Holy Priest feedback

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05/27/2018 02:13 PMPosted by Wasselin
And are you trolling right now? Because Binding Heal cast time is the same in Legion and BFA. They've actually raised it's mana cost a little bit for BFA. Do you play Holy Priest?


Yea that was a confusing comment. Binding heal has had the exact same cast time (identical to flash heal) since it was introduced in 2007.

Web archive proof: https://web.archive.org/web/20071016182214/http://wowhead.com:80/?spell=32546

I assume they were comparing live to beta and didn't notice they had a different amount of haste or something.
Holy priests should be the most powerful (by a small amount), and versatile and have essential tools that raid and m+ teams want. If there isn't a massive desire to have them in a group then they need to be improved.
Who likes lists? I like lists... let's make a list.

Holy Paladin:
*Divine Protection - 20% damage reduction.
Divine Shield - loliwin immunity.
*Devotion Aura - Up to 10% passive damage reduction.
Aura Mastery - When combined with Devo Aura, 20% damage reduction.
Blessing of Protection - loliwin immunity for physical damage.
Plate Armor - Because armor...

Restoration Druid:
*Barkskin - 20% damage reduction.
*Ironbark - 20% damage reduction. Effectiveness and CD reduced via talent.
*Bear Form - 220% armor, 25% Stamina. (Can use anytime)
*Guardian Affinity - Passive 6% damage reduction. Access to Ironfur.

Restoration Shaman:
*Astral Shift - 40% damage reduction.
*Spirit Wolf - Up to 20% movement speed and 20% damage reduction.
*Nature's Guardian - 20% max HP heal when sub 35% HP.
Spirit Link Totem - 10% damage reduction, HP PERCENTAGE equalizer.
*Ancestral Vigor - 10% HP

Mistweaver Monk:
*Fortifying Brew - 20% HP, 20% damage reduction.
*Dampen Harm - 20% - 50% damage reduction.
-- on the same talent tier --
*Diffuse Magic - Debuff redirect, 60% magic reduction.
*Life Cocoon - PW: S on steroids.

Discipline Priest:
*Power Word: Shield - Absorb. No CD.
Power Word: Barrier - 25% damage reduction.
Pain Suppression - 40% damage reduction.
*Desperate Prayer - 25% HP
*Masochism - 10% damage reduction
*Focused Will - 15/30% damage reduction (applied through melee hits only).
Lenience - 3% damage reduction on Atonement (replaces PW: B).
Luminous Barrier - group/raid-wide absorb.
*Power Word: Fortitude - 10% stamina.
Rapture - 200% Shields ftw.

Holy Priest:
*Perseverence - 10% damage reduction.
Guardian Spirit - 60% healing increase, death safeguard.
Focused Will - 15/30% damage reduction (applied through melee hits only).
*Power Word: Fortitude - 10% stamina.
*Desperate Prayer - 25% HP

All items marked with (*) have a CD/proc effect of 2 min or less (this includes passives).

Who likes comparisons? I like comparisons... Let's make a comparison.

Holy Paladins have Divine Protection on a 1 min CD and their passive from Devo Aura. In a 5-man, such as a M+, this gives everyone a static 2% damage reduction (assuming everyone is within range of the aura). With that said, they have plate armor to reduce any physical damage they may take. This is significant by comparison. As if that's not enough, they have their long CD defensives that can be used for more dicey situations, such as Divine Shield or Aura Mastery for incoming bursts of AoE damage.

Restoration Druids have Ironbark and Barkskin, both on 1 min CDs. These spells also reduces any incoming damage by 20%; Ironbark has an added effect of boosting HoT effects, which can be boosted further by a talent. Additionally, whenever met with hazardous situations, they can quickly shift into Bear Form for increased HP and an armor multiplier. This effect can be stacked with the aforementioned damage reduction CDs for added protection. Additionally, they have the padding from Guardian Affinity to lol their way into high keys.

Restoration Shamans have Astral Shift on a 1.5 min CD. This is a 40% damage reduction... this is NOTHING to scoff at. Spirit Wolf provides 20% damage reduction (let's not even talk about the 20% additional speed they get as well) after 4 seconds of being in Ghost Wolf. This is permanent as long as they remain in Ghost Wolf. They can use Ancestral Vigor to mimic PW: F for a few seconds as well. Additionally, they can talent into a safeguard that automatically heals them when they drop below a 35% threshold.

continued below...
Mistweaver Monks have one baseline defensive that allows them to gain 20% health in addition to 20% damage reduction. This is only on a 1.5 minute CD. In addition to that, they can talent into two really strong defensives: Diffuse Magic or Dampen Harm. Diffuse Magic is a HUGE magic reduction (60%), while Dampen Harm is 20-50% of any damage. Both of these are 2 min CDs or less. Additionally, the mobility of the monk helps reduce their damage intake, making some of the defensives unnecessary at times that other healers may need to use one. Oh, also, they have Roid Cocoon that they can use in the event every other defensive they have just happens to be on CD.

Discipline Priests have their numerous absorptions which can be augmented by 200% with Rapture. This augmentation can be done every 1.5 minutes. Aside from that, they can either use their targeted 25% damage reduction or talent into a flat 3% damage reduction. They can keep Masochism up on themselves in addition to their various absorbs, and when the going gets tough, they can use Desperate Prayer. As a "passive," they can (should) [BETTER] have Power Word: Fortitude on everyone for an extra 10% HP. If by some miracle, a mob in a M+ dungeon manages to get two full melee swings off without killing them (which can be buffered by aforementioned defensives), they can obtain their Focused Will defensive for 30% damage reduction.

This brings us to...

Holy Priests have Perseverance they can talent into. This reduces damage by 10%. They can keep this up constantly. Additionally, they, like Disc, can use Power Word: Fortitude. Also like Disc, if they can manage to survive two melee hits, they can also acquire the 30% damage reduction from Focused Will. The downside to Focused Will for Holy Priests is that we don't have the absorbs to buffer the incoming damage... but hey, we still have a 25% HP boost through Desperate prayer.

It's hard to romanticize Holy's defensive capabilities the way I could the other specs because we just don't have much in the way of survivability.

I didn't mention Guardian Spirit, Pain Suppression, Spirit Link Totem. I don't see these as *practical personals.* Given their long CDs, they cannot be relied on as a personal defensive since they may be needed for another purpose.

TL; DR -- Holy needs defensive cooldowns! In my opinion, Focused Will should proc off of ANY damage received. That would go a LONG way to keeping the Spirit of Redemption fairy away....
Just a small reminder that good hps is not the only thing a healer needs to be viable in high end content.

/bump
Shout out to the Holy Priests out there who remain hopeful!

@Devs, we would love some communication and feedback!
So in this build you removed body and mind and added another "survivability" talent which is basically the artifact trait desperate measures now known as angel's mercy slightly twisted as it doesn't have an rng component may as well have went a step further than that and removed feathers as well since there is still no choice in this tier with feathers remaining auto-pick.

Flash Heal/Sanctify/Renew buffs are actually decent changes and moving light of the naaru to the 100 tier makes actually more interesting options on that tier, on the other hand moving cosmic ripple on the 45 tier pretty much makes it auto-pick so the other 2 talents need some boosts to make them compelling options since there aren't any at the moment. Moving light of the narru to the 100 tier significantly nerfs the salvation cd reset mechanic bringing it closer to 4-5 mins now since you can use less holy words now and the cd reduction is 30 sec instead of 40 since the it was benefitting from that talent, a good change giving how overpowered this ability is on a raid even though salvation overall healing got boosted thanks to the renew buff.

Some other changes i want to see have to do with prayer of healing, this ability is currently 100% useless, costs too much mana does too little healing and is outclassed completely by binding heal which costs less, heals more per target and provides cd reduction to both holy words. You should probably reinstate power of the naaru as baseline and/or straight up buff the values so there's actually a reason to use prayer of healing unless there's godly azerite trait that mega buffs PoH which i haven't seen yet so far.

Overall some decent enough changes in this build.
No talent ever put in a row against Light of the Naaru will ever feel competitive to such a significant improvement to the core mechanic of the spec. There's certainly a logic to Light now competing with Apotheosis (also a way to more Holy Words) and Salvation (a Holy Word that depends on the others for more frequent use) but that's a pretty unpleasant set of choices to have to make. Congrats Holy, you get one toy and one toy only.
Things I like about the 31/5 talent changes:
  • The lack of synergy between cosmic ripple and apotheosis was addressed
  • Angel's Mercy is marginally more interesting than Body and Mind
  • The power of the level 100 row seems closer together

Things I don't like:
  • Our dungeon and arena kit took a hit by putting Light of the Naaru and Apotheosis on the same row and it slowed our gameplay further which is the opposite of what we need
  • I have never been less excited by a talent row than I am about row 45. All passives, all would be last choice on any other row
  • Angel's Mercy is not the defensive we're looking for, Perseverance in theory is closer but no one is trading it for feathers
  • Even as a passive option Angel's Mercy doesn't live up to its goals, its actually more complicated to manage desperate prayer as it comes off cooldown at near random intervals, and the benefits to surviving are marginal, more a cheap HPS tool than survivability.


Imagine instead a version of cheat death that relies on Desperate Prayer being off cooldown but we can only be overkilled by as much damage as desperate prayer provides in healing. That is more in the ballpark of a passive option that lines up with the classes needs. Call it Desperation.

Unrelated to talent choices:

I noticed my chest had an Azerite Armor trait
  • Sanctum: When you cast Feint, absorb 1,440 Magic damage for 10 seconds.
  • Which is competing with a passive
  • GemHide: When dealt damage greater than 10% of your maximum health, gain 67 avoidance and 296 Armor for 10 sec.
  • So, for people asking for more defensive options, there are places outside of the talent tree to look, but if all the healers & armour have similar options with an apples to apples trade off we're still going to be below par.
    05/31/2018 04:07 PMPosted by Ginvite
    Angel's Mercy is not the defensive we're looking for, Perseverance in theory is closer but no one is trading it for feathers


    If I feel forced to give up feathers to boost my HPS with tons of random desperate prayer I'm gonna be mad.

    Angelic Feather is fun. Anything that I take over it will make me mad, even if it's the best survivability talent in the game. In a super slow baseline class I can't imagine playing without Angelic Feather.

    Also I get how movement speed and defensive cooldowns are linked in the minds of devs but in the actual game they are tools for two different problems. I've never stood in an avoidable mechanic and used desperate prayer to live through it. I need Desperate Prayer to live through unavoidable one-shot damage. I need feathers to move halfway across the room to heal someone or to keep up with my party in mythic+ since half the team can leap, sprint, blink, roll, glide, and just straight up run faster than me.

    Making us choose between movement speed and survivability is just a lose/lose proposition.
    Why do priests, alone of all healers, have to talent to get any mobility? How many talent points do Holy Pallies use to access Divine Steed? How many talent points do Mistweaver Monks use to get Roll? None!

    Row 45 is now the most boring, uninteresting row of passives ever. You can (a) get weak, passive healing that is completely uncontrollable, (b) bring our one external cooldown's timer slightly closer to Resto Druid's Ironbark (which starts baseline at 60 seconds cooldown, hah), or (c) improve death...

    Blizzard recently asked for feedback on the Mythic+ experience, so here are my two cents: make high level Mythic+ accessible to Holy Priests by giving us baseline mobility and better survivability.
    I'd either like to see feathers baseline (which has been said 100x at this point), or, if they're just completely against that for whatever reason, give us inner fire+will (or just will as a passive) back so we can get some baseline movement speed and perhaps then consider not taking feathers (though even then it's such a huge QoL boost that we'll still probably prefer it). When feathers was originally added as a talent, it was not up against any talent that could keep you alive in PvE and we also had inner will as a movement speed buff.

    Run a dungeon as a holy priest without any mobility talents in an instance with no mounting with even a somewhat mobile tank and DPS and it's just a horrible experience constantly lagging behind. Feathers is now just a basic QoL ability that you're putting up against talents to make us die less. It doesn't make sense.

    edit: Will could even be a 10% movement speed buff in combat (as it was originally) and then go up to 20% OOC since half the reason we all take feathers is to keep up with people in dungeons when we're not even in combat. If we solved the OOC movement speed issue without feathers, perhaps feathers would make more sense vs. survival talents since it would now be more of a "do I need to move out of mechanics faster or survive bigger hits" type option.

    With Angel's Mercy it seems that you want to stick to a holy priest's theme of more healing and health to survive, which I suppose makes sense when you look through the very long list of old passives and talents we use to have related to survival. Unlike DR cooldowns, Desperate Prayer doesn't reduce how much damage you take, meaning even if you survive because of the extra health buffer, you now have to heal all that damage back, possibly very quickly. Perhaps if they want holy priests survival to be more thematic and involve DP, the DP buff should also increase the healing you take for the duration? That would fit into the holy priest history that included things like blessed recovery/resilience and test of faith. The health buffer of DP can also be adjusted up if it's insufficient to survive higher level content.

    Also, I still don't seem to have mind vision back in my spell book when I go holy. Hopefully an oversight and not the devs actually continuing to think Holy shouldn't be allowed to have this flavor spell for some bizarre reason.
    Blizzard, people are asking for a damage reduction cooldown. Desperate Prayer is great and all except that damage reduction is almost necessary to survive high level Mythic+ keys.

    I would love a blue post explaining why Holy Priests are not allowed damage reduction as a baseline in the toolkit.
    With the most recent beta updates we saw LotN become a level 100 talent. This talent needs to be either removed or made baseline. Nothing can compete with it. Now the synergy with Apoth and LotN is gone, making healing burst damage in m+ even worse. We now cant even use Salvation in raids or Apoth in M+/PvP because LotN is better. LotN also makes our rotation a little less brain dead.

    Talents which are taken 90-100% of the time need to be looked at. having our ONLY mobility on the talent tree against two defensive talents is poor design. There should be a nerfed version of feathers made baseline, then a talent which buffs feathers to what it is now. Which is basically what paladins and mages have had all Legion.

    Halo/Divine star/Circle of Healing need Holyword/Serendipity synergy to be even considered against low-mana-cost/passive talents. We have all these abilities on our talent tree but they're out performed by boring passives.

    I don't understand blizzards goal for Holy priest fantasy/design. We're the squishiest spec in the game, the least mobile, and we have to stand still to cast nearly everything. We have no strengths to offset our weaknesses other than pure HPS. It looks like Holy Priests are being punished for having Spirit of Redemption. If that's the reason we're refused proper mobility and defensives/utility then consider nerfing/removing it.
    I'm not impressed by this change...

    If this is their idea of survivability, I am super sad...

    Furthermore, what (meaningful) choice is there now at Tier 100. I can't think of any reason to take HW: S over LotN in raids, nor Apotheosis over LotN for dungeons. I see Binding Heal, Benediction, and Light of the Naaru being cookie-cutter for every situation...

    Guardian Angel, Circle of Healing, Divine Star, and Halo need to be reworked.

    Suggested change(s):
    Guardian Angel- When you cast Guardian Spirit, a second Guardian Spirit watches over you.
    Circle of Healing - Reduces the CD on Sanctify and Serenity by 6 seconds.
    Divine Star - Echo of Light triggered by Divine Star heals for 100% more in half the time. Divine Star has a wider area of effect and travels further.
    Halo - Prayer of Mending on players healed by Halo jump two times without consuming charges.

    Just some ideas...
    The changes this week for Holy are horrible. Nothing can compete with LotN or Feather. Holy feels really slow without LotN. They give us a new talent (HW:S) and then put the best talent that we have (LotN) in the same row. Now we will be even worse in M+ dungeons without Apotheosis/LotN.

    Our defensives have been laking for years now. Why do we have to spec into a movement ability when no other class in the game has to? No one will ever take Angel's Mercy or Perseverance . Playing this game, in any area, without a movement ability is near impossible. PvP, M+, and Raids.. All of these areas of the game are built around players having a speed boost of some kind. Why put H Priests Movement ability in a talent, pretending like there is a choice to be made there? It's really weird.

    I don't know why Blizzard can not see these problems. I feel like they want Holy to feel terrible. It is the only reason I could think of for these changes/lack there of.
    This new build gutted us for 5-mans even *more*. They removed the synergy that Apotheosis and LotN had together that made us at least hps and even dps machines in M+ when needed and have given us nothing else to compensate. I haven't done a talent by talent analysis like the most of you, so I thought I'd take this opportunity to do it.

    Talent Row 15

    This talent row is all about mana conservation and mana regeneration. The theme overall makes sense.

      Enlightenment - Boring, but effective. Doesn't really need any changes, though something like "You mana regeneration is increased in combat equal 50% of your mastery." or something so that we have some control over if we need more, need less, that would at least make it an interactive talent. But again, not needed.
      Trail of Light - Again, fine as is. A pretty good dungeon talent.
      Enduring Renewal - Changed. Renew now lasts 6 seconds longer (legendary legs), and your single-target healing spells refresh the duration of your Renew on the target.


    Talent Row 30

    This talent row is about survivability. However, it compromises our survivability by making us choose between mobility or a defensive, BOTH of which we desperately need more of, which makes this row just a mess.

      Angelic Feather - Changed. No longer a talent. Just make it baseline, ffs.
      Angel's Mercy - It's fine. I actually didn't mind the RNG element of Desperate Prayer's resets. It was pretty frequent. An idea to make this talent more interesting is possibly: "Every time Desperate Prayer resets, decrease damage taken by the priest by 10% for 10 seconds." This would not only make Desperate Prayer a nice defensive (even passively) since it'd proc off of damage *anyway*, but it would also give priests a reason to hit it often.
      Perseverance - This talent just remains completely lackluster in all forms. Personally, I say remove it and start over, but I know some priests like the idea of it. But it's never going to compete with feathers in this tier as is.


    New Ideas:

      Guardian Angel - Changed. Remove this from Tier 60 and turn this into a defensive. For example, make it apply Guardian Spirit to the priest as well as the target, just as the artifact trait. Additionally, when applied directly to the Priest instead of another target, maybe make it reduce damage taken istead of increase healing received. Alternatively...
      Spirit of the Redeemer - Your Spirit of Redemption is now an active ability with a 3 minute cooldown, but the duration is reduced by 8 seconds and you will no longer enter Spirit of Redemption upon dying. Basically, stealing this from the pvp talents.
      Afterlife - Changed. Without cloak, this talent has lost all appeal. Move this to the defensive tier and turn this into Cloak. When you enter Spirit of Redemption, you revive with equal to the amount of health you healed your party for. You cannot enter Spirit of Redemption again for 10 minutes.
      Focused - Completely New. Removes Focused Will. Replaces the passive with 2 active abilities. Inner Fire: Decreases all magic damage you take by 15%, stackign up to 2 times. Inner Will: Decreases all physical damage you take by 15%, stacking up to 2 times. Stances cannot be activated in combat. This would mean that the priest would need to decide which aura to go into combat with.


    FInal thoughts: Row 30 is still a complete mess. Plz fix.
    Talent Row 45

    This row completely lacks an identity. It seems to be the "not sure where else to put these talents" row. If we keep Cosmic Ripple there, then what this row can become is a way to boost our current healing toolkit.

      Cosmic Ripple - Keep as is. With numbers tuning, it can prolly usually find a place.
      Guardian Angel - Trash talent. Rework it or get rid of it. And I think it's on the wrong tier.
      Afterlife - Doesn't really have a place anymore without Cloak. Turn it into Cloak and/or a talent that turns our Spirit of Redemption into a defensive, as noted above. Either way, wrong tier.


    New Ideas:

      Light's Blessing - New. Basically Light of T'uure, giving us some burst single target healing. This was especially crucial (at least for me) in M+, especially when it came to the tanks. "Infuse the target with Light's Blessing, healing them for x amount of spellpower and increasing healing done to that target by 25% for 6 seconds."
      Divinity - Changed. Alright, I know that this talent was kind of broken, but what if it were a cd? A little mini-one that has only a 1.5 minute cd. "When you heal with a Holy Word spell, all healing is increased by 15% for 6 seconds. 1.5 minute cd." Just an idea.


    Talent Row 60

    This is our CC talent row. Now that it's not competing with Afterlife/Cloak combo, it's actually not a bad row.

      Psychic Voice - Fine as is.
      Shining Voice - To make this talent more viable and interesting in M+, it needs 2 things: 1) to be more reliable. It's so frustrating to hit it and for not a single mob to be thrown back even though I literally just saw a boomkin typhoon all of them. And 2) the distance it knocks mobs back *has* to be reduced somewhat. You can't go flinging mobs 40 yards in a M+. That's suicide, and so this talent is just too dangerous to take.
      Censure - Personally, my required talent at this point. Definitely a leveling talent. Would be really nice if a silence could be added to it...? But that's probably asking too much. (I just want to help interrupt, damnit!)


    Talent Row 75

    This is another row where I feel like the identity is kind of all over the place. It's like supposed to be promoting efficient mana spending, but CoH doesn't fit that at all. So quite plainly, I'm not sure I get what this row is about. But if the goal IS efficient healing, then let's see...

      Suge of Light - Fine as is. Has its place in 5-mans. It'll always compete with Binding Heal for which is more efficient, which I think is a good place for this talent to be.
      Binding Heal - Again, another talent that is fine as is, especially now that it helps lower the cd of your holy words. One QoL change I'd like to see is that even if you target yourself with the spell, it will still work, just choose 2 random targets to receive the other 2 bits of healing. There is obviously a macro floating around to fix those times you accidentally try to heal yourself with this spell, but anything that requires a macro to fix usually gets fixed on Blizzard's side eventually. My hope is this will happen here.
      Circle of Healing - Remove it from this tier. It doesn't belong here. There's nothing efficient about this spell except that it's an instant-cast. Instead...


    New Ideas:

      Benediction - Yes. Move Benediction here. Benediction is extremely efficient healing and having to choose between large aoe sustained healing - whic you'd usually want in a raid - compared to concentrated small group target healing - what you want in a dungeon - would give this tier a more clear identity. I think some people would absolutely *hate* this, of course, but I think it just makes more sense.
    Talent Row 90

    This row, with one change, can easily be the "add an active ability to your toolkit!" and all of them would be aoe healing, which would make this tier have a very clear identity. So let's get to it...

      Benediction - Remove it from this tier. It doesn't belong, and it will make the other 2 talents in this tier basically never be taken.
      Divine Star - Add the synergy back with Surge of Light, but maybe not as much as it was back in HFC. This will make both talents get taken more often.
      Halo - Increase the healing just a tad to compensate for the mana cost, and this talent will be great for spread AOE fights.


    New ideas:

      Circle of Healing - That's right. Move CoH to this tier. You then have 3 aoe heals to choose from, and this would make CoH the clear choice for 5-man content if you're going more hps focused or Divine Star for a bit of damage thrown in. It would also have its place in raid setups where the room is too small to benefit fully from Halo but people aren't stacked enough for Divine Star.


    Talent Row 100

    This talent row should be completely about cooldowns. Giving us new ones - or boosting our current one. Let's proceed.

      Light of the Naaru - Make this baseline. Screw this whole making it a talent thing. It will kill whatever row you put it on every time. This placement is even more detrimental considering it has *synergy* with both Apotheosis and Salvation.
      Apotheosis - I will want a shorter duration and shorter cd, personally, but I do get its place in M+. And as a M+ talent, it's perfect where it is.
      Holy Word: Salvation - Personally, I am not a fan of having to reduce the cd of a huge healing cd. That means it will be harder for healing leads to be able to plan healing cds and where they should go, which may or may not be the point. Either way, *personally* I'd like to see it just have a regular cd time that will make it more predictable, but if that won't happen, the it's prolly fine as is.


    New Ideas:

      Renew the Faith - Just as the artifact ability, it causes your PoM to jump continuously during Divine Hymn. I'm not sure if that's enough to make it compete with Salvation for a healing cd placement, but it's at least a start. Maybe also make it allow Hymn to (GASP) be casted while moving! Too much, I know, we're not allowed to heal while moving, but just an idea. Could make this talent very attractive for movement heavy fights.


    Anyway, this is the direction that I feel like our talents shoul take. It should be noted that I am not one of the top Holy Priests, I don't theorycraft for the community, nothing nearly as impressive as that...

    This is just the thoughts of a loyal Holy Priest who is really confused as to our current direction at the moment.
    From a PvP PoV, I was wondering if Holy Priests could see a change to Rapid Mending. It could still make PoM instant but the increased ranged could be removed. In exchange the old priest glyph that made the first tick of Prayer of Mending heal for more could be added. This would help with Holys issue of healing sustained ST damage (especially with the removal of the artifact).

    I'm excited to see if Holy Priests are useful in BfA arenas, even more so now they have fear again. Many thanks!

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