Can’t we just be “bad guys?”

Story Forum
Together we shall avail this world of the wicked…
*crunch munch nomnomnom*
Ew stop that will you!
For the sake of Azeroth and the Light: The Alliance and Horde shall cleanse…
*scrunchy munchy nomnom*
Ugh I give up! The Forsaken are Evil – (well duh!)
Cannibalism kinda negates any sort of lawful goodness my character does…thank goodness!
My narrative point being that I often feel as a Forsaken that we are pigeon holed into a campaign of goodness when my dark heart wants to act differently.
Not speaking for Horde in general – though there could be similar comparisons for other races.
when did you stop being bad guys
Don't touch me. I'm ev0l.
If I could join N'zoth, I would.
Cannibalism isn't evil. It's an exercise of my religious freedom.

Look, I'll even take out your soul and keep it safe in this head I shrunk.
I wish there were more draenei like Interrogator Khan.
You know, I've checked these forums for years and one thing I don't believe I'll ever understand is how bent people get when their chosen faction or race does something irrevocably evil or in the worst case, slightly grey.

I get that a good portion of people want to act out the hero that they've been praised as since inception, that makes sense - I get it. But.. if your chosen faction or race make no errors, has no lapse in judgment, no flaws, no incorrect convictions, and starts no questionable conflict.. isn't that just a little bit boring?

I'm not hating, I'm just expressing that I legitimately don't see the appeal. My favorite playable race in the game are orcs, for a variety of reasons. However, I am not an orc. I am not so attached to my orc (whose name is not Matthèw IC, disclaimer!) that I'm all that bothered when an orc or a number of orcs do something atrocious. It's all a part of the ride, yea?

So anyway, more on topic: OP, I get your feels. I quite concur.
01/17/2018 09:20 PMPosted by Matthèw
You know, I've checked these forums for years and one thing I don't believe I'll ever understand is how bent people get when their chosen faction or race does something irrevocably evil or in the worst case, slightly grey.

I get that a good portion of people want to act out the hero that they've been praised as since inception, that makes sense - I get it. But.. if your chosen faction or race make no errors, has no lapse in judgment, no flaws, no incorrect convictions, and starts no questionable conflict.. isn't that just a little bit boring?

I'm not hating, I'm just expressing that I legitimately don't see the appeal. My favorite playable race in the game are orcs, for a variety of reasons. However, I am not an orc. I am not so attached to my orc (whose name is not Matthèw IC, disclaimer!) that I'm all that bothered when an orc or a number of orcs do something atrocious. It's all a part of the ride, yea?

So anyway, more on topic: OP, I get your feels. I quite concur.


Is it wrong to care about things?
01/17/2018 09:20 PMPosted by Matthèw
You know, I've checked these forums for years and one thing I don't believe I'll ever understand is how bent people get when their chosen faction or race does something irrevocably evil or in the worst case, slightly grey.

I get that a good portion of people want to act out the hero that they've been praised as since inception, that makes sense - I get it. But.. if your chosen faction or race make no errors, has no lapse in judgment, no flaws, no incorrect convictions, and starts no questionable conflict.. isn't that just a little bit boring?

I'm not hating, I'm just expressing that I legitimately don't see the appeal. My favorite playable race in the game are orcs, for a variety of reasons. However, I am not an orc. I am not so attached to my orc (whose name is not Matthèw IC, disclaimer!) that I'm all that bothered when an orc or a number of orcs do something atrocious. It's all a part of the ride, yea?

So anyway, more on topic: OP, I get your feels. I quite concur.


What is this? Reason? Rationality? This doesn't belong here at all!
01/17/2018 10:57 PMPosted by Myrothan
01/17/2018 09:20 PMPosted by Matthèw
You know, I've checked these forums for years and one thing I don't believe I'll ever understand is how bent people get when their chosen faction or race does something irrevocably evil or in the worst case, slightly grey.

I get that a good portion of people want to act out the hero that they've been praised as since inception, that makes sense - I get it. But.. if your chosen faction or race make no errors, has no lapse in judgment, no flaws, no incorrect convictions, and starts no questionable conflict.. isn't that just a little bit boring?

I'm not hating, I'm just expressing that I legitimately don't see the appeal. My favorite playable race in the game are orcs, for a variety of reasons. However, I am not an orc. I am not so attached to my orc (whose name is not Matthèw IC, disclaimer!) that I'm all that bothered when an orc or a number of orcs do something atrocious. It's all a part of the ride, yea?

So anyway, more on topic: OP, I get your feels. I quite concur.


Is it wrong to care about things?


Not in the slightest. At what point is the line drawn, though? Obviously anyone who has put a year, two years, five years, a decade or more into the game is going to have a certain level of endearment attached to it. I met my wife in WoW, so naturally there is a great deal of sentimental value involved.

However, people take their issues with whatever narrative direction the game takes to a very scary level sometimes. Outright hating a fictional race and attacking the players that play them based on the story the game provides is a bit extreme, and that happens fairly regularly. I've talked to people out of game that has had genuine disdain toward me for playing Alliance when I first began. A bit much, imo.
I don't know if you have noticed but the Bad Guys lose in this game so unless you want to end the expansion crushed beneath your enemies heel, there really isn't much value in being the 'bad guy'.
01/17/2018 11:03 PMPosted by Matthèw
Not in the slightest. At what point is the line drawn, though? Obviously anyone who has put a year, two years, five years, a decade or more into the game is going to have a certain level of endearment attached to it. I met my wife in WoW, so naturally there is a great deal of sentimental value involved.

However, people take their issues with whatever narrative direction the game takes to a very scary level sometimes. Outright hating a fictional race and attacking the players that play them based on the story the game provides is a bit extreme, and that happens fairly regularly. I've talked to people out of game that has had genuine disdain toward me for playing Alliance when I first began. A bit much, imo.


Why is that scary? No one is going to attack you irl over this. For all the wacky news headlines that come around I've literally never seen a horde vs alliance one. That literal disdain isn't for you as a person, but for your choice. Beyond WoW talk that disdain shouldn't exist. Besides in banter, of course. Still, I don't think people being passionate about a stories direction is wrong, and putting yourself in your mains shoes to think about issues from their perspective can be fun.
01/18/2018 02:54 AMPosted by Myrothan
01/17/2018 11:03 PMPosted by Matthèw
Not in the slightest. At what point is the line drawn, though? Obviously anyone who has put a year, two years, five years, a decade or more into the game is going to have a certain level of endearment attached to it. I met my wife in WoW, so naturally there is a great deal of sentimental value involved.

However, people take their issues with whatever narrative direction the game takes to a very scary level sometimes. Outright hating a fictional race and attacking the players that play them based on the story the game provides is a bit extreme, and that happens fairly regularly. I've talked to people out of game that has had genuine disdain toward me for playing Alliance when I first began. A bit much, imo.


Why is that scary? No one is going to attack you irl over this. For all the wacky news headlines that come around I've literally never seen a horde vs alliance one. That literal disdain isn't for you as a person, but for your choice. Beyond WoW talk that disdain shouldn't exist. Besides in banter, of course. Still, I don't think people being passionate about a stories direction is wrong, and putting yourself in your mains shoes to think about issues from their perspective can be fun.


Am I afraid that someone is going to attack me irl over a video game? No. Do think that it's troubling to think of how serious some people take it? Yes. I can't take it that seriously even if I try, which is the original thought I was expressing in my first post.

I haven't objected to anyone displaying a passion for their favorite aspects of the game, or opposing what they enjoy. There are plenty of people who take things to a personal level very quickly, and I have a hard time fathoming how someone can get that heated over it.

As to your comments on headlines, there's been numerous conflicts between players of opposing factions over the years - most notably at Blizzcon. It's hardly relevant though; the point I was making is that I don't get all the anger and arguments. I suppose it's a difference of perspective. I'll enjoy the ride whether it's my favorites being praised as heroes or condemned as villains. Either way I'll get my 15/mo worth.

Edit: to clarify, when I said attacking, I was referring to verbally abusing or harassing another person for something as trivial as a choice in a video game.
I for one agree with burn undercity and remove any undead thing from the face of Azeroth
01/17/2018 01:02 PMPosted by Haella
Cannibalism kinda negates any sort of lawful goodness my character does…thank goodness!


The science fiction author Heinlein argued that we revile cannibalism because we're not civilized, not because we are. And if you ask anyone about why cannibalism is reviled you will find their rationalizations fall into two categories, either insurmountable cultural taboo, or fear your neighbors will eat you. The first, when taken alone, amounts to nothing more than mindless social inertia, the second is an indictment of exactly how civilized you really think your neighbor is. Neither puts either you or your neighbor in a particularly civilized light.

But onto the original topic. They're not going to write a separate story for a single race in the Horde. The most you can hope for is to giggle a little to yourself and whisper, "These rubes don't even realize...." while you engage in 'heroics' to protect and strengthen your nation.
01/18/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Syriyna
there really isn't much value in being the 'bad guy'.

The bad guys always have the best theme songs, so there's that.

https://youtu.be/tWYCS6k1IOA
I view the Forsaken the way I viewed Walter White in the show Breaking Bad. I thought he was a horrible, evil, maniacal mess of a person who reacted poorly to a very bad situation (cancer). He constantly justifies doing the things he does as a solution to make things better, even though they always make things worse for both him, and those he cares about.

I absolutely LOVED the character, but hated and despised the person. I wanted nothing more than for him to fail in the end, and wanted him to die horribly after every episode. BUT!!! I found myself rooting for this monster to succeed simply because the antagonists of the show were even worse than him! I wanted him to take them out first. Plus, it was highly entertaining to watch the story of this evil person unfold.

I view Sylvanas similarly. She is victim to a horrible situation, who always ends up making things worse for herself and others. She’s always justifying every evil thing she does as necessary in the long run. I LOVE her character. I actually feel bad for the condition both she and the Forsaken are afflicted with. I am rooting for them to succed right now, but ultimately want the to utterly fail.

There are a few exceptions, but the Undead are evil for the most part. Most of them can’t actually feel positive emotions, and I don’t think they are even capable of viewing the lives of others as important since the curse dulls their senses.
@ Cynomys - I fully agree that a hero or villain that elicits an emotion is great!

@ Gibbet - I agree that "writing a separate story for a single race..." isn't functional, but the Horde's vision is clouded in different moralities and often doesn't make sense:
Tauren =/= Undead. A splintering of philosophies if you will.

Maybe playing "bad guys" would add a different aspect "spice" to the game:
Star Wars - Jedi vs Sith?

I thought that we may be heading that direction with Light vs Void but Alleria (bless her heart) threw that theory to the wind. Can't have a favorite being evil.
01/18/2018 02:27 PMPosted by Haella
Maybe playing "bad guys" would add a different aspect "spice" to the game:


Bit late for that.

They've already billed the Horde and Alliance as heroic factions fighting to keep their people safe in a dangerous world. SW:ToR they built the Sith as villains from day 1 and at level 1. If they tried that now the bait/switch whiplash would probably ruin the Horde.
01/17/2018 09:20 PMPosted by Matthèw
You know, I've checked these forums for years and one thing I don't believe I'll ever understand is how bent people get when their chosen faction or race does something irrevocably evil or in the worst case, slightly grey.

I get that a good portion of people want to act out the hero that they've been praised as since inception, that makes sense - I get it. But.. if your chosen faction or race make no errors, has no lapse in judgment, no flaws, no incorrect convictions, and starts no questionable conflict.. isn't that just a little bit boring?

I'm not hating, I'm just expressing that I legitimately don't see the appeal. My favorite playable race in the game are orcs, for a variety of reasons. However, I am not an orc. I am not so attached to my orc (whose name is not Matthèw IC, disclaimer!) that I'm all that bothered when an orc or a number of orcs do something atrocious. It's all a part of the ride, yea?

So anyway, more on topic: OP, I get your feels. I quite concur.


I don't have an issue with the faction doing evil or conflict-causing stuff, I just want it to make SENSE and not feel like my faction's been slapped with the villain/idiot bat.

*sighs about Garrosh* he could've been a good character if they'd just finished the WC3 redemption arc and played up the notion Thrall had "overcorrected", instead of his ideology being "Ew races other than orcs are weak and lame", he was raised by Geyah for crying out loud *grumble grumble*

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