Denied Guild app bc Tank DPS

Warrior
Has anyone heard of this before? I was denied from a Heroic (not Mythic) raiding guild as a Prot Warrior because according to Warcraft logs, my DPS ranking parse in Normal Antorus was only a 34.

Now if i was applying to Method, i could understand, as they push world first, pre nerf kills, that require maximum DPS from all class/specs.

But is it normal to be denied a tank application to a 0/11M guild for DPS reasons? I’ve been away from the game for a bit...
Extra dps is extra dps is extra dps my friend. At current gearing levels and the competitive nature of even trying to secure a tank spot in a raid group I'd say it's not uncommon. If I have two options and one of them is only doing 400k and the other is doing 900k the decision is clear to me.
02/06/2018 05:47 AMPosted by Kaleg
Extra dps is extra dps is extra dps my friend. At current gearing levels and the competitive nature of even trying to secure a tank spot in a raid group I'd say it's not uncommon. If I have two options and one of them is only doing 400k and the other is doing 900k the decision is clear to me.


What if the one pulling 900k also takes 4 times as much damage and is requiring his healers to soak more mana into him? On a long fight that could be very detrimental since healers can go OOM more quickly during progression.

Yes during farm kills/short fights that isn't a problem but a long 10+ minute fight that isn't the case. Healers can go oom especially on some of the later Antorus fights with how much raid wide AOE goes out. A tank taking a crap ton more damage is bad in that scenario, even if he pulls good numbers.
02/06/2018 04:57 AMPosted by Mikeyxx
Has anyone heard of this before? I was denied from a Heroic (not Mythic) raiding guild as a Prot Warrior because according to Warcraft logs, my DPS ranking parse in Normal Antorus was only a 34.

Now if i was applying to Method, i could understand, as they push world first, pre nerf kills, that require maximum DPS from all class/specs.

But is it normal to be denied a tank application to a 0/11M guild for DPS reasons? I’ve been away from the game for a bit...


No. That's not normal. Dps is dps so I get that. But. Still
Not normal vs the guilds I raid in.
02/06/2018 04:57 AMPosted by Mikeyxx
Has anyone heard of this before? I was denied from a Heroic (not Mythic) raiding guild as a Prot Warrior because according to Warcraft logs, my DPS ranking parse in Normal Antorus was only a 34.

Now if i was applying to Method, i could understand, as they push world first, pre nerf kills, that require maximum DPS from all class/specs.

But is it normal to be denied a tank application to a 0/11M guild for DPS reasons? I’ve been away from the game for a bit...


This actually isn't as silly of a requirement as it may seem. Keep in mind these people know absolutely nothing about you other than what you provide to them. Having good logs indicates that you know how to play your class well in all aspects, and it generally (not always) suggests that you are a good player because you can do high amounts of damage, while also killing the boss, meaning you can do your rotation properly, survive, and do mechanics all at the same time.

If you were interviewed by this guild, perhaps you could point out some of the things that you did well that are not reflected in a parse. A parse literally only tells you how much damage you did in comparison to other people, it tells nothing about your ability to survive or deal with mechanics. In addition to this, you really need to make sure you and the people interviewing you are looking at ilvl% parses, not overall parses. If you're 900 ilvl, it makes no sense comparing yourself to someone who is 970 ilvl - of course there will be a massive gap there.
Every team has their own things they look for in new members. As a recruiter for a mythic raid team, I can give you my insights.

Tank DPS is nice, but not something super critical for 99% of us. Having said that, poor prot warrior DPS logs can be an indicator that your tank might not be great with his rotation, might not be gearing / talenting properly, and might not have a great understanding of the fights. Without spending hours combing over your logs, I can see that your talent choices are incorrect, your gear isn't gemmed or enchanted, you have a limited overall raiding / tanking history, you're using the incorrect flask, and I'm not seeing you use Shield Wall / LS / or Demo AT ALL during the 2-3 fights I glanced at.

You said it yourself, you've been gone from the game for a while. No disrespect but I think it shows in your logs. Give yourself a few weeks to adjust. Read about correct talent choices and gearing options.
For Heroic raiding, not much is required from the tanks except survival. Both of my guild's main raid tanks only do 400k-500k dps and we never have an issue downing bosses. Sure we don't cheese mechanics like other guild kills in the same manner, but we do just fine for a friendly casual guild.

My thoughts are that they need a metric to go by to evaluate a potential raider and logs are their go to place for that.
Maybe I have an old mindset but a tank is meant to tank. I'll take the lower dps if he is using his mitigating cooldown properly, knows how to position and studies up on fights. To not trial a tank for dps reasons seems kinda ridiculous. But they'll get theirs when they spend their time wiping time and time again because they guy they picked is trying to fit in one more global before using defensive cooldowns to maximize dps.
02/06/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Trojanpally
Maybe I have an old mindset but a tank is meant to tank. I'll take the lower dps if he is using his mitigating cooldown properly, knows how to position and studies up on fights. To not trial a tank for dps reasons seems kinda ridiculous. But they'll get theirs when they spend their time wiping time and time again because they guy they picked is trying to fit in one more global before using defensive cooldowns to maximize dps.


Eh a really good tank will no how to maximize dps while also mitigating damage. Same goes for DPS. Really good dps will do mechanics while also keeping up damage. All depends what a guild is looking for.
It's not really the old days anymore. Tank DPS is now something that comes supplementary with having the knowledge and the skills to be a successful tank. You'd only be somewhat lower from your true potential maximum DPS for swapping in survival trinkets rather than crying your DPS in half.
02/06/2018 04:57 AMPosted by Mikeyxx
Has anyone heard of this before? I was denied from a Heroic (not Mythic) raiding guild as a Prot Warrior because according to Warcraft logs, my DPS ranking parse in Normal Antorus was only a 34.

Now if i was applying to Method, i could understand, as they push world first, pre nerf kills, that require maximum DPS from all class/specs.

But is it normal to be denied a tank application to a 0/11M guild for DPS reasons? I’ve been away from the game for a bit...
Four things really.

1) There was a time when for a number of tanking classes there was a pretty direct correlation between dps and how often you were using your active mitigation. So dps was viewed as a proxy for good play. How true that still is I have no idea. Sometimes dated ideas linger on.
2) If one tank does a lot more dps than the other it can create all kinds of aggro issues in fights where both tanks are on the same boss.
3) If you're choosing survivability talents/rotation over dps then why not go pug normal again and get a good parses?
4) I believe warrior tanks are perceived as being weak this tier so they might have been looking for an excuse to deny you.
I have heard of tanks being turned down for low dps. It's not necessarily a matter of "We need this tank to do good dps to beat mechanics." but it is a gauge that can people can look at to compare you to other competitive tankers.

Since you've only got two slots available per most heroic settings, it would make sense for the raid lead to bring the guy that hits harder.

Granted, when looking at parses it would also be a good idea to see the amount of damage you are also taking per fight, especially avoidable damage or damage that went un-mitigated (Like not using spell reflect at the right time).

I think the best solution right now is to improve your parses. Regardless of your opinion on the validity of parses, that's what recruiters are gonna look at when they take strangers in. Aim to get that tasty four-set and you should be shield slamming your way to victory in no time.
02/06/2018 06:25 AMPosted by Korcron
02/06/2018 05:47 AMPosted by Kaleg
Extra dps is extra dps is extra dps my friend. At current gearing levels and the competitive nature of even trying to secure a tank spot in a raid group I'd say it's not uncommon. If I have two options and one of them is only doing 400k and the other is doing 900k the decision is clear to me.


What if the one pulling 900k also takes 4 times as much damage and is requiring his healers to soak more mana into him? On a long fight that could be very detrimental since healers can go OOM more quickly during progression.

Yes during farm kills/short fights that isn't a problem but a long 10+ minute fight that isn't the case. Healers can go oom especially on some of the later Antorus fights with how much raid wide AOE goes out. A tank taking a crap ton more damage is bad in that scenario, even if he pulls good numbers.


You’re assuming you can only do good damage, OR good defense. When you can actually do both. Sure the one doing 900k DPS could theoretically be a worse tank...but odds are he’s not. Especially on heroic where tanks can’t really even die. 34% is bad
Mythic is one thing, Heroic is another. If a person is applying to a Heroic only guild, I wouldn't hold an expectation for a tank applicant to have even a blue parse in damage. Maybe that's too trusting or hopeful, but I don't really see the need in a high damage requirement from a tank in a non-Mythic guild.
Heroic guilds asking for parses OMEGALUL
Looking at your Vari normal log, a couple of things jump out. (Prot warriors shine on Vari).
You did 366k dps and required 435k (!) external healing at ilvl 945. You run Indomitable/Heavy Repercussions (and have poor legendaries).
On my own ilvl 945 normal parse from Dec, I did 754k dps and required 91k external healing.
We both took similar amounts of total damage.

Never, ever, run Indomitable. If you need the health for certain fights (like dogs or Portal Keeper) then run a stam trinket.
Don't run Heavy Repercussions, especially if you have t21 2pc.

The problem with the idea that tank dps shouldn't/doesn't matter is that it can really hurt your co-tank's survivability. In order for a prot warrior to be viable, he has to generate rage to feed IP. The more rage generated, the more survivability. We generate rage through our dps abilities (for the most part). The more dps we do (via shield slam/thunder clap/and vengeance weaving if you took that ability), the better we survive.
If you do crap dps, you do crap threat (vs the other tank). If the other tank is a prot warrior, he may have to gimp his dps (and rage generation) so he doesn't pull aggro. Gimping rage generation while off tanking especially sucks for bleed/dot fights like portal keeper. I can't keep IP up if the other tank can't hold aggro.
02/06/2018 04:18 PMPosted by Seramore
Mythic is one thing, Heroic is another. If a person is applying to a Heroic only guild, I wouldn't hold an expectation for a tank applicant to have even a blue parse in damage. Maybe that's too trusting or hopeful, but I don't really see the need in a high damage requirement from a tank in a non-Mythic guild.


Never going to care about parse color but I would be freaking pissed stuck opposite someone running Indomitable. It's not raidfinder, no one wants to tank an 8 stack of the High Command cleave debuff.
02/06/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Trojanpally
Maybe I have an old mindset but a tank is meant to tank. I'll take the lower dps if he is using his mitigating cooldown properly, knows how to position and studies up on fights. To not trial a tank for dps reasons seems kinda ridiculous. But they'll get theirs when they spend their time wiping time and time again because they guy they picked is trying to fit in one more global before using defensive cooldowns to maximize dps.


You can do all that stuff and not do garbage dps.
02/06/2018 06:23 PMPosted by Niasoc
02/06/2018 04:18 PMPosted by Seramore
Mythic is one thing, Heroic is another. If a person is applying to a Heroic only guild, I wouldn't hold an expectation for a tank applicant to have even a blue parse in damage. Maybe that's too trusting or hopeful, but I don't really see the need in a high damage requirement from a tank in a non-Mythic guild.


Never going to care about parse color but I would be freaking pissed stuck opposite someone running Indomitable. It's not raidfinder, no one wants to tank an 8 stack of the High Command cleave debuff.
I'm not saying they shouldn't analyze logs or not recruit people for poor play/choices, I'm saying they shouldn't specifically not recruit somebody solely based off of tank DPS in a non-Mythic guild.
My mitigation got better on my war tank after I was able to dish out more dps. T21 2 piece helps quite a bit for both damage and mitigation.

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