Why Sylvanas WON'T be Garrosh 2.0

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For Horde players, the biggest worry heading into BFA is that the Horde's storyline is just going to be a retread of the one it got in MoP - i.e., we end up deposing our Warchief again. Orgrimmar is besieged again. So on and so forth. Saurfang calling it quits on Sylvanas's Horde certainly seems to be pointing towards that direction.

But there's one slight detail that people aren't really noticing.

When the Darkspear began their rebellion against Garrosh, the catalyst for it wasn't the bombing of Theramore. I mean, yeah, some of the Horde leaders thought that wiping out an entire city with a single bomb wasn't very "honorable," but all they really did at the time was file a few complaints and then carry on with business as usual.

Rather, what REALLY started the rebellion was the attempted murder of Vol'jin, a much beloved Horde leader. It wasn't Garrosh's ruthless, arguably dishonorable tactics that the Horde protested to, but rather the realization that Garrosh viewed all the non-orcs as disposable tools to be used in whatever way he deems fit.

The Horde didn't rise up against Garrosh until he became their problem.

That's why I don't think this expansion is going to end in another Horde rebellion. Unlike Garrosh, Sylvanas knows that deliberately alienating the other Horde races would be unwise, as the Forsaken simply don't have the raw power needed to stand on their own. It's why (via the new Allied Race system) she's so interested in recruiting new races and nations into the Horde - she knows she's going to need all the help she can get.

Her ruthless tactics will likely make her a divisive warchief, much like Garrosh. Hell, she's even starting her second expansion by bombing an entire Alliance settlement just like Garrosh did (except she's one-upping him by taking out an entire CAPITAL CITY instead of just a low-level quest hub), and that will likely be met with controversy, protests, etc.

But the other Horde leaders aren't going to do much to stop her because, for the moment at least, she's not their problem.

Now I know what you're thinking: "She refers to us as 'arrows in her quiver.' I'm pretty sure she thinks of us as disposable just like Garrosh did." Well, consider two retcons in Chronicle 3.

A: Sylvanas sees a vision in Hell about how the Forsaken languished without her, making her motivations to keep the Forsaken going and her quest for immortality a little less selfish.

B: The Twilight's Hammer was no longer subtly manipulating the Alliance and Horde to go to war with each other in Cataclysm. That one orc band that crashed the tauren/night elf peace party? All Garrosh.

Chronicle 3 is trying to make Garrosh seem worse, and Sylvanas seem better. Which tells me that Blizzard ISN'T going to make Sylvanas the new Garrosh. There'll be some internal conflict within the Horde leadership for certain, but I don't think it's going to end in open rebellion like it did last time.

We may be arrows in the Dark Lady's quiver, but a good archer takes care of her arrows. She doesn't waste them, she salvages the arrows after use if she can, and she certainly isn't going to deliberately piss off the arrows.

Because without the arrows, the bow is nothing but a weird, curvy stick.
04/16/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Spritzie
Unlike Garrosh, Sylvanas knows that deliberately alienating the other Horde races would be unwise, as the Forsaken simply don't have the raw power needed to stand on their own.
Given that Saurfang leaves because he's alienated, seems like she's not doing a great job of that so far.
You are assuming Blizzard learns from their mistakes, as opposed to endlessly reusing stories and themes over and over no matter how awful they are (oh noes! A sunreaver has betrayed Dalaran for the 4th expansion in a row!).
The Horde didn't rise up against Garrosh until he became their problem.

That doesn't mean it wasn't a long time coming.
Garrosh turned on the other races of the Horde and any orcs who didn't fall in line. I have a hard time seeing Sylvanas act similar. She is practical, and the Horde won't turn on her for bringing victory over the Alliance.
If she does something evil enough she may experience dissent, but she'd have to be extremely desperate to plow on to where that becomes a problem, and at that point I think she'd sooner negotiate a truce (or step down from the position she didn't want to begin with) than have the Horde and the Alliance against her.
Sylvanas might die a pointless death to appease the Alliance brats, but at least people will still keep making Rule 34 of her that doesn't involve anything about the utterly terrible Wranduin ship.
How could Sylavanas possibly be Garrosh 2.0 when she was doing it first?
Yes - I agree OP.
Also, nice touch with the bow and arrow analogy. These forum dwellers won’t know good poetry even if it landed on their lap. I for one believe you deserve such recognition.

*flips hair*
While the signs are all there for a possible different storyline, you have too much faith in them. At this point they're being semi-stingy due to possible backlash/pushback from the community. You make good points that we've discussed before, but many of us just don't have faith in them anymore.
04/16/2018 04:45 PMPosted by Rakkrun
While the signs are all there for a possible different storyline, you have too much faith in them. At this point they're being semi-stingy due to possible backlash/pushback from the community. You make good points that we've discussed before, but many of us just don't have faith in them anymore.


Are you therefore suggesting that the story forums is a cesspool of cynicallly jaded circle jerkers?

I for one am optimistic with the coming changes. They hired a story lead in Christie who will surely treat us for a ride.
04/16/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Spritzie
B: The Twilight's Hammer was no longer subtly manipulating the Alliance and Horde to go to war with each other in Cataclysm. That one orc band that crashed the tauren/night elf peace party? All Garrosh.


The Twilight Hammer manipulating the Horde and Alliance is still canon. Malfurion even mentions it when Elerethe Renferal is killed in the Nightmare raid.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Elerethe_Renferal_(tactics)#Quotes

Elerethe Renferal yells: Betrayers, will you remember killing me now?
Malfurion Stormrage yells: The illusion of corruption falls away! Behold a druid who was as a sister to me... Elerethe Renferal. I feel her loss keenly, heroes.
Malfurion Stormrage yells: The Twilight's Hammer ambushed and murdered Elerethe, misleading her into believing Hamuul Runetotem played a part in her death. It seems her spirit was so twisted that she sought to take vengeance upon all of Thunder Bluff.
Malfurion Stormrage yells: You had a deep love for the lands of Alterac, old friend. I vow to tend the vale in your name.


Chronicle just gives an overhead and just because something isn't mentioned in the chronicle doesn't mean that its no longer canon.
04/16/2018 05:58 PMPosted by Gornur
The Twilight Hammer manipulating the Horde and Alliance is still canon. Malfurion even mentions it when Elerethe Renferal is killed in the Nightmare raid.

Which is very interesting because it implies that the Horde and Alliance know about the Twilight's Hammer meddling in Ashenvale.
04/16/2018 06:07 PMPosted by Rokugan
04/16/2018 05:58 PMPosted by Gornur
The Twilight Hammer manipulating the Horde and Alliance is still canon. Malfurion even mentions it when Elerethe Renferal is killed in the Nightmare raid.

Which is very interesting because it implies that the Horde and Alliance know about the Twilight's Hammer meddling in Ashenvale.


We disrupted a lot of Twilight Cult operations in Cataclysm, only natural the info would come up eventually.
04/16/2018 01:13 PMPosted by Floren
04/16/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Spritzie
Unlike Garrosh, Sylvanas knows that deliberately alienating the other Horde races would be unwise, as the Forsaken simply don't have the raw power needed to stand on their own.
Given that Saurfang leaves because he's alienated, seems like she's not doing a great job of that so far.

Thats Saurfang being a curmudgeon.
04/16/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
(oh noes! A sunreaver has betrayed Dalaran for the 4th expansion in a row!).


My favorite part of that was Sunreavers being treacherous has become so commonplace that no one was surprised and it was treated like Aethas had made a comment about the weather.

And OP, of course Sylvie won't be Garry. She doesn't have his magnificent pecs, to start with.
04/16/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Spritzie
For Horde players, the biggest worry heading into BFA is that the Horde's storyline is just going to be a retread of the one it got in MoP


That's actually not my biggest worry.

My biggest worry is nationalism and self-preservation becomes so central to the Horde's identity we will forsake our heroic identity and moral values and relapse into becoming another version of the Old Horde - hellbent on survival and power no matter the cost.

04/16/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Spritzie
Well, consider two retcons in Chronicle 3.

A: Sylvanas sees a vision in Hell about how the Forsaken languished without her, making her motivations to keep the Forsaken going and her quest for immortality a little less selfish.


What're you talking about?
04/16/2018 01:13 PMPosted by Floren
04/16/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Spritzie
Unlike Garrosh, Sylvanas knows that deliberately alienating the other Horde races would be unwise, as the Forsaken simply don't have the raw power needed to stand on their own.
Given that Saurfang leaves because he's alienated, seems like she's not doing a great job of that so far.

I'm legit a little worried that "after all she has done" is going to end up referring to not letting him die to Malfurion
To me the biggest difference between Garrosh and Sylvanas, from the Horde’s perspective, is Garrosh essentially wanted an Orcish Horde while Sylvanas doesn’t appear to care what races make up her Horde.

So there’s a lot less likelihood of rebellion. Since the rest of the Horde is using her too.

I think it’d take Sylvanas getting some power that would enable her to abandon the Horde. Idk if that will happen, but as is, there’s no real incentive for the rest of the Horde to rise against her. The Alliance is at war with the whole Horde. Not Sylvanas.

Also, if that Barrens Warfront that was datamined becomses a thing, that’s the Alliance attacking the Tauren and Orcs who even if they don’t like Sylvanas, I think the Alliance attacking them outweighs it.

Also, while Saurfang believes Sylvanas is abandoning honor, there is nothing to suggest that at the moment the rest of the more level headed Horde think that. Baine is happily guarding Sylvanas as she is attacking the Alliance with Blight.

If the Horde perceives the Alliance as having wronged them, they’ll probably support her 100%
04/16/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Spritzie
The Horde didn't rise up against Garrosh until he became their problem.

Correction: the Horde didn't rise up against Garrosh until the writers decided it was time. They could make the same decision again at any time. It doesn't have to have the same trigger.

04/16/2018 04:48 PMPosted by Rhaxxes
I for one am optimistic with the coming changes. They hired a story lead in Christie who will surely treat us for a ride.

Christie Golden's presence is one of the things that scares me most. I'm not convinced she can be trusted to write Sylvanas well. (I'll be happy if you can convince me I'm wrong, though.)

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