Are you a Target or a Tourist?

Classic Discussion
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01/21/2018 02:27 PMPosted by Mogar
01/21/2018 02:11 PMPosted by Starman
I put myself into the "succeed longer" camp. I want Classic just as badly as everyone else, but I know that it would help if Blizzard would fix a few things that made a lot of us upset back in 2005.

I find the "no changes" crowd incredibly short-sighted.
"I think there will be a lot of tourists," he adds. "But it doesn’t matter what I think because once we’re committed to doing this at a Blizzard level, which we are, whatever happens is going to happen. If millions of people show up and play for years, that’s awesome. And if just tens of people show up and play for years, we’re fine either way. What’s important to us is that we have this Classic experience people can enjoy, that people do have the opportunity to go back to. This is an important game in videogame history and there’s not a way to go back and experience that today. This is also about preserving something that we think is really important." - J. Allen Brack

Do you not understand that Blizzard is more interested in recreating the Vanilla experience than having some massive appeal? They'd be content with 'tens of people'. What else do they need to say? At one point do tourists accept what Blizzard is delivering here? Everything they say talks about an exact recreation. They talk about preserving history. They're treating Classic as a work of art.

Like I said: it doesn't matter what you want it to be. It is what it is. That's the target vs. tourist argument. People who accept that reality, and those who don't. It's not about being divisive or disrespecting others' opinions. It's simply that...those opinions don't matter. That's not what Classic is about.


"Tens of people". Sure a billion dollar a year company got the green light to rebuild a decade old game from the board of directors for a possibility that only "tens of people" might show up.... Oh and the work involved is supposed to be quite tedious and time consuming. Which means costly...uh huh. Oh not to mention a solid wall of no for a decade. Now "it's an important piece of gaming history"....

Lol. If you buy that BS then I have some nice ocean front property on the moon I'm selling.

This is a PR statement. If it wasn't obvious to some of you I hope this clears it up.

The target is anyone who will pay. We all know this is going to be successful. There is a line for change and it's bugs and exploits.
Yes guild banks would stop some exploitive behavior so I consider them an exploit fix.
01/22/2018 02:14 PMPosted by Uncletim
"Tens of people". Sure a billion dollar a year company got the green light to rebuild a decade old game from the board of directors for a possibility that only "tens of people" might show up.... Oh and the work involved is supposed to be quite tedious and time consuming. Which means costly...uh huh. Oh not to mention a solid wall of no for a decade. Now "it's an important piece of gaming history"....

Lol. If you buy that BS then I have some nice ocean front property on the moon I'm selling.

This is a PR statement. If it wasn't obvious to some of you I hope this clears it up.

The target is anyone who will pay. We all know this is going to be successful. There is a line for change and it's bugs and exploits.
Yes guild banks would stop some exploitive behavior so I consider them an exploit fix.
I don't understand this sentiment that assumes Blizzard is lying when they make statements like this. Obviously they're a business and businesses exist to make money. But Brack said what he said. It's not up to you to claim whether he's sincere or full of !@#$. What difference does it make either way?

The point I'm trying to make is simply people are ignoring the stated goals of Classic. If Ion and Brack had said something like, 'The game has advanced in many ways between Vanilla and Legion, and we seek to explore and implement changes that make sense.'...then I wouldn't be making the case I am. In fact, I wouldn't be here at all since I'd have no interest in Classic if that was the case. But that's literally the opposite of what's been said. So what I see is actual, useful threads discussing changes between 1.1 and 1.12.1 getting buried in a sea of misguided threads and troll attempts. I'm just trying to do my little part in negating that. Ironically probably making it worse by feeding the trolls.
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Exactly

And as far as the link that keeps getting tossed out I really think whoever that was used a really bad example as to what should be discussed. I think they asked about the graphics because overall it doesn't change much other than how you view things, but also because Ray Cobo works with the art team on Live, so that probably is interesting to him.

You can clearly see in the rest of the interview and from other statements since then by people higher up than he is that Vanilla system changes and the like aren't things they are looking to modify, thus the quote about Mages needing to sit and drink after they get done buffing and the wart that is and how it should remain.

Outside of infrastructure changes, and maybe graphics because they will probably need that in there anyways to run on the newer infrastructure so it is an option, I just don't see them making a ton of wholesale changes. Like I said it would defeat the purpose as they have stated it, and it would increase their cost.

I'm still on the fence as to whether they are doing this even expecting a profit, or if someone higher up decided they wanted it so they are going to do it anyways.


Profit. And probably to pull people off private servers because they know that can't be completely controlled.


I don't think so. Software Engineers are expensive - especially full time. And it isn't just their salary. Insurance, 401k matching, random benefits, union fees, etc all make the actual cost per employee closer to 300-400k a year. This isn't even counting hardware, infrastructure, etc. Let's say they have a team of 10 people on Classic alone. Even with 300k paying subscribers - profit will be difficult.

I think Blizzard is doing this as an investment. Keep potential buyers in the know how so that when new products come out, they could be paying customers.

Advertising + Exposure = Increased future cash flow
01/22/2018 06:07 PMPosted by Xanthak
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Profit. And probably to pull people off private servers because they know that can't be completely controlled.


I don't think so. Software Engineers are expensive - especially full time. And it isn't just their salary. Insurance, 401k matching, random benefits, union fees, etc all make the actual cost per employee closer to 300-400k a year. This isn't even counting hardware, infrastructure, etc. Let's say they have a team of 10 people on Classic alone. Even with 300k paying subscribers - profit will be difficult.

I think Blizzard is doing this as an investment. Keep potential buyers in the know how so that when new products come out, they could be paying customers.

Advertising + Exposure = Increased future cash flow


Good points.

It does seem odd that they're spending all this time and money and said that they'd keep it up for only a few people. Of course, I don't know how a handful of people could make the same seem alive.

Spitballing, how much of an investment do you think this'll be? $500k? Probably more.
I laugh at you all because I'm skeptical of what Classic is, or "vanilla". To me, "vanilla" or classic is just the content. So for all we know, we might just have a server with classic content that has ALL THE RACES AND CLASSES. We have ZERO INFORMATION other then patches, and how "difficult" it'll be, and my favorite quote "as close to vanilla as possible". This could mean ANYTHING. TBC races could be "vanilla" by there stand point for all we know. Reasons why you all should be more skeptical of what they plan on doing. Heck, might even have Cata class restrictions. We know NOTHING. Other then a copy past statement from Blizzcon.
01/21/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Oriendaria
01/21/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Anitharia
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So according to you we should change Classic because people were asking for changes in Vanilla? You have some twisted logic there.

You have some twisted logic too. Telling people they shouldn't apply a change because it "wasn't there".


There's no twisted logic there. We want vanilla, they promised vanilla. If it wasn't in vanilla, it's no vanilla.
How is that twisted? Stop trying to move the goalpost and say something intelligent, or go back to retail.
01/22/2018 02:14 PMPosted by Uncletim
"Tens of people". Sure a billion dollar a year company got the green light to rebuild a decade old game from the board of directors for a possibility that only "tens of people" might show up....

They spin it better than a negative nancy.

He didn't say "if only tens of people show up". He said "tens of people show up and play for years". They expect far far more to show up in the early days. Several hundred thousand minimum based on how many signed a petition and how many never got involved with illegal private servers but have over all these years asked for a way to pay vanilla again. (In fact, there's been comments about other Blizzard employees who've been asking from within as well.)

They also aren't looking for numbers alone. World of Warcraft isn't even the king of the numbers - players or income. Overwatch is Blizzard's big title right now. Legion barely made a blip in the reports because Overwatch was such a hit. And Overwatch is also the big eSports push they've got right now, with recent news of a major company signing in for the League.

World of Warcraft is just one of multiple franchises at this point. Starcraft, Diablo, Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm, and Overwatch - they all have their own audiences.

So what value are the players coming to try out WOW: Classic when it releases, if they're unlikely to be more than a million, compared to their current count of "monthly active users" which is in the 40 million range?

Well, that number actually counts some people two or more times. If I play two of their titles in a month, I count as two MAU. And I'm here, still semi-active even if I refuse to add game time to WOW: Retail. I play HotS. I sometimes get in a mood to do some dungeons on a level 20 on a Starter Account. I might want to jump in and do some Diablo 2 or replay some WC3 campaigns, or see how SC plays now.

What about the many people who walked away from Blizzard? There've been over 100 million World of Warcraft accounts created over the years. At it's highest it had 12.5 million active players. It's wishful thinking to imagine it's anywhere near that at this point. Even allowing for illegally bought accounts, accounts lost to compromises and bans, people who only ever played the free month and decided it wasn't for them, that is tens of MILLIONS of accounts.

If a tenth of those hear about WOW: Classic in some way, shape or form by the time it is released and can be encouraged to try it out, they download the Blizzard Launcher to get started. They see the list of all the other game titles. Perhaps they've heard of this one or that one, and now that it's right there, why not give it a try. Several are free downloads or have trials.

It's exposure. It's a broader audience. Even if people decide it's not for them, they might be more aware when they hear a news blurb about Overwatch League, or a few years out when a new project is announced. They might not want to play, but maybe they'll walk away less disappointed in Blizzard than they originally did.

So, yes, I think Blizzard sold the idea just fine to the board of directors.
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I don't think so. Software Engineers are expensive - especially full time. And it isn't just their salary. Insurance, 401k matching, random benefits, union fees, etc all make the actual cost per employee closer to 300-400k a year. This isn't even counting hardware, infrastructure, etc. Let's say they have a team of 10 people on Classic alone. Even with 300k paying subscribers - profit will be difficult.

I think Blizzard is doing this as an investment. Keep potential buyers in the know how so that when new products come out, they could be paying customers.

Advertising + Exposure = Increased future cash flow


Good points.

It does seem odd that they're spending all this time and money and said that they'd keep it up for only a few people. Of course, I don't know how a handful of people could make the same seem alive.

Spitballing, how much of an investment do you think this'll be? $500k? Probably more.


Yeah dunno. But infrastructure isn't cheap. Keep in mind it isn't just a handful of server. It could be hundreds with replicas in different data centers across the world. And it needs to be up 24/7. On top of that you have networking, data storage, etc. AND you need to hire people to maintain that stuff.

That being said, i don't see Classic really dying out to only a handful of people. To this day, people are still playing private servers. And there will be people who play retail dabbling in it during the "dead" times - when people typically unsub for a period of time. From what I remember, retail goes through peaks and valleys when it comes to sub numbers.
Alright so I just went and made a BS trial account to see how things are after their latest patch, here are my findings. For this trial I played a Tauren Druid to level 20 solo with a dungeon run through RFC, WC, and SFK.

Graphics / Effects / Animations: I enjoyed all the above, the game was much easier on the eyes, I really enjoyed exploring some of their new scenery and the way combat looked with a caster. All the above listed I would be perfectly fine with making its way to Classic.

Battlenet: Didn't really get much use of this since you can't add folks on trail account but from when I played WoD, I liked the BattleNet integration. Better account security and easier to keep track of friends and their 42 alts.

Combat: As mentioned above I did enjoy the effects, as far as difficulty, it was mind numbing and boring, even with their latest patch. I tested lvl 5, 10, 15, and 20 to see how survivability was using quest and dungeon drops only. At every level I was comfortably able to solo 4-6 mobs with no fear of dying as a Balance Druid. I could never get more together because they started dying at that point from DOTs. I took on multiple elites without ever losing even 1/4 of my HP which is pathetic. Summary, combat still blows and mobs need significant dmg buff.

Questing: I enjoyed the more frequent drops when questing (killing 20 Zhevras for 4 hoofs was aids in Vanilla) and also the fact that someone couldn't snake mobs who had quest items. As long as I hit them, I could still loot. This is also a con, doesn't encourage grouping and player interaction. Quest helper was good and bad, made things more efficient but really took out the thinking behind everything, would rather not see it.

Dungeons: With each one of my dungeons I went in hoping for a good fight, all I have read on the forums is how hard they are now and teams wiping 4 times in WC. I steam rolled both dungeons while healing as Resto Druid. The time they took felt appropriate, the xp given from the first dungeon run and all quests turned in was on par IMO. Dungeons weren't meant to be spammed for XP. Still the difficulty was WAY to EASY. My tank (Warrior) was able to pull 2 camps (roughly 6 mobs) at a time and never drop below half hp even with me throwing in dmg spells while healing. I never once thought I would run out of mana.

Community: Sucked !@# as expected, during this journey I met one guy. Friendly dude, we chatted for a few minutes, talked about Classic, were both hyped, /Moo'd at eachother and off we went our separate ways. Every dungeon run I tried to be friendly and start conversations to no a veil. At one point I mentioned the game still felt to easy and mob dmg needed a 30-50% dmg buff and was kindly greeted by 2 party members with a "oh shut up" followed by them griping the rest of the dungeon "god this is taking to long"

Summary: Will I resubscribe? NO. What would it take for me to resubscribe?? Fresh realm, no cross realm or sharding, no LFD / LFR, flying needs to be removed from Vanilla content, Xmog needs to go. Everything else I found tolerable and something I could find myself enjoying. Mobs need increased dmg, XP and HP need to stay as are, Heirloom stats need to remain but XP buff needs to be returned to normal value.
01/22/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Mogar
01/22/2018 02:14 PMPosted by Uncletim
"Tens of people". Sure a billion dollar a year company got the green light to rebuild a decade old game from the board of directors for a possibility that only "tens of people" might show up.... Oh and the work involved is supposed to be quite tedious and time consuming. Which means costly...uh huh. Oh not to mention a solid wall of no for a decade. Now "it's an important piece of gaming history"....

Lol. If you buy that BS then I have some nice ocean front property on the moon I'm selling.

This is a PR statement. If it wasn't obvious to some of you I hope this clears it up.

The target is anyone who will pay. We all know this is going to be successful. There is a line for change and it's bugs and exploits.
Yes guild banks would stop some exploitive behavior so I consider them an exploit fix.
I don't understand this sentiment that assumes Blizzard is lying when they make statements like this. Obviously they're a business and businesses exist to make money. But Brack said what he said. It's not up to you to claim whether he's sincere or full of !@#$. What difference does it make either way?

The point I'm trying to make is simply people are ignoring the stated goals of Classic. If Ion and Brack had said something like, 'The game has advanced in many ways between Vanilla and Legion, and we seek to explore and implement changes that make sense.'...then I wouldn't be making the case I am. In fact, I wouldn't be here at all since I'd have no interest in Classic if that was the case. But that's literally the opposite of what's been said. So what I see is actual, useful threads discussing changes between 1.1 and 1.12.1 getting buried in a sea of misguided threads and troll attempts. I'm just trying to do my little part in negating that. Ironically probably making it worse by feeding the trolls.


This post is a troll post! It's meant for no other reason than to cause a reaction. Trolling is kind of like breaking the ice. It is basically a conversation starter.

Those stated goals have been conflicted and murky since the blizz did the little talking they did do.

Yes and part of the goal is a blizzard quality vanilla experience. This is a very general and broad statement and could mean anything from security, server stability, replayability, and yes even profitability on blizzards end. Among many other things as well.

Only blizzard knows why they waited to make certain changes to the game. I understand what you are saying but it was not just the players asking who made the game change. Some things were literally needed and they waited to use those changes as content for later expansions. Like the guild bank.

I am by no means asking to add every single post change to vanilla. Nor am I asking for legion capped at 60 and naxx.
I do feel there are a couple of things that should be addressed. Guild banks and tweaking the numbers so the mobs/raids have a vanilla feel to them. I'm also open to gold sinks/lot drops being adjusted to keep the economy healthy. Bugs/exploits should be fixed and fire this baby up to she what she can do!!

One wish I have is for the "blacklist" to actually be added to the game and if you are scurvy enough to make it you become attackable by both factions. Lol. Ok that's just dreaming and a logistical nightmare....
I'm a Tourist in the sense I am open to making some changes and updates to the game as long as the core components: community, difficulty, progression, is NOT compromised.

I'm totally the target here though... I had the best time in WoW raiding, PvPing in AV, scraping with people in BRM. I stopped logging in completely to retail after the Blizzcon announcement.

I will probably get BfA when it releases just to see how it plays ( and my Blizzard statue reminds me that I've never truly "quit" WoW) but other than cursory play to probably see some off cinematics, I don't think my place is in current WoW anymore. Pretty much after MoP, I felt the game had changed too much and wasn't fun for me anymore.
I'm target with 1 exception, I do think some changes that have specific security benefits should be considered.

Athenticators are the obvious security feature but guild banks also offer security benefits through removal of the virtual need of account sharing that guild bank alts caused in many guilds.

However just because it offers security benefits isn't an all encompassing "it should be added" we also have to consider how it effects the vanilla experience.

As an example wow tokens cut back on gold farmers and to a degree account hacking, however it negatively effects the economy by a pay to be rich system which results in a rich few (which will also skew the price of stuff in the economy), and thous should not be added.

Looking at this though, and reviewing the guild bank (1 and 2) threads, I have yet to see any aspect guild banks would hurt of the vanilla feel.

And to be clear I'm talking base guild banks from later BC (2.4?), Not guild levels, guild achievements, guild quests, exc. Just the base guild bank.

It strengthens the sense of community inside of guilds.

It provides a reasonable gold sink to help promote a healthy economy (in vanilla gold was rare, this helps keep it that way later into the games life)

It has security benefits for the players and devs. Through it's removal of the virtual need to account share for guild bank alts. And more eyes on the guild assets to respond more quickly to a hacked guild bank.

It has accountability benefits through an in game log so guild members can keep track of what they donate.

It provides QoL benefit for the devs restoring a hacked guild bank vs a hacked toon (because of how toon log vs GB log works it's a lot easier to restore a GB from the perspective of a Dev) which results in a QoL benefit to the players through vastly reduced wait time for that restore.

And it lastly provides general QoL, and the reason I have this as the last reason is because it is the LEAST important of the reasons. I don't feel QoL should be the reason to add a feature. I look at how it effects the aspects of the game: community, security, economy, gameplay, exc. And guild banks benefit every aspect it effects.

Now the one argument I've seen against guild banks is inventory management aspect of vanilla, but this in itself isn't true because of a few reasons.

First being bank alts are a thing, having 1+ bank alts trivialized inventory management to mail items between bank alt and main toons, which really isn't an aspect of gameplay because your logging out and into the game on separate toons, making a toon specifically for bank alt also won't vanish with guild banks.

Second reason, guild banks would cost about the same per tab as they did on initial release, which I believe was like 100g,250g,exc. This was in BC gold, back in vanilla gold is even harder to come by so making a personal guild bank would be extremely exspensive and would likely still result in a bank alt having that guild because your main would be part of a guild for social / pve / pvp reasons, not as an improvised bank alt, you would still be sending things to a bank alt. Sure there's that 1% who play this game purely to play the AH and might never join a true guild, but if there going to play alone and just play the AH I would rather them dump gold into the guild bank gold sink, and again this aspect would be very rare and likely only apply to the people who play purely to play the AH.

Lastly the inventory management argument is wrong because guild banks will have items donated to the guild in it for 99% of the guild banks out there, not your personal storage. So they still perform a different function than what inventory management is supposed to be about, managing YOUR items. The moment you put it into the guild bank it's not nessesarily yours any more, it's the guilds. Edit: on top of that it also adds inventory management on a guild level, so in a sense what it takes away of inventory management from an individual (if at all) it adds a new level of inventory management, on the guild scale.
I'm curious - how long do you "target" people think you're going to last in the game? You get to 60 and then what? Raid? Go to Naxx? THEN what?
01/27/2018 02:18 PMPosted by Starman
I'm curious - how long do you "target" people think you're going to last in the game? You get to 60 and then what? Raid? Go to Naxx? THEN what?

Roll an alt, and do it over?
PVP?
Start a crafting alt, try to get epic recipes?
Roll an alt on the opposing faction and experience things from the other side?
Maybe Blizzard decides to open a TBC Classic server (that would be awesome)?

How does the answer differ if you're a "tourist"? What exactly are you getting at?
01/27/2018 02:18 PMPosted by Starman
I'm curious - how long do you "target" people think you're going to last in the game? You get to 60 and then what? Raid? Go to Naxx? THEN what?


My big time goal is to clear Naxx as I never did in retail Vanilla. I'll spend literally 1+ year /played on my first character, a resto night elf druid, working to that and just enjoying the game in other ways.

Then I'll focus on bringing some alts up to raiding. At some point I'll probably want to push PVP really hard as well, as I only achieved rank 9 in vanilla (on this character I'm posting from).

In vanilla alone, I played ~320 days /played. I will surpass that this time around, but over a much longer duration of time.
01/27/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Lichkings
01/27/2018 02:18 PMPosted by Starman
I'm curious - how long do you "target" people think you're going to last in the game? You get to 60 and then what? Raid? Go to Naxx? THEN what?

Roll an alt, and do it over?
PVP?
Start a crafting alt, try to get epic recipes?
Roll an alt on the opposing faction and experience things from the other side?
Maybe Blizzard decides to open a TBC Classic server (that would be awesome)?

How does the answer differ if you're a "tourist"? What exactly are you getting at?


What I'm getting at is that I'm wondering about how the game is going to fare long-term. I put my time in, hours a day raiding and farming for flasks. I'm not doing that again. I have my T3, I have my achievements. My point is that I'm not sure if there's such a thing as a "target" because everyone is going to play the game differently. I have some goals, and that'll be the end of it. I'm not raiding. I'm not running undead Strat 90 times for my pants again.
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Roll an alt, and do it over?
PVP?
Start a crafting alt, try to get epic recipes?
Roll an alt on the opposing faction and experience things from the other side?
Maybe Blizzard decides to open a TBC Classic server (that would be awesome)?

How does the answer differ if you're a "tourist"? What exactly are you getting at?


What I'm getting at is that I'm wondering about how the game is going to fare long-term. I put my time in, hours a day raiding and farming for flasks. I'm not doing that again. I have my T3, I have my achievements. My point is that I'm not sure if there's such a thing as a "target" because everyone is going to play the game differently. I have some goals, and that'll be the end of it. I'm not raiding. I'm not running undead Strat 90 times for my pants again.

There will be plenty to do in the game, even if nothing is changed.
01/27/2018 02:18 PMPosted by Starman
I'm curious - how long do you "target" people think you're going to last in the game? You get to 60 and then what? Raid? Go to Naxx? THEN what?


Blizzard can do progression servers where after all the content is cleared people have to option to start over on a server with everyone else.
01/27/2018 02:53 PMPosted by Lichkings
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What I'm getting at is that I'm wondering about how the game is going to fare long-term. I put my time in, hours a day raiding and farming for flasks. I'm not doing that again. I have my T3, I have my achievements. My point is that I'm not sure if there's such a thing as a "target" because everyone is going to play the game differently. I have some goals, and that'll be the end of it. I'm not raiding. I'm not running undead Strat 90 times for my pants again.

There will be plenty to do in the game, even if nothing is changed.


I didn't say there wasn't, did I?

I said, that we did a lot of it already. 15 years ago. Are people really going to hard-core raid again? I doubt it.

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