The Horde needs a victory

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02/01/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Fondant
02/01/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Mysteries
While Ashran was stupid, it was equally stupid for both teams. Some Horde grunts talk about their lust to kill alliance, and the Alliance commander talks about his lust to kill Horde.

Nothing says who attacked who, just that the Alliance was in the area first.


Even if that weren't true and this fantasy he has of the Horde starting Ashran were. The portrayal of Alliance and Horde relations in the opening of Legion would indicate that the two factions were just at peace, but were coordinating their efforts.

So the Ashran situation was settled. Bringing this up is even less honest and less relevant than "horde betrayal at the Broken Shore." Hell, even Zerde doesn't try to play this argument anymore.


Zug Zu-...just to chime in, if the peace treaty said no fighting on Azeroth, teeeechnicly they weren't fighting on Azeroth, so no peace was reached. Also this was time travel, so technicly it was before it was signed. And technicly, sense its an alternate dimension, it could mean in the present there was no treaty so....
02/01/2018 10:30 AMPosted by Seebach
01/31/2018 12:13 PMPosted by Carmageddon
Not burning down a tree. The Horde needs a straight-up military victory like the Alliance has in Lordaeron. I don't care if it comes at a high cost, I want to see the Horde face the Alliance in a pitched battle and come out victorious. The red team needs fist pump moments, too.


In this same vein, the alliance needs a victory.

Not reducing the Undercity to rubble. The Alliance needs a straight-up military victory like the Horde has in Darnassus. I don't care if it comes at a high cost, I want to see the Alliance face the Horde in a pitched battle and come out victorious.


I'm confused. That's literally how things will already be playing out for you with the expansion's intro at Capital City.
02/01/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Thormil
This forum, now that I've come to explore it, only cares about hating on the other faction. People complain that blizzard will make all the loses in BfA will be to even, no clear winner. Then they'll complain that it the other faction having one lead ahead so far, oh no! Then they'll complain about how mistreated their faction is, then follow up by saying why their faction is still better then the others. It a mad house I tell you, a mad house!
Welcome to the SF.

We're an endless ride of chaotic meaningless combat.

We're where the faction conflict gets too meta to handle.
02/01/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Mysteries
While Ashran was stupid, it was equally stupid for both teams. Some Horde grunts talk about their lust to kill alliance, and the Alliance commander talks about his lust to kill Horde.

Nothing says who attacked who, just that the Alliance was in the area first.
Not actually sure if this is a troll. That said, the guards seem to say the Horde attacked first.
I do agree it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion, though.
02/01/2018 11:53 AMPosted by Ronstin
Apparently that was a pyrrhic victory, since the army was disbanded, the general thrown off a cliff, and the player threatened, so it doesn't count.


Even if it did count, Cataclysm was 8 years ago. If that's the only example he can come up with, I think we're due for another one.

02/01/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Linting
Zug Zu-...just to chime in, if the peace treaty said no fighting on Azeroth, teeeechnicly they weren't fighting on Azeroth, so no peace was reached. Also this was time travel, so technicly it was before it was signed. And technicly, sense its an alternate dimension, it could mean in the present there was no treaty so....


So what you're saying is Ashran could be even less relevant than originally thought? Well then, the person who brought it up as if it was a refutation for anything should feel even worse about himself.
were just at peace


There was a treaty in place that the horde broke in ashran. There was no mention of alliance/horde meeting up to resettle into a treaty after the fact. The Alliance and Horde showed up on the Broken Isles and ended up helping each other out of both mutual survival.

Regardless, the Alliance/Horde conflict is nonexistent in Legion, save stopping the banshee queen from enslaving Eyir and fulfilling some dark deal that she made with Helya, of which I am unsure if that is even resolved and may come and bite us all later as well as the skirmishing at warden towers.

Blizzard has said plainly, that the Horde has started this war by burning down Teldrassil. We can prove via the words of Varimathras of all people (and confirmed by Sylvanas herself in the Golden preview pamphlet) that she has had plans for Stormwind for a long time.

I'm not sure what is more funnier at this point. The general assumption that the Horde needs another solid victory over the alliance or the fact that you can't even interact with me anymore and would rather talk around me.

It literally makes me chuckle that you have become so inept in your argument that you just want to converse about me with other people.
I ship Ronstin x Seebach.

Ronbach

Seebstin

OTP
02/01/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Seebach
There was a treaty in place that the horde broke in ashran. There was no mention of alliance/horde meeting up to resettle into a treaty after the fact. The Alliance and Horde showed up on the Broken Isles and ended up helping each other out of both mutual survival.


Not fighting eachother is what being at peace means.

02/01/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Seebach
Regardless, the Alliance/Horde conflict is nonexistent in Legion, save stopping the banshee queen from enslaving Eyir and fulfilling some dark deal that she made with Helya, of which I am unsure if that is even resolved and may come and bite us all later as well as the skirmishing at warden towers.


Well yes, faction conflict was nonexistent except for that one specific example that was brought up and is relevant to this discussion and your attempt to spin it so that you don't need to examine the implications. Good observation, useless but good.

02/01/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Seebach
Blizzard has said plainly, that the Horde has started this war by burning down Teldrassil. We can prove via the words of Varimathras of all people (and confirmed by Sylvanas herself in the Golden preview pamphlet) that she has had plans for Stormwind for a long time.


Wow, three lore mistakes in the same paragraph and all of them specially crafted to be biased in favor of the Alliance. This kind of incompetence is almost clever.

1. They didn't say the Horde started the war, they said that Anduin invaded Undercity in response to the burning of Teldrassil.

2. The Sylvanas pamphlet only confirms that Sylvanas has been expecting to need to invade Stormwind.

3. You're getting your information from a Dreadlord who specializes in lying. Brilliant.

02/01/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Seebach
I'm not sure what is more funnier at this point. The general assumption that the Horde needs another solid victory over the alliance or the fact that you can't even interact with me anymore and would rather talk around me.


Well, I'm responding to you directly and fully. Meanwhile you're clipping half a sentence, trying to deflect and bouncing from topic to topic like Donald Trump without a teleprompter. So it's definitely your belief that I'm talking around you, that's the funny thing here. Just not funny in the way you think.

02/01/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Seebach
It literally makes me chuckle that you have become so inept in your argument that you just want to converse about me with other people.


And now it's gone from funny to sad. What happened to you Seebach? You used to be able to read and argue. I mean, you never did either particularly well, but you were better than this. Are you okay?
Hey, I just thought of something!

In the "before" and "after" pictures of Teldrassil, there are clear signs of the aftermath of a battle in Darkshore. And Sylvanas, Saurfang, and (whoever that other figure is) are standing on the battlefield after it's over, which suggests the Horde won. It would still probably be novel-only, but maybe that will at least be a Horde victory without superweapons?
02/01/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Pellex
Hey, I just thought of something!

In the "before" and "after" pictures of Teldrassil, there are clear signs of the aftermath of a battle in Darkshore. And Sylvanas, Saurfang, and (whoever that other figure is) are standing on the battlefield after it's over, which suggests the Horde won. It would still probably be novel-only, but maybe that will at least be a Horde victory without superweapons?


Would depend on how its portrayed. If it concludes with the burning of the tree then its not much different than Theramore (e.g. fighting is going on and then the tree blows up which demoralizes the night elf forces). If they win a battle and then deploy whatever then maybe.
02/01/2018 01:05 PMPosted by Shippyship
Would depend on how its portrayed. If it concludes with the burning of the tree then its not much different than Theramore (e.g. fighting is going on and then the tree blows up which demoralizes the night elf forces). If they win a battle and then deploy whatever then maybe.


My worry would be that it's portrayed as a massively outnumbered force of Night Elves being attacked by surprise and overwhelmed.

The destruction of Undercity is being portrayed as a straight up fight, both sides bringing their best, and the Alliance is being given that win. It's not unreasonable to ask for a straight up fight where both sides bring their best that the Horde wins.
02/01/2018 01:05 PMPosted by Shippyship
If it concludes with the burning of the tree then its not much different than Theramore (e.g. fighting is going on and then the tree blows up which demoralizes the night elf forces). If they win a battle and then deploy whatever then maybe.

It looks like there's some time between the battle and the burning of the tree; the field is virtually empty in the first picture, except for Sylvanas, her pals, and that mysterious wounded elf.

02/01/2018 01:08 PMPosted by Fondant
My worry would be that it's portrayed as a massively outnumbered force of Night Elves being attacked by surprise and overwhelmed.

Oh bah, you're probably right. Sigh.
02/01/2018 01:08 PMPosted by Fondant
02/01/2018 01:05 PMPosted by Shippyship
Would depend on how its portrayed. If it concludes with the burning of the tree then its not much different than Theramore (e.g. fighting is going on and then the tree blows up which demoralizes the night elf forces). If they win a battle and then deploy whatever then maybe.


My worry would be that it's portrayed as a massively outnumbered force of Night Elves being attacked by surprise and overwhelmed.

The destruction of Undercity is being portrayed as a straight up fight, both sides bringing their best, and the Alliance is being given that win. It's not unreasonable to ask for a straight up fight where both sides bring their best that the Horde wins.


If I had to hazard a guess it's going to be a massively outnumbered force of Night Elves being attacked by surprise and overwhelmed because Tyrande is probably the most militarily inept racial leader in the history of the Azeroth despite having 10k + years of experience at it AND having cut her teeth during the War of the Ancients. That "a little patience" scenario had me facepalming almost the entire time ><

This brings me no joy in saying this because I really liked night elves in WC3 and how her character was portrayed there.
02/01/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Seebach
This is how blizzard has set us up.

If you are alliance, you must hate the horde
If you are horde, you must hate the alliance

If for some reason you like both, you have a more favored side than the other.

[/quote]

Actually, they make it hard to even just prefer one side or the other. Faction quests on both sides are totally unfair to the other. They make it hard to not "commit".
02/01/2018 12:06 PMPosted by Samariyu
I ship Ronstin x Seebach.

Ronbach

Seebstin

OTP


Oddly enough, given the complaint he just made about people talking around him like he's not there, Seebach has been ignoring my posts for years. Can't make an OTP out of that, Sam.
02/01/2018 02:52 PMPosted by Ronstin
02/01/2018 12:06 PMPosted by Samariyu
I ship Ronstin x Seebach.

Ronbach

Seebstin

OTP


Oddly enough, given the complaint he just made about people talking around him like he's not there, Seebach has been ignoring my posts for years. Can't make an OTP out of that, Sam.
He's just tsundere.

I...it's not that like you or an-nything Ronstin-kun
02/01/2018 02:52 PMPosted by Ronstin
Can't make an OTP out of that, Sam.
Just. Watch. Me.

I'm an artist, dontcha know?
02/01/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Thormil
This forum, now that I've come to explore it, only cares about hating on the other faction. People complain that blizzard will make all the loses in BfA will be to even, no clear winner. Then they'll complain that it the other faction having one lead ahead so far, oh no! Then they'll complain about how mistreated their faction is, then follow up by saying why their faction is still better then the others. It a mad house I tell you, a mad house!


"But I don't want to go among mad people" Thormil remarked.

"Oh, you can't help that," said Kelrexia. "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."

"How do you know I'm mad?" said Thormil.

"You must be," said Kelrexia "or you wouldn't have come here."
01/31/2018 01:01 PMPosted by Yaden
Agreed. It annoys me that Lordaeron is a standard victory that opens the expac but Teldrassil was done by a WMD in a scenario Horde players may not even get to play through. That's just BS.


Damn, I forgot that burning my home to the ground was about you.

Hopefully us Night Elves get some sort of in game/on screen content about the attempted genocide of our people, but I doubt Blizzard will throw us a bone.
Oh geez...I didn't think my position was that hard to understand.

I want to see a Horde army straight-up defeat an Alliance army. That would be a good feeling, and I play games because they are fun. On Alliance, you get to have that. I would also like to have that experience Horde-side.

Reading about or watching the Horde bomb something, or use the plague, or whatever, isn't fun for me. If anything, it's a bit embarrassing. It also seems (story-wise) a little odd that, since Cataclysm, the mighty Horde basically only wins when they employ subterfuge or super weapons.

I'm watching the Siege of Lordaeron, and thinking "Hmmm...that's cool. Wish I could experience that on my main character."

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