Punish players who leave Mythic Keystone

General Discussion
02/23/2018 06:59 AMPosted by Altmcdaniels
The best thing Blizzard could do would be tracking dropped Keystone runs. Have them show up as a big, whopping failure. Something that raider.io and other websites could track.

That'd nip part of the problem in the bud.


No, there is more control needed.

The key leader has the ability to initiate a vote to end the dungeon mutually if the group finds themselves over their head that ends it neutrally. Leaving trigger a big negative score. Finishing the dungeon over the time gives a small positive score and obviously +2/3 gives a bigger bonus.

Essentially, people who leave REGARDLESS OF REASON need to be punished. Finishing should ALWAYS be preferred with a clean out once the time is over or the group agrees they cant cut it.

I would love the ability alone to see the amount and frequency of people who leave runs broke out in metrics like within the week, within the last 2 weeks, month, and last 3 months. Those people are worse, or at least are as bad, as the "baddies".
02/23/2018 06:59 AMPosted by Altmcdaniels
The best thing Blizzard could do would be tracking dropped Keystone runs. Have them show up as a big, whopping failure. Something that raider.io and other websites could track.

That'd nip part of the problem in the bud.


The lack of a score from the run is enough incentive to stay if the group might clear.

I can't honestly say I'd be able to get behind a system for punishing leavers. There have been M+ where the tank (when I'm on an alt) has no clue what to do and refuses to accept help or suggestions, wiping us repeatedly. There have been M+ where the DPS literally cannot meet damage checks and we just die, over and over. Where the group has no clue how to handle the dungeon as a whole, wiping us repeatedly despite my best efforts to tank through it and explain how to handle it. I always do anything and everything I can to make a run I'm in succeed, but sometimes it's just not going to happen.

The system has enough problems with players who don't know they can't/don't care if they can't do keys, creating this pool of players that destabilizes Keystones, making everybody else's lives harder. Until this is no longer a problem, until I no longer have a legitimate reason to leave after the 6th full party wipe when the tank refuses to stop overpulling, or the DPS simply cannot pull what it needs to to clear, any system that punishes me for leaving 1/100 Keystones because the group cannot do the run is failing in its purpose.

Now, if this system can somehow separate the trolls from somebody who leaves due to the group being incapable? Great, I'm all for it.
02/23/2018 06:59 AMPosted by Altmcdaniels
The best thing Blizzard could do would be tracking dropped Keystone runs. Have them show up as a big, whopping failure. Something that raider.io and other websites could track.


Yeah, that wont lead to more elitist aholes, i can see it now

PUG Listing: Mythic +5 run. No failures on raider.io or no invite.
Whispering Player tying to join: can i come i have one drop but because i dropped due to the tank was clueless as rocks and took 20 minutes to get to first boss
Leader: NO get gud you scrub noob. /mute
i actually don't mind people leaving that much, but at least make it so they can't get reward if the group finishes the run with 4 people.

I know initially people were stealing other people's loot by kicking them at the end of a run so there is a higher chance for the remaining 4 to get loot, but I'm sure you can actually code the system to distinguish the difference between "leaving" and "removed from group" so that the former aren't punished by intentional abuse, but the latter also aren't rewarded for something they didn't complete.
#puglife

If you think it sucks now, you should have experienced it when your key got depleted.

This just happened to me the other day. Tank was bad, heals left. It’s a risk you run when you pug.
02/23/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Galabris
Essentially, people who leave REGARDLESS OF REASON need to be punished. Finishing should ALWAYS be preferred with a clean out once the time is over or the group agrees they cant cut it.


Absolutely not. I will not stay in a group that will only ever reach the end of the dungeon 7 hours from now. I refuse to stay in a failed group and waste my time for several hours when my only reward will be frustration.

When the healer keeps having to go AFK mid-boss because of things her kids are doing and we die three times to the second boss of VotW because of it, or when one of the DPS is ilevel 946 and doing less DPS than the tank, or when the tank running ahead of the group pulling packs while the healer is chasing after him getting pummeled by half the dungeon, I will not stick around.

I've had every single one of the above situations happen in M+ dungeons I've been in. I left all of them, because even after multiple wipes and a lot of wasted time, they refused to stop being terrible.

If you want people to stay in your dungeons, remove the problem players so people dont get frustrated and leave. If the problem is YOU, which I suspect it might be, you need to fix that situation first.

Until then, get over it.
02/23/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Galabris
Essentially, people who leave REGARDLESS OF REASON need to be punished. Finishing should ALWAYS be preferred with a clean out once the time is over or the group agrees they cant cut it.


Absolutely not. I will not stay in a group that will only ever reach the end of the dungeon 7 hours from now. I refuse to do it. When the healer keeps having to go AFK mid-boss because of things her kids are doing and we die three times to the second boss of VotW because of it, or when one of the DPS is ilevel 946 and doing less DPS than the tank, or when the tank running ahead of the group pulling packs while the healing is chasing after him getting pummeled by half the dungeon, I will not stick around.

I've had every single one of the above situations happen in M+ dungeons I've been in. I left all of them, because even after multiple wipes and a lot of wasted time, they refused to stop being terrible.

If you want people to stay in your dungeons, remove the problem players so people dont get frustrated and leave. If the problem is YOU, which I suspect it might be, you need to fix that situation first.

Until then, get over it.


Pretty much sums it up.
Some groups need to be left.
02/19/2018 08:02 PMPosted by Dæmonjesùs
02/19/2018 07:54 PMPosted by Rdord
Don't be bad and they won't leave.

Or something important in real life happened and they left regardless.

Neither of those situations need to punish the leaver.

If you start something see it through, if life behind the screen is so chaotic that you may need to leave at the drop of a hat, then don't join or at least make the time to run through the entire session. If I leave a bg because of either of those things..I get the deserter debuff for 15mins.


Oh shut up.

Emergencies happen. Screw anyone getting bent out of shape because they learn their precious dungeon or raid (regardless of its difficulty) was disturbed because of irl issues so someone had to drop.

Immaturity defined. But sorry ill visit the er after i finish your precious instance. Lol.
02/23/2018 07:32 AMPosted by Tyberim
02/23/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Galabris
Essentially, people who leave REGARDLESS OF REASON need to be punished. Finishing should ALWAYS be preferred with a clean out once the time is over or the group agrees they cant cut it.


Absolutely not. I will not stay in a group that will only ever reach the end of the dungeon 7 hours from now. I refuse to stay in a failed group and waste my time for several hours when my only reward will be frustration.

When the healer keeps having to go AFK mid-boss because of things her kids are doing and we die three times to the second boss of VotW because of it, or when one of the DPS is ilevel 946 and doing less DPS than the tank, or when the tank running ahead of the group pulling packs while the healer is chasing after him getting pummeled by half the dungeon, I will not stick around.

I've had every single one of the above situations happen in M+ dungeons I've been in. I left all of them, because even after multiple wipes and a lot of wasted time, they refused to stop being terrible.

If you want people to stay in your dungeons, remove the problem players so people dont get frustrated and leave. If the problem is YOU, which I suspect it might be, you need to fix that situation first.

Until then, get over it.


I already put in protections for that.

There should be the ability to vote to kill the run with no negative penalty if the majority win. Likewise, there shouldn't be a penalty after the times is over (but you should get a small bonus for finishing even after the timer).

That alone negates all your scenarios. At worst, it doesn't solve douchebag groups of 3 who intentionally want to screw over 2 people, but I doubt there is a clean programmable solution for that since today it is easy enough for 1 person to just screw a group over (especially a tank or healer).

I'd even go as far as to consider adding a penalty free reset if someone leaves or gets kicked within a 5 minute window. This also prevents the key from getting lowered. Find out you have a tissue paper tank? Kick him and the run will expire naturally with nobody being punished.

Giving unlimited protections for donkeyholes just allows them to be donkeyholes. The CORE problem with mythic+ is only 1 person puts up risk. If it was designed properly, everyone would need an equivalent level key (doesn't have to be the same dungeon) and EVERYONE risks their key when running so even the donkeyholes have skin in the game.

That is what is needed. Everyone has skin in the game so there are punishments to bad behavior.
Even if my party is bad, I don't leave. I haven't had people leave either. I've been forunate enough for that.
Don't endorse bad game mechanics. Friends don't let friends do mythic plus. More so when you pug. If you do have to do it then use all friends or guild members.
02/23/2018 08:03 AMPosted by Galabris
02/23/2018 07:32 AMPosted by Tyberim
...

Absolutely not. I will not stay in a group that will only ever reach the end of the dungeon 7 hours from now. I refuse to stay in a failed group and waste my time for several hours when my only reward will be frustration.

When the healer keeps having to go AFK mid-boss because of things her kids are doing and we die three times to the second boss of VotW because of it, or when one of the DPS is ilevel 946 and doing less DPS than the tank, or when the tank running ahead of the group pulling packs while the healer is chasing after him getting pummeled by half the dungeon, I will not stick around.

I've had every single one of the above situations happen in M+ dungeons I've been in. I left all of them, because even after multiple wipes and a lot of wasted time, they refused to stop being terrible.

If you want people to stay in your dungeons, remove the problem players so people dont get frustrated and leave. If the problem is YOU, which I suspect it might be, you need to fix that situation first.

Until then, get over it.


I already put in protections for that.

There should be the ability to vote to kill the run with no negative penalty if the majority win. Likewise, there shouldn't be a penalty after the times is over (but you should get a small bonus for finishing even after the timer).

That alone negates all your scenarios. At worst, it doesn't solve douchebag groups of 3 who intentionally want to screw over 2 people, but I doubt there is a clean programmable solution for that since today it is easy enough for 1 person to just screw a group over (especially a tank or healer).

I'd even go as far as to consider adding a penalty free reset if someone leaves or gets kicked within a 5 minute window. This also prevents the key from getting lowered. Find out you have a tissue paper tank? Kick him and the run will expire naturally with nobody being punished.

Giving unlimited protections for donkeyholes just allows them to be donkeyholes. The CORE problem with mythic+ is only 1 person puts up risk. If it was designed properly, everyone would need an equivalent level key (doesn't have to be the same dungeon) and EVERYONE risks their key when running so even the donkeyholes have skin in the game.

That is what is needed. Everyone has skin in the game so there are punishments to bad behavior.


Didnt read any of that. You're coming up with solutions to problems that dont exist. Its fine the way it is now. Deal with it.
02/23/2018 08:14 AMPosted by Tyberim
02/23/2018 08:03 AMPosted by Galabris
...

I already put in protections for that.

There should be the ability to vote to kill the run with no negative penalty if the majority win. Likewise, there shouldn't be a penalty after the times is over (but you should get a small bonus for finishing even after the timer).

That alone negates all your scenarios. At worst, it doesn't solve douchebag groups of 3 who intentionally want to screw over 2 people, but I doubt there is a clean programmable solution for that since today it is easy enough for 1 person to just screw a group over (especially a tank or healer).

I'd even go as far as to consider adding a penalty free reset if someone leaves or gets kicked within a 5 minute window. This also prevents the key from getting lowered. Find out you have a tissue paper tank? Kick him and the run will expire naturally with nobody being punished.

Giving unlimited protections for donkeyholes just allows them to be donkeyholes. The CORE problem with mythic+ is only 1 person puts up risk. If it was designed properly, everyone would need an equivalent level key (doesn't have to be the same dungeon) and EVERYONE risks their key when running so even the donkeyholes have skin in the game.

That is what is needed. Everyone has skin in the game so there are punishments to bad behavior.


Didnt read any of that. You're coming up with solutions to problems that dont exist. Its fine the way it is now. Deal with it.


Obviously problems do exist or people won't be making threads about it. You can be a dismissive tool all you want, but it doesn't invalidate a point just because you want the ability to eff groups over on a whim with no penalty.
02/19/2018 07:47 PMPosted by Idindunuffin
I physically can't count on my hands how many times someone has left a Mythic Keystone


Not try to be mean, but if its happening to you that often, perhaps the you are the common factor in this issue, also the level of the keystone matters a lot.

When I was first starting out doing low keys (2-6s) you would see people occasionally leave the groups after a wipe, or when it became clear the the tank or healer was woefully undergeared or there wasn't enough dps going out, or ppl targeting orbs etc.

I think you see that more in low keys because less people screen for them, so you are more likely to get random horrible players (at least as compared to what their ilvl would suggest they are capable of), and also the lower the key, the less many people think it matters if the run finishes or not.

Once you get into higher keys things are generally a lot better, even more so if you use the raider io addon so you can see not only score and completions but highest key completed of a type. For example, there are many +15 keys I would probably be an asset to my group on, but I haven't done any seat keys this season, so someone can look at my score and see that although it suggests I'm capable of a 15 on time, bringing me to seat 16 might end badly, and the group leader can screen me out or accept my application in accordance with their whims.

Special mention however to +15 keys, there are many people desperate to run their one 15 key for the week for loot, and since you get that sweet 960 even if you fail the timer and take 3 hours, you get a lot of random crazies if you don't screen well, 14s and 16s often go a lot easier than 15s do for that reason.

TLDR version: Run with people you know, use third party tools if needed to screen folks, and take a good hard look at your performance to see if that might be the cause of folks ditching.

While I'm sure some people ditch keys on purpose to troll or because they are impatient, unless you are sitting in the room with them you don't know how legit their reason for ditching was and why risk punishing people unless you were sure they are deserving of it.

I mean, for all you know My cat was sitting too close to the fireplace, and his tail lit on fire, this naturally distressed him and while he ran around the house he jumped in the baby's crib which is now on fire so I had to do afk to deal with that situation, are you saying I should be punished for it?
02/23/2018 07:23 AMPosted by Säyä
02/23/2018 06:59 AMPosted by Altmcdaniels
The best thing Blizzard could do would be tracking dropped Keystone runs. Have them show up as a big, whopping failure. Something that raider.io and other websites could track.


Yeah, that wont lead to more elitist aholes, i can see it now

PUG Listing: Mythic +5 run. No failures on raider.io or no invite.
Whispering Player tying to join: can i come i have one drop but because i dropped due to the tank was clueless as rocks and took 20 minutes to get to first boss
Leader: NO get gud you scrub noob. /mute


Elitist a-holes already exist now, and at least recording dropped groups would help prevent people from dropping group to avoid any effect on raider.io.

Between a system that encourages to people to stay with a group despite failure and a system that encourages people to drop a group because of failure, better that the system encourages staying. Particularly because the whole point of the system is to rate how good or bad someone is - and if people are dropping group to avoid negative marks on their record, then their record has been artificially enhanced.
02/19/2018 07:47 PMPosted by Idindunuffin
I physically can't count on my hands how many times someone has left a Mythic Keystone there should honestly be some type of punishment for it. If you try to leave while in the middle of it there should be a message "You are in the middle of a Mythic Keystone dungeon you will be unable to do mythic keystone dungeons for 12-24-36 hours (How ever how many times they left previously) if you leave." Because this has been happening for SOO long


I find your name very curious considering your demand for punishment.
02/23/2018 06:59 AMPosted by Altmcdaniels
The best thing Blizzard could do would be tracking dropped Keystone runs. Have them show up as a big, whopping failure. Something that raider.io and other websites could track.

That'd nip part of the problem in the bud.


This is not a good idea. I've been in runs where we collectively agreed that the keystone was over our heads so we deliberately tanked it 1 level to try again. That's not failure; that's the purpose of M+ -- to find your skill ceiling for the group with which you are working. That should never show up on a website as "failure".

Quite honestly, the best way to enjoy M+ is with a steady group of players. When you pug anything, you simply run the risk of an attitude of "these folks are throwaway to me". Make friends, put them on Bnet, and run with them frequently and your entire gaming experience will improve.
02/23/2018 09:24 AMPosted by Noveene
02/23/2018 06:59 AMPosted by Altmcdaniels
The best thing Blizzard could do would be tracking dropped Keystone runs. Have them show up as a big, whopping failure. Something that raider.io and other websites could track.

That'd nip part of the problem in the bud.


This is not a good idea. I've been in runs where we collectively agreed that the keystone was over our heads so we deliberately tanked it 1 level to try again. That's not failure; that's the purpose of M+ -- to find your skill ceiling for the group with which you are working. That should never show up on a website as "failure".


Except it is a failure. The group failed. It was not up to the challenge. Between beating a dungeon 5 minutes after the timer and not beating it at all, beating it 5 minutes after the timer is a lot better than not beating it at all. If run-times are being tracked, then dropping dungeons also should be tracked.
As it is easy enough to track, why not implement a karma system, the more dropped the worse the karma gets, that way the single or accidental ones are not effected as badly and the repeat griefers are shown for what they are, and would not be invited in the first place based on the karma.

The score could be represented via number, color, meter, whatever.

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