Dev Watercooler = Blizzard backflip

General Discussion
28 min ago

01/24/2018 02:38 PMPosted by Avihindra
Anyone remember, "Bring the player, not the toon"?

That was a Ghostcrawler era ideology that caused more homogenization between classes than they liked. They haven't been designing with that in mind since Warlords.


It was an Ion quote as well during a few of the Q&A sessions he did.
More like the whole class homogenization project was a massive failure from the get go.
01/24/2018 03:28 PMPosted by Frostchi
Even if it's a flip-flop from their previous stance.


Stances o_0??? Oh you mean those special kinda Ginyu force's poses we warriors used to do back in the day....nah they are out of style...yalll

I don't remember using flip flops either while doing them , i always wear full steel boots like today
01/24/2018 03:28 PMPosted by Frostchi
If they plan on making each class more unique, and de-homogenize the game, I think that's a great idea. Even if it's a flip-flop from their previous stance.


Agree but ...

01/24/2018 03:27 PMPosted by Sneakyapple
If they're going to have specific classes counter bosses, the bosses still need to be doable without that class as well.
I dont think they're going to make bosses like that in BFA where if you dont have a warlock you can't banish the demon that wipes the raid!


Has to apply as well.
01/24/2018 03:23 PMPosted by Ihatelife
01/24/2018 03:09 PMPosted by Srath
Class balance should be a priority over uniqueness.


So gameplay should be boring and every class should feel the same?

I don't know....
so they can't balance without making every class play different? this has got to be the dumbest thing i have heard in awhile. cause i'm pretty sure my pally sure as hell don't play like your boring druid does.
01/24/2018 03:09 PMPosted by Srath
Class balance should be a priority over uniqueness.
Your preferred class or spec choice shouldn't cause you to be excluded from doing content. (manual group finder)

This is a good change.

This will minimize Class stacking for one. The flip side of your worry is how many specs were benched so Raid Leaders could stack the FOTM spec/class?
01/24/2018 02:38 PMPosted by Avihindra
Somehow I doubt that Blizzard has thought this

Well, this sums blizz development train "thought" process for the past 4 years.
01/24/2018 03:29 PMPosted by Wariya
For a warlock, i can see why you like to bake
Baking stuff for your group is the entire point of your class isn't it??


It's not just warlocks. I've been known to enjoy baking myself.
01/24/2018 02:38 PMPosted by Avihindra
Just finished reading the Dev Watercooler over on MMO-Champ.
The first thing I got from it is the MASSIVE backflip Blizzard is doing.
Anyone remember, "Bring the player, not the toon"?
Well that little idea is now thrown out the window because they want class specific abilities that no-one else can do. They are talking about designing encounters to have mechanics that only 1 or maybe 2 classes can address. Can anyone see the size of the bench that this will require.
Not to mention pug/small guild groups. "Oh we don't have class X to do that wipe-raid-mechanic, looks like we are going to have to call the raid there guys".
Somehow I doubt that Blizzard has thought this all the way through to conclusion.


More evidence that BfA wil be the absolute worst expansion by far and proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ion has to be fired. Designing instances that require certain classes just screams " lets find a way to get the players to increase are MAU/DAU by forcing them to play classes they may not want to normally".

Blizzard is such a joke compared to what they once were
Welp, I guess I'm taking BfA off.

Blizzard hates warlocks so much, our singular use will be just to provide cookies, which will of course have the prerequisite nerf (Use: Restore 100% of your life for 10 seconds. After 10 seconds, you die).
01/24/2018 04:01 PMPosted by Guyota
01/24/2018 02:38 PMPosted by Avihindra
Just finished reading the Dev Watercooler over on MMO-Champ.
The first thing I got from it is the MASSIVE backflip Blizzard is doing.
Anyone remember, "Bring the player, not the toon"?
Well that little idea is now thrown out the window because they want class specific abilities that no-one else can do. They are talking about designing encounters to have mechanics that only 1 or maybe 2 classes can address. Can anyone see the size of the bench that this will require.
Not to mention pug/small guild groups. "Oh we don't have class X to do that wipe-raid-mechanic, looks like we are going to have to call the raid there guys".
Somehow I doubt that Blizzard has thought this all the way through to conclusion.


More evidence that BfA wil be the absolute worst expansion by far and proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ion has to be fired. Designing instances that require certain classes just screams " lets find a way to get the players to increase are MAU/DAU by forcing them to play classes they may not want to normally".

Blizzard is such a joke compared to what they once were


Well they did it in BRF Mythic and the sky didn't fall. I doubt they'll require classes for fights outside mythic raids.

Also I'm really skeptical about MAUs or DAUs having any influence on this change.

I feel like most people are using these terms incorrectly, which invalidates their points somewhat.

MAU is Monthly Active Users. That's how many people logged in once or more in a single month. The leveling changes aren't going to change MAUs to a significant degree.

Even increasing the amount of time it takes to do something like gain a single level isn't going to affect the Daily Active Users. You were going to log in anyway, whether it takes you 33 minutes per level or 40 minutes.

01/24/2018 03:40 PMPosted by Avihindra
28 min ago

01/24/2018 02:38 PMPosted by Avihindra
Anyone remember, "Bring the player, not the toon"?

That was a Ghostcrawler era ideology that caused more homogenization between classes than they liked. They haven't been designing with that in mind since Warlords.


It was an Ion quote as well during a few of the Q&A sessions he did.


Something Ion said was a mistake at the start of Warlords. If you're upset with them "backflipping" on that, you missed the boat by almost four years.
That whole discussion in the Dev Watercooler about unique abilities/utility only seems to apply to raid content, and at least somewhat serious raiding at that, where not having the proper utility players would be a significant hurdle. But for pugs or dungeons, raising the bar that high would just preclude even more people from doing it, as you'd spend as much time forming a group and participating in the group to do the actual content.

Besides, you couldn't have dungeon mechanics that could only be solved/handled by one or a couple specs/classes, because that would kill off random dungeon queues. Who would want a random group that couldn't deal with a dungeon boss' mechanic due to bad RNG on the group makeup. Or significantly increased queue times so that they could ensure that you had a group makeup that could handle the mechanic, at least in theory.

If they want to prioritize utility, they could go back to the days where using cc in a dungeon was a priority, if not an outright necessity, and give lots of specs/classes a useful CC ability. But to have unique mechanics that can be solved by a limited number of classes/specs is just going to result in a majority of players just not even attempting to do the content.

Frankly, that approach they describe seems totally geared toward the "raiding is all that matters" type of mindset as opposed to the "let's let the vast majority of players be capable of doing the vast majority of content" mindset.

Besides, at the end of the day, whatever name they attach to this philosophy just becomes the "buzzword" of the expansion like "class fantasy" was for Legion, which means that buzzword/buzzphrase can be used for justifying whatever decisions they make, even if there are contradictory decisions being made for different classes/specs.
What I get from it is pvp is about to get screwed again and we are about to get a ton of stuns.
I think you are missing the real point of 'bring the player, not the class'. Back in the early days of WoW the viability between classes was enormous. If you were a protection paladin, for example, nobody wanted you. Even going into TBC when classes and specs were brought closer together, there were still instances of a class bringing a specific utility that was simply too powerful. If you raided, you *needed* at least one shaman. Bloodlust and windfury totem were just way too good.

Classes should have their differences, yes, but no class should have a utility or difference so overwhelmingly powerful that your raid is severely gimped for not having it. People should still prioritize bringing the player and not the class, so people can freely choose what they want to play, but what they play should also bring something cool to the table too.

It's a delicate balance.
Ion has been waiting his entire WoW life to dumpster his bosses' ideas
Back...peddle?

A backflip is an impressive stunt. Backpeddling is when you go back on what you said or did.
01/24/2018 03:47 PMPosted by Pallydoll
01/24/2018 03:23 PMPosted by Ihatelife
...

So gameplay should be boring and every class should feel the same?

I don't know....
so they can't balance without making every class play different? this has got to be the dumbest thing i have heard in awhile. cause i'm pretty sure my pally sure as hell don't play like your boring druid does.

No, they can't. Unless everything is exactly identical you will never see perfect balance. It's not actually possible.

And WoW has far, far too many variables to make everyone even and balanced. The best they can do is a combination of, "close enough," and, "good for this style of fight, but not another," type balance. Otherwise, it's just a flow as things rise and fall in a hope that nothing stays too high or too low for too long.

The thing is, gamers are mini-maxers. If something looks a couple percent better, the top elite will do it, and the sheep will follow.

You don't, for example, need all ranged multi dotters on M Coven. But if you wanted to win the world first race you did. And what people remember is the comps in the world first race, not all the comps that completed it afterwards.

It is stupid however, to believe that balance at a level that will make everyone happy is remotely possible without making everything identical. (which won't make people happy for other reasons.)
Ugh, this team is not skilled enough to pull this off. Remember when spec identity was the buzz word and we were going to have unique specs but wound up with classes feeling the same. We're going to have some classes with all the tools and some classes with nothing...or something. No way this short bus dev team doesn't make this a massive debacle.
Just means im going to have to pay even more attention to the beta to make sure my BFA main starts out and hopeful remains relevant.
01/24/2018 04:04 PMPosted by Rubedo
Welp, I guess I'm taking BfA off.

Blizzard hates warlocks so much, our singular use will be just to provide cookies, which will of course have the prerequisite nerf (Use: Restore 100% of your life for 10 seconds. After 10 seconds, you die).


Dufuq?

Warlocks have been a dominant dps for almost the whole expansion (not NH) and a dominant pvp class since rated PvP was implemented in TBC.

Warlocks are rocking all aspects of the game right now.

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