onto hunter > CoC to slow him down. He'll scatter in 90% of situations but be crippled by the slowing effect, you just walk on over, FN and poly his pet while waiting in his deadzone.

Really though when you get BWL+ gear you're entirely capable of just nuking the hunter down solely using instant casts since he'll have at most around 4600 hp.


Doesnt really help if hes attacking you. And pet pushes backs your cast regardless. Hunter wont just stand there looking at you. Hell be shooting and pushing back your casts even further. Strong pets go well with bestial wrath so he wont be hitting for 1-6 dmg either...
Hunters were a strong pvp class. You seem to make them look bad.
Hunter will just kill succy with his pet and scatter in dead zone.

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