Vanilla WTF?!

Classic Discussion
For years I've longed for the opportunity to play classic WOW. I wasted hours playing WC, WCII and WCIII but didn't join WoW until just before BC; by the time my first toon (druid) was level 10 or so, early adopters were beginning to hit 70.
I was blown away by the depth of the world and the complexity of the game, the innumerable nooks and crannies to explore, the myriad ways to die. Then... I left Teldrassil and had my mind blown even further, realizing I had been exposed to not even the tip of the iceberg.
Since then I've been present for the release of every expac, raiding throughout BC and WOTLK, becoming disillusioned with raids in Cata and beyond and spending the majority of my time in various forms of PVP since then but along the way max leveling most every class and always completing the questing adventures. I've endured the changes in talent trees, the frustrations of flight/no flight, leveling in both PVE and PVP zones, most everything the game has to offer up to endgame raiding. I'm hoping to find myself with a capable raiding guild at 60 and reignite my passion for that part of the game.
I've been following the discussions regarding the possibility of a classic experience for the past two years but have never bothered to pursue a private server.

TL;DR What is going to take me by surprise in vanilla once it's released? The game was so much more complex and immersive in BC but I've entirely missed out on the experience prior to that. What's going to catch someone like me off guard and blow my mind?
Nothing. From my understanding, this is not a money maker for Blizz. This is a museum for the fans. This is not for new players either. This is not a, "Lets go back to Vanilla with all the game development lessons we've learned, and make it better than it ever was" experience.

This is for you and your memories.
40 man raids. To me that was the biggest thing that was lost from vanilla. There was a truly epic feel to raiding with a full raid group. The sheer size of your group... I mean there was just something about it. I don't even have the words. You just have to do it. And this is coming from someone who prefers PvP 99 times out of 100 over PvE.

And btw, I also started out my 13 year journey in teldrassil on this very rogue. Since then I've become a huge horde fan and I transferred to horde as soon as it became an option in WotLK. But I'll never forget my first experience in teldrassil. It's still the most nostalgic zone to me.
The only thing you've really missed out on is the 40 person raids.

The questing experience is going to be a little bit harder than what you had in Burning Crusade, but it'll be very close to it minus going to Outlands and leveling past 60. I doubt there will be any mind blowing moments there.
12/21/2017 05:20 PMPosted by Lokubi
This is not for new players either.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Some new players will want to check out Classic, and some portion of them will prefer it to retail WoW.

People like old computer games. It's not weird to prefer an old computer game to a new one. Plenty of people prefer Broodwar to SC2, and it's not just nostalgia.
I started in BC, have to say I had a tough time of it. The game was more engrossing back then. I still play it but end up making it about making gold or collecting pets and just wasting time.
When Classic drops I have plans to lvl 3 classes; Warrior Shaman and another Warlock. Can't wait to do it right this time. Knowing more these days will help me to enjoy the lvling experience so much.
12/21/2017 06:22 PMPosted by Efdaqefawew
12/21/2017 05:20 PMPosted by Lokubi
This is not for new players either.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Some new players will want to check out Classic, and some portion of them will prefer it to retail WoW.

People like old computer games. It's not weird to prefer an old computer game to a new one. Plenty of people prefer Broodwar to SC2, and it's not just nostalgia.


Oh, I agree, some old games are definitely superior to their sequels. Broodwar is considered by the community however as one of the most perfectly balanced games in existence.

However, you don't take a 12 year old game, re-release it, and without major changes, expect people to flock to it. Some new players may like the game, but they're not designing it with that target in mind. If they were truly targeting new players, this would be Vanilla, with changes to make it a modern game.

This is for the old people who want to play their memories again.
12/21/2017 06:22 PMPosted by Efdaqefawew
...
I wouldn't be too sure about that. Some new players will want to check out Classic, and some portion of them will prefer it to retail WoW.

People like old computer games. It's not weird to prefer an old computer game to a new one. Plenty of people prefer Broodwar to SC2, and it's not just nostalgia.


Oh, I agree, some old games are definitely superior to their sequels. Broodwar is considered by the community however as one of the most perfectly balanced games in existence.

However, you don't take a 12 year old game, re-release it, and without major changes, expect people to flock to it. Some new players may like the game, but they're not designing it with that target in mind. If they were truly targeting new players, this would be Vanilla, with changes to make it a modern game.

This is for the old people who want to play their memories again.


What "changes" would you suggest to make it a "modern game"?
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Oh, I agree, some old games are definitely superior to their sequels. Broodwar is considered by the community however as one of the most perfectly balanced games in existence.

However, you don't take a 12 year old game, re-release it, and without major changes, expect people to flock to it. Some new players may like the game, but they're not designing it with that target in mind. If they were truly targeting new players, this would be Vanilla, with changes to make it a modern game.

This is for the old people who want to play their memories again.


What "changes" would you suggest to make it a "modern game"?


There are many, but the community does not want it. That's not the point of the game. I mean, the most basic would be to rebalance the classes and specs to be viable end game. Fixing loot to get rid of spirit on plate. A more modern PvP take. I could go on, but that's not the point.

The point is, Vanilla is a 12 year old MMO. You do not, as a business, market a 12 year old game hoping new people to join unless you're doing some modern day overhauling.

To finalize my point, what if you saw "Everquest Classic!" being advertised? You looked, and found out there would be no graphical updates, and all the old systems would be exactly the same as on initial release. You of course have never played Everquest. You're just not going to care beyond mild curiosity, and the first time you encounter some of the truly crappy mechanics, you're going to drop it for something else.

Remember, you aren't a high school or college student anymore. What was hip, hot, and cool in your day, often does not scale well through the years. Wildstar for example was an MMO that tried to mirror classic WoW at end game, with large raids, and attunement quests. It was a MASSIVE failure once people hit end game, mostly because of the massive time sink.

Classic WoW is for classic people, not intended for anything more.
12/21/2017 09:10 PMPosted by Lokubi
...

What "changes" would you suggest to make it a "modern game"?


There are many, but the community does not want it. That's not the point of the game. I mean, the most basic would be to rebalance the classes and specs to be viable end game. Fixing loot to get rid of spirit on plate. A more modern PvP take. I could go on, but that's not the point.

The point is, Vanilla is a 12 year old MMO. You do not, as a business, market a 12 year old game hoping new people to join unless you're doing some modern day overhauling.

To finalize my point, what if you saw "Everquest Classic!" being advertised? You looked, and found out there would be no graphical updates, and all the old systems would be exactly the same as on initial release. You of course have never played Everquest. You're just not going to care beyond mild curiosity, and the first time you encounter some of the truly crappy mechanics, you're going to drop it for something else.

Remember, you aren't a high school or college student anymore. What was hip, hot, and cool in your day, often does not scale well through the years. Wildstar for example was an MMO that tried to mirror classic WoW at end game, with large raids, and attunement quests. It was a MASSIVE failure once people hit end game, mostly because of the massive time sink.

Classic WoW is for classic people, not intended for anything more.


That's about what I figured. Apparently, you are not interested in Classic. You apparently want to apply legion's EZ mode to vanilla.
...

There are many, but the community does not want it. That's not the point of the game. I mean, the most basic would be to rebalance the classes and specs to be viable end game. Fixing loot to get rid of spirit on plate. A more modern PvP take. I could go on, but that's not the point.

The point is, Vanilla is a 12 year old MMO. You do not, as a business, market a 12 year old game hoping new people to join unless you're doing some modern day overhauling.

To finalize my point, what if you saw "Everquest Classic!" being advertised? You looked, and found out there would be no graphical updates, and all the old systems would be exactly the same as on initial release. You of course have never played Everquest. You're just not going to care beyond mild curiosity, and the first time you encounter some of the truly crappy mechanics, you're going to drop it for something else.

Remember, you aren't a high school or college student anymore. What was hip, hot, and cool in your day, often does not scale well through the years. Wildstar for example was an MMO that tried to mirror classic WoW at end game, with large raids, and attunement quests. It was a MASSIVE failure once people hit end game, mostly because of the massive time sink.

Classic WoW is for classic people, not intended for anything more.


That's about what I figured. Apparently, you are not interested in Classic. You apparently want to apply legion's EZ mode to vanilla.

Yeah, Lokubi is apparently annoyed that people who want to play the game Blizzard made years ago, and don't want to play the game Blizzard is making now...don't want to play the game Blizzard is making now. So much so that he's spamming multiple threads with these assertions that that's tantamount to actively wanting it to be objectively worse.

Tricksyhyena, what will surprise you will depend on 1) which patch they decide to go with, and 2) how much you've forgotten from what you first played, but I'm sure there'll be something.
12/21/2017 10:14 PMPosted by Narya


Yeah, Lokubi is apparently annoyed that people who want to play the game Blizzard made years ago, and don't want to play the game Blizzard is making now...don't want to play the game Blizzard is making now. So much so that he's spamming multiple threads with these assertions that that's tantamount to actively wanting it to be objectively worse.

Tricksyhyena, what will surprise you will depend on 1) which patch they decide to go with, and 2) how much you've forgotten from what you first played, but I'm sure there'll be something.


Hm, either I'm conveying the wrong attitude, or your reading something into my post that I'm not intending.

I want Classic to come out. I want the old time gamers, like myself, to have a good time with memories. First, I had to understand what it was they wanted. You see, I'm flexible. For me, I want a game to make the interested players in it happy, not the uninterested players. All I'm pointing out are some consequences of an unchanged classic. This is NOT targetted at new players. And that's ok!

Initially, I was thinking Blizz WAS targetting this at new players. But after reading the forums, I realized that this isn't what the game is. This is a legacy item, a museum for the older folks like myself to relive a past gaming experience. Consequently, this can't target new players. You can't have both.

I think that's where the real conflict is coming in. Players who want fixes want to draw in new people. They want to go back to an old game, but polish it up a bit so its new again. That's if you want to bring the original to a new generation.

From what I gather, the people asking for the game DO NOT WANT THIS. They don't care, they want the memories, warts and all. I respect that. But you can't go both ways. You can't take an unchanged 12 year old game and expect new players to pour in. On the flip side, you can't make changes because you'll lose the very base that wants the old game back.

Again, the specifics of how to update are utterly irrelevant. The community does not want updates. As such, it is targetted to a past gamer, and not a modern day new player.
12/21/2017 11:00 PMPosted by Lokubi

Initially, I was thinking Blizz WAS targetting this at new players. But after reading the forums, I realized that this isn't what the game is. This is a legacy item, a museum for the older folks like myself to relive a past gaming experience. Consequently, this can't target new players. You can't have both.


Although I missed out entirely on everything pre-BC (at least class balance, spec-wise and probably difficulty-wise, as far as I know the zoning and quest lines were the same) I've long had the feeling that the further the game has been developed after BC, the further it is from what I would have liked to experience.

WOW was introduced at just the wrong time for me, just finishing up undergrad and beginning grad school, and the time sink just wasn't possible. I was raised on Gygax-era DnD and the text-based dial-up RPGs Legend of The Red Dragon and Usurper, and the complexity, frustration level and overwhelming amount of ways to get your !@# handed to you of classic seems like the logical next step, fully embracing modern (2005!) technology.

So... I'll be a player new to vanilla for sure, and maybe the purity (which is what I THINK I want) of an unadulterated WOW 1.X will not be for me, but nostalgia can be contagious, and I've convinced myself that it's what I want out of this sort of game.
Time will tell. And which time that is will be entirely up to Blizz development.
I would like to add in that I think "new" is a big stretch.

If someone has ever had an inkling to play WoW, they probably have in some form, over the past 13 years.

It's going to attract 3 major groups.

1 - The people who aren't playing anymore but are playing some form of private server.
2 - People who don't play anymore and want Blizz sponsered Vanilla who don't trust Private Servers.
3 - Retail people who will try it, and may like it enough to actually stick around.

There is going to be a HUGE amount of "try-it and ditch it" type people, who won't want the grind or the work.

The problem with altering it is that you're immediately alienated the first two types, in hopes that type 3 brings in more people... Which they don't really want cause they want people to play the new shiny stuff.

This is why it shouldn't be changed or modified.
12/21/2017 09:10 PMPosted by Lokubi
Remember, you aren't a high school or college student anymore. What was hip, hot, and cool in your day, often does not scale well through the years.

Some games are centuries old that people still play a lot. Poker and chess for example. People still play Monopoly, baseball, the original Pac Man and Tetris, and so on and so forth. Gaming trends come and go and always have, but good games stick around. Even video games.

12/21/2017 09:10 PMPosted by Lokubi
Wildstar for example was an MMO that tried to mirror classic WoW at end game, with large raids, and attunement quests. It was a MASSIVE failure once people hit end game, mostly because of the massive time sink.

As someone there at the launch of Wildstar I can say it had a lot more problems than end game.

The world was small and felt small. Quests and mobs were bugged and never fixed. The telegraph combat was idiotic in PvP where players were often required to stack. The game itself was designed to be twitchy, yet they developed classes like the Esper that couldn't cast while moving. Necessary amps for some classes were impossible to get. Arena was released on launch day. Crafting was bugged. The UI was crazy and the AH and CE were an absolute mess. I know I'm forgetting a bunch of things.

I've done attunements in vanilla and TBC and in comparison the attunements in WS were just downright stupid. I think the biggest problem was there was zero reward for doing them. The raids were fun and that was it. Thing is, most people got fed up and quit before getting to that point. Wildstar was just an all around bad game.

Steven Frost bailed awfully quick on that game. He recently left Blizzard after f*cking up god knows what.
12/22/2017 06:07 AMPosted by Tyllîance
I would like to add in that I think "new" is a big stretch.

If someone has ever had an inkling to play WoW, they probably have in some form, over the past 13 years.

It's going to attract 3 major groups.

1 - The people who aren't playing anymore but are playing some form of private server.
2 - People who don't play anymore and want Blizz sponsered Vanilla who don't trust Private Servers.
3 - Retail people who will try it, and may like it enough to actually stick around.

There is going to be a HUGE amount of "try-it and ditch it" type people, who won't want the grind or the work.

The problem with altering it is that you're immediately alienated the first two types, in hopes that type 3 brings in more people... Which they don't really want cause they want people to play the new shiny stuff.

This is why it shouldn't be changed or modified.


Thanks, this got my point across better than my poor attempts.
12/21/2017 05:20 PMPosted by Lokubi
Nothing. From my understanding, this is not a money maker for Blizz. This is a museum for the fans. This is not for new players either. This is not a, "Lets go back to Vanilla with all the game development lessons we've learned, and make it better than it ever was" experience.

This is for you and your memories.


This is 100% a money maker. You really don’t think this will result in any live subs? You don’t think there will be a charge to play this again? Man you’ve got another thing coming.

Would’ve been easier for Blizz to just not do this, they’re hiring an entire team, they’re going to charge for it. Probably a sub.
12/21/2017 11:00 PMPosted by Lokubi
Hm, either I'm conveying the wrong attitude, or your reading something into my post that I'm not intending.

I want Classic to come out. I want the old time gamers, like myself, to have a good time with memories. First, I had to understand what it was they wanted. You see, I'm flexible. For me, I want a game to make the interested players in it happy, not the uninterested players. All I'm pointing out are some consequences of an unchanged classic. This is NOT targetted at new players. And that's ok!

Initially, I was thinking Blizz WAS targetting this at new players. But after reading the forums, I realized that this isn't what the game is. This is a legacy item, a museum for the older folks like myself to relive a past gaming experience. Consequently, this can't target new players. You can't have both.

I think that's where the real conflict is coming in. Players who want fixes want to draw in new people. They want to go back to an old game, but polish it up a bit so its new again. That's if you want to bring the original to a new generation.

From what I gather, the people asking for the game DO NOT WANT THIS. They don't care, they want the memories, warts and all. I respect that. But you can't go both ways. You can't take an unchanged 12 year old game and expect new players to pour in. On the flip side, you can't make changes because you'll lose the very base that wants the old game back.

Again, the specifics of how to update are utterly irrelevant. The community does not want updates. As such, it is targetted to a past gamer, and not a modern day new player.
This is the post where I finally got what you were saying. While you're right, you might be forgetting the many, many players who have not experienced Vanilla and truly want to. I think this type of player, will not care about many changes (though I'm unsure what the majority would be).
I think classic will surprise the gaming community with its success. I suspect on launch we will see an insane amount of people checking it out. Then of course like many have said we will see a big decline. However, I think the core group of players that stick around will be slightly larger than expected.

Here's the catch and of course just my opinion and speculation. Once the game settles. A couple of months later we will see a slow rise of average players. I think gamers will be split amongst their friends. You may prefer live but your buddies may prefer Classic. Talk, game experience and a sense of curiosity will make some people give it another try.

The thing about classic is it's charm and immersion. Some of the QoL improvements have indeed removed immersion. Classic doesn't grab you the first ten lvls like live. It's not until lvl 20 or 30 that you start to get it. You develop a real bond with your character in classic long before max level. Lvl 10 gives you that first sense of achievement and then again at 20-25. You really feel your progress and your journey.

I recognize the superior graphics in live. However, classic has more contrast in colors. Everything isn't such a blur. You walk into an area and see no mobs. Until you have 6 wolves and a couple of defias on you and find yourself wondering where in the hell they came from. You can't miss the night/ day cycle. You notice the rain and other weather effects. You actually see blood flying around with every attack vs a light show. Hear the clang of a weapon against your chain mail. You hear the wince of the mob when you land a crit and vise versa. You hear every footstep against the ground or wood floor. Zones feel more open. dungeons and cities are more vast with larger openings and hall ways etc.

Times sinks and grinds progress your character. Be it professions, cooking, first aid fishing or rep. It all develops your character.

Classic itself has character and definitely immersion that live does not. So yes in a sense it is a new game for anyone that has never experienced that in an MMo. Namely the crowd that have only experienced cata onward. If people stick around I think they will be pleasantly surprised. Right when you think you know all there is to know about classic you find out you don't know anything.

If classic is handled correctly, I suspect a year down the road that classic server numbers will be much closer to that of live than people expect. And like everyone keeps saying, this is a 13 year old game that the majority of players have already experienced. Imagine classic core game play wrapped around an entirely new MMO that we haven't adventured yet. What would those numbers look like? Classic has a great formula that I feel is really being under estimated

Sorry for the novel LOL.
So you are asking what the main QoL issues were addressed by BC compared to the original experience? BC seemed like it was a smaller world to me. Gold was easier to come by...perhaps the first indication that WoW had drastically changed. Certain group leveling quests had exploits which made them soloable I.e. Big Bone Worm. Vanilla was much more of a pain in the neck.

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