Item Stat Allocation Re-Balancing

Classic Discussion
12/28/2017 10:01 AMPosted by Grogzo265432
So this brings up an important question, do you honestly think that Blizzard has a record of when every item was added in Vanilla? I doubt they do.

[/quote]

As much as the "gotcha" questions are appreciated, yes it is uncertain when it was added, however it looks like in patch 1.3 everything that had +healing/damage got a massive buff to that stat with the release of Diremaul. During this patch many items had undergone changes to their stats so it's unclear what a pre-1.3 BiS list would look like.
Spirit is obviously garbage, it is a filler stat. You see a level 35 green with 8 str and 8 stam, then you see a level 35 green in the same slot with 7 str, 7 stam, and 6 spirit. Gear would typically sacrifice a very low amount of core stats for a good amount of spirit that helps with grinding and farming.

Blizzard knew this and it was intended. Go and look at T1 stats compared to T3 stats. Blizzard knew the whole time what stats where good lol. They didn't want to give you too strong of armor.
12/28/2017 09:30 AMPosted by Grogzo265432
12/28/2017 09:29 AMPosted by Kalemne
...+

Gonna need some supporting evidence on the 50 blue being BiS.


My bad, level 42 blue. http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=13102#comments


Just because some random person says an item is pre-raid bis doesn't necessarily make it so. There's also the question of which set bonuses they are considering as the T0 set bonuses were changed (devout got much worse IMO) or if the set bonuses are being considered at all. Yes, that particular item has the highest "+healing" modifier of any blue but that doesn't necessarily make it the best item.
12/28/2017 11:34 AMPosted by Ellilaine
12/28/2017 09:30 AMPosted by Grogzo265432
...

My bad, level 42 blue. http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=13102#comments


Just because some random person says an item is pre-raid bis doesn't necessarily make it so. There's also the question of which set bonuses they are considering as the T0 set bonuses were changed (devout got much worse IMO) or if the set bonuses are being considered at all. Yes, that particular item has the highest "+healing" modifier of any blue but that doesn't necessarily make it the best item.


Cassandras grace actually was pre-bis for almost all healers iirc. Just like Unicorn band for mages. It was a 43 green which was usually picked up for pre-bis.
12/28/2017 11:34 AMPosted by Ellilaine
12/28/2017 09:30 AMPosted by Grogzo265432
...

My bad, level 42 blue. http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=13102#comments


Just because some random person says an item is pre-raid bis doesn't necessarily make it so. There's also the question of which set bonuses they are considering as the T0 set bonuses were changed (devout got much worse IMO) or if the set bonuses are being considered at all. Yes, that particular item has the highest "+healing" modifier of any blue but that doesn't necessarily make it the best item.


It isn't one person, it is commonly accepted as the BiS helm for resto preMC and even better than Tier 1 Druid Helm.
12/28/2017 11:34 AMPosted by Ellilaine
Just because some random person says an item is pre-raid bis doesn't necessarily make it so. There's also the question of which set bonuses they are considering as the T0 set bonuses were changed (devout got much worse IMO) or if the set bonuses are being considered at all. Yes, that particular item has the highest "+healing" modifier of any blue but that doesn't necessarily make it the best item.


The +healing stat actually gives you better mana efficiency by causing down ranked spells to heal more for less mana, so when it came to pre-raid itemizing and you had to choose between something with spirit/low +healing and something with no spirit/a lot of +healing you would choose to forgo the spirit all together for better efficiency. As a side note MP5 was just a better stat than spirit altogether.
12/28/2017 11:39 AMPosted by Grogzo265432
It isn't one person, it is commonly accepted as the BiS helm for resto preMC and even better than Tier 1 Druid Helm.


Here is a spreadsheet of pre-raid BiS.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j81TgG0p_HrYKajiUiQfYIoSUx1culzy2u_Fc4wtiS8/htmlview?sle=true#

Take note that the helm is on there but there are many others on there as well. Also keep in mind that Cassandra's grace was a BoE world drop so you had to either be really lucky or have a good chunk of change to spend at the AH.
Still, your original statement was it was better than raid blues. I don't think a level 40+ item in a max level 60 game being bis before raiding is that big of a deal.
Alternate idea: No changes.
When you play private servers stats on that kind of gear are not worth it but in vanilla on the blizzard servers they had a reason to be. On private servers you don't even queue up to do dungeons like sm, etc while leveling but in the original wow you did. You did also go in bg's at low level etc. And yes there was plenty of people doing them all day long.

What people don't understand is there is nothing to change to the original wow except make more accessible raids, grouping of other players, prevent ninja looting by giving a easy way to report in-game the ninja looter and make sure there is no name change option available to players or server transfer like in the old day's so it forces the ninja looter to reroll a new character because no guild wanted them anymore or players wanted to run dungeons or content with them anymore and yes that was very long and sometime a killer for that player that made them quit all together so basically a perfect solution to the trolls and toxic players.

That is why people where stopping playing in the day's not because the game was boring or took to long, but because you could not be a troll or a toxic player to the extreme. And if you rolled on a pvp server but where a pve player then too bad re-roll on another server because no way to transfer. But that made it so you had to think carefully what you wanted to play. IT was basically the darksoul of mmorpg in the day.
12/28/2017 06:06 AMPosted by Khurgrim
What do people think about re-balancing the stats on certain items


NO
12/28/2017 06:27 AMPosted by Nimeralion
Any design change would require a chain of changes though. Abilities, bosses need to be adjusted if more gear is available.


I like how many people think Blizzard is just going to carbon copy some 2003-2005 patch server and put it up without changing any numbers on retuning anything. It's cute. Why do you think they said it was going to take a long time and why they are hiring their own dev team?
12/28/2017 01:12 PMPosted by Amideus
12/28/2017 06:27 AMPosted by Nimeralion
Any design change would require a chain of changes though. Abilities, bosses need to be adjusted if more gear is available.


I like how many people think Blizzard is just going to carbon copy some 2003-2005 patch server and put it up without changing any numbers on retuning anything. It's cute. Why do you think they said it was going to take a long time and why they are hiring their own dev team?


A dev team really doesn't prove anything about what they're thinking one way or another. Even if they wanted to just turn up some servers and get everything running exactly as it was before, they will need developers.

Again, I'm not saying that this means no changes or all changes. It just doesn't tell us anything.
12/28/2017 12:45 PMPosted by Harland
NO


I expect better from you...

12/28/2017 11:44 AMPosted by Kalemne
Take note that the helm is on there but there are many others on there as well. Also keep in mind that Cassandra's grace was a BoE world drop so you had to either be really lucky or have a good chunk of change to spend at the AH.


Well let's look at those other items:

Two of them are specific Green Lens items, which were equally as rare as boe drops and required engineering as a profession to use. Holy Shroud is another world drop boe... so that leaves two relatively weak items with no bonus healing.
12/28/2017 01:14 PMPosted by Odradæ
Again, I'm not saying that this means no changes or all changes. It just doesn't tell us anything.


You don't need a separate dev team to put up existing patches. There will be changes, and their statements of "We are going to TRY and bring back the vanilla experience as best we can" is a pretty big indication as well.
I expect better from you...


I do typically take the time to explain things but I am feeling a bit run down.. I may be coming down with a flu or something.

I guess the long and short of making changes to T0 is simply this; it really screws up the early game. Those T-0 sets are also designed to be kinda good for all 3 talent tree options; yet not ideal or focused on any one play style.

They are entry level for a reason, and so should not be changed because for their intended use they are not actually bad.
12/28/2017 01:21 PMPosted by Amideus
12/28/2017 01:14 PMPosted by Odradæ
Again, I'm not saying that this means no changes or all changes. It just doesn't tell us anything.


You don't need a separate dev team to put up existing patches. There will be changes, and their statements of "We are going to TRY and bring back the vanilla experience as best we can" is a pretty big indication as well.


You do if you don't want complaining that Classic will take away from BfA. A game as complicated as WoW isn't a 'next, next, next, finish' windows install. Getting it to run on their modern infrastructure alone with zero other changes would require a dev team.
12/28/2017 11:21 AMPosted by Cyberfriendx
Spirit is obviously garbage, it is a filler stat. You see a level 35 green with 8 str and 8 stam, then you see a level 35 green in the same slot with 7 str, 7 stam, and 6 spirit. Gear would typically sacrifice a very low amount of core stats for a good amount of spirit that helps with grinding and farming.

Blizzard knew this and it was intended. Go and look at T1 stats compared to T3 stats. Blizzard knew the whole time what stats where good lol. They didn't want to give you too strong of armor.

To be sure. Well, "garbage" is a bit strong, but Blizzard freely admitted that they deliberately made higher-tier items better itemized, because they didn't want (e.g.) a Protection warrior who was already wearing tier 1 pants seeing tier 2 warrior pants drop from Ragnaros and going, "Nah, I can tank better in these."
12/28/2017 01:27 PMPosted by Odradæ
You do if you don't want complaining that Classic will take away from BfA. A game as complicated as WoW isn't a 'next, next, next, finish' windows install. Getting it to run on their modern infrastructure alone with zero other changes would require a dev team.


That part has actually been accomplished. They have a much more problematic task; I know it does not sound like much but here is the problem. Also Blizzard did higher on a development team just for Classic because of the following challenges

I will not be using any technical terms to keep this as understandable as possible.

What components do you use that exist in the 1.xx series?

Example, there are 2 versions of AV, 3 versions of Scholomance, numerous versions of class design, 2 versions of ZG, etc, etc, etc.

And once you settle on each of those many choices now you have to compile all that into a new version using that old stuff.

Then you have to make sure all the mobs and bosses play correctly based on their intended time period; because difficulty level is important to make game play fun and engaging.

Then you have to test that new build on the modern hardware you already got an old build running on because now there will be new bugs to figure out and fix, that compound potentially into new bugs that did not exist before you fixed those other bugs, and so on.

Then you need to test every single class ability to make sure its functioning the way it was intended; trust me this is complicated some times because things do not like to play nice with each other when you're trying and or care.

Then after you have all this sorted out you need to stress test the whole system with more than your small team of internal testers. Now you gotta let players log in from all over the world / country / wherever, this opens up many more problems that could not be tested in a practical way before.

Latency, different ISP's, different OS's and how they respond to the client and in turn the server; all these have an impact on how your game plays.

All of this is time consuming if you want to produce a "Vanilla experience" that mirrors the original while retaining the best versions / preferred versions of the entire 1.xx series.

I really hope that helps as I am feeling a bit under the weather.
12/28/2017 01:47 PMPosted by Harland
That part has actually been accomplished. They have a much more problematic task; I know it does not sound like much but here is the problem. Also Blizzard did higher on a development team just for Classic because of the following challenges


I'm not sure how you are privy to this information. If you're saying it's done because private servers have done it on emulators, I disagree. It means nothing that it's been done by the private server crowd. If you somehow are knowledgeable about Blizzard's internal systems, please do tell.

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