Holy Priest feedback

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06/01/2018 06:50 PMPosted by Sigma
We've seen a lot of feedback on Apotheosis (and level 100 generally) after the talent swap. 2 changes in next build:

--Duration 20s and cooldown 2min (from 30s and 3min). The shorter cooldown is likely worth a lot more than 10s of added duration, in terms of how you usually want to use it to deliver strong healing for a situation that doesn't necessarily last 30 seconds.

--The bonus is +300% rather than +200%. This matches the strength that it has on live when Light of the Naaru is taken. Apotheosis didn't need to be weakened outright, and can have the synergy with Light of the Naaru baked in, now that you can't take both.


Thank you so much for finally giving us a blue post, after weeks and weeks of us begging for something from the devs to give us a direction...

But what kind of a post is this?! Mobility and Survive-ability. Those are what we want, those are our key issues. I don't think anyone is crying about our hps, it's about what we bring or in our case can't bring to the team. We are going to get pushed out of mythic + AGAIN.
06/02/2018 05:01 AMPosted by Bodytriangle

Salvation can be used 2 or even 3 times per fight even after the nerf so not sure where this "can be used only once per fight" coming from. Before it could be used 3 or even 4 times.


Wrong.


Yes i am very wrong since i've already done it multiple times. :p
No you haven't.
06/02/2018 01:24 AMPosted by Isheriia
06/01/2018 09:53 PMPosted by Wasselin
...

What's even the point of having Holy Words reduce Salvation's cooldown if it still can only be used once per fight?

...

From who? From where? All of the feedback I see is on the lack of defensives.


Salvation can be used 2 or even 3 times per fight even after the nerf so not sure where this "can be used only once per fight" coming from. Before it could be used 3 or even 4 times.

Yeah, it's not entirely unfair. Before it had an effective CD that was about equal to Divine Hymn and did more healing on top of that.

Going back to my napkin math on page 1, if we assume one Serendipity proc every 3 seconds, we could expect to see a roughly 3 minute CD on HW:Salv. Assuming 4 seconds per proc, more like 3.5 minutes.

Probably more balanced overall, since you're sacrificing additional Holy Word heals to do it.
I don't understand the devs. I think they aren't reading the forums anymore. Almost this entire thread is us saying we have no baseline mobility and no DR. Then they turn around and are like "hey we're reshuffling your talents and bringing apotheosis back to what it was". Nobody really cared about anything that was done save the light of the naru changes.

We need our mobility and defensives looked at. Heck i would love the PvP talent where spirit becomes an active ability and you're immune to damage for the duration. We need a real DR, change desperate prayer to be like the MW new defensive. They are getting a 20% health AND 20% DR in an ability on a shorter cooldown, and it's not even a talent!!! They can get another DR from talents. What is going on? If you insist on it being only health it needs to be closer to a 50% health increase to make sure we aren't 1 shot.

Please just make feathers baseline and be done with it. We need mobility so much that it's taken 98% of the time. If you gave us a 50% DR talent I'm not sure anyone would take it because we can't get around fast enough without feathers. Even DK's are faster than us now, and they were supposed to be the slow immobile Mele.

All healers are supposed to be the same in throughput and it's their utility you look at whether to bring them or not. We have a raid heal, like every other healer, and a tank cd on a fairly large cd, and now our mana returning hymn that is useless in 5mans. What do we bring that others dont? Why should anyone bring a holy priest over any other healer? Pally's have amazing utility with auras and their cooldowns, shaman have their totems to help, druids are insanely mobile and have a great DR on a short cooldown and a battle red, monks bring aoe cc and stuns as well as a huge tank bubble and an aoe raid heal that is a mass dispel on steroids, and disc has damage reduction and absorbs. And holy are super squishy, immobile and bring nothing other healers can already do.
Trying very hard not to feel discouraged and put the blame on Salvation for making us invisible to the devs... (and half failing)...

Let's talk about something positive. Anybody think this will change Apotheosis's viability in raids? I do like the sound of that shorter cd.
06/02/2018 11:25 AMPosted by Strawberrey
Trying very hard not to feel discouraged and put the blame on Salvation for making us invisible to the devs... (and half failing)...

Let's talk about something positive. Anybody think this will change Apotheosis's viability in raids? I do like the sound of that shorter cd.


The shorter cooldown could help it synergies with certain raid mechanics and that could make it quite strong but who knows. Without knowing any of the fights it's hard to tell. Salvation is just so strong for raids it would be hard to beat, especially if you can get more than 1 off in an encounter.
I wonder why Holy Priest feedback on lack of mobility and damage reduction is being ignored. Maybe because it's an intentional weakness of the class and if the problem is that m+ one shots you maybe question the design of m+(which many are in regards to one shots) instead of asking for every class to be the same and have the exact same defensive capabilities and mobility just so they are all viable in m+.
06/02/2018 11:58 AMPosted by Caesa
I wonder why Holy Priest feedback on lack of mobility and damage reduction is being ignored. Maybe because it's an intentional weakness of the class and if the problem is that m+ one shots you maybe question the design of m+(which many are in regards to one shots) instead of asking for every class to be the same and have the exact same defensive capabilities and mobility just so they are all viable in m+.


This could indeed be the case, I've been wondering the same for a while
Some words about talents and spells (sorry for the grammar):

Binding heal:
Let's imagine Binding heal is "good" and we pick it. It's HPS nearly like PoH.
It's CD reduction (per second, per mana) is amazing. It's manacost close to Heal's manacost. Now our rotation is Binding, HWords and PoM (because of Benediction). We lose Heal,Flash Heal, PoH, Renew out of our rotation.
This is not good, when talent doesn't replace spell, but kick off 4! spells from our rotation.

Let's imagine Binding heal is "bad". If BH cost more mana or heal less it's became a dead talent. Low percent of players will pick it. Enduring renewal can helps a bit (on live it refresh renew on all targets of BH), but now it doesn't work( refresh renew only on a target).
This is not good, when talent dead and don't pickable on any situation.

Suggestion: rework it in some way or remove that poor disigne talent.

Divine star/Halo/Circle of healing/Prayer of Mending:

In Holy Priest's reality we want cast as much HWords as we can and reduce New 12 min cooldown as much as we can or casts as much HWords as we can during Apotheosis. This spells don't have synergy with HWords and slow down our reduction goal.

Suggestion: add this spells to HWord's synergy and reduce numbers from 6 to 5 or 4 seconds. I dont love feelings like " I cast Divine star but now my raid cooldown is 5 min instead of 4 min."

Prayer of Healing:

During the Legion we use PoH with Power of Naaru buff and last tier setbonuses. Without this effects Binding Heal is better than PoH. PoH costs too much mana and do too little healing.

Suggection: buff it in some way.

Renew:

Renew doesn't feel like spell that holy priest needed. Renew doesn't scale with mastery (our best stat). Renew cd reduction is bad. As i say before we want to maximize numbers of HWords and Renew can't help us with it. Only thing that Renew does is cost a slot on action bar.

Suggestion: Remove or reworked it. Good example of HOT spell within not a HOT spec is Riptide.

Guardian angel:
This talent is awful. It is bad even with double spirit and 4 min cooldown on live. One spirit and 3min cooldown made it much worse. We have a talent which reduce GA cooldown to 1min in War Mode . If GA doesn't proc with that talent its cooldown increased???? from 50 sec to 90. Talent which make cooldown worse, is that "good" disigne?

Defensive/movement issues:
Can't add more words about it. All topic is about it and Apotheosis happend.
If Blizzard insists on giving holy priests very little to no utility, mobility, or defensives, (in fact, they actually nerfed utility by tripling the cooldown on Mass Dispel) then they should either admit it's the "easy mode" healing spec, trading simpler/more straightforward gameplay for less overall effectiveness, or make us actual glass cannon healers. Holy Priests are the worst healers in the game from a toolkit perspective so would it really be imbalanced for them to be the best in the game raw output wise?

Or perhaps Blizzard's idea for the class fantasy of Holy Priest is somewhere in between the two. That being, they don't heal more than everyone else but they do achieve optimum HPS more easily whereas say a Mistweaver would have to work harder at achieving the same efficiency. This would effectively make them balanced for casual content but it would still mean if you want to raid mythic you better switch specs to disc.
I agree if we are to be the squishiest healer with the least utility then make us do 15%-20% more healing throughput than the other healers. It's not really fair to have us gimped in one department with no benefits in others.
They'll never do that, and i'm not sure I'd want them to either.

It would allow healing comps with a Holy Priest to maybe underheal a bit, but that would still be the only benefit of bringing a Holy Priest.

Since you can't really control how much damage everyone is taking, having one healer put out so much more hps has very little benefit, except for the ability to drop healers. Which for higher end rosters might be possible, but I know at my raiding level, telling some of my healers to just not show up 'cause I'm healing tonight is the absolute last thing I want.
06/02/2018 11:58 AMPosted by Caesa
I wonder why Holy Priest feedback on lack of mobility and damage reduction is being ignored. Maybe because it's an intentional weakness of the class and if the problem is that m+ one shots you maybe question the design of m+(which many are in regards to one shots) instead of asking for every class to be the same and have the exact same defensive capabilities and mobility just so they are all viable in m+.


Then tell us that and then change mythic+ fights so we have more opportunity to use our utility. There is definitely an opportunity in mythic+ for them to give us some mobs with awesome buffs to mind control and some encounters to pull people to us with Leap of Faith. Who knows what Fade would be useful for but I'm sure they could think of something.

When someone is choosing between that holy pally or holy priest in that mythic+ group finder window to think we could take the holy pally cause he can bubble or we can take the priest because he can X. For it not to be an automatic choice to take holy pally/resto druid.

It sucks to end up being defined by your weaknesses instead of by your strengths-- but from what I have seen so far that will be the case for holy priest again in BFA mythic+.
I agree with the general feeling about the defensive CDs for Holy Priests, and I think the main issue is the lack of communication/feedback on the subject, even if the feedback was something like:

"We hear you about the defensive CDs, the approach we are taking is that with new dungeon design made with M+ in mind from the start and we want to first see how the M+ meta turns out and adjust from there, but we have your concerns in mind and we will re-visit this subject once we have data for M+"

I would be fine with something like that and I think that's very likely the approach they wanna take but if we get nothing that at least acknowledge the concerns we have well that's when people feel ignored.
The Apoth change just shows how strong LotN is.

"Talent choices" indeed.
I would not be cool with that. I don't want a wait and see approach, because we already know how it will turn out. There is no evidence that anything is changing about the damage in M+. It will be the same old thing. Every other spec in the game has at least one personal DR CD. It is obvious that the entire game is and will be built around this. All waiting will mean is we get to sit out of certain content for the first half of the xpack. Besides our defensive problem has been around since before legion. We have already been waiting for years for this fix.
Upvoted. I don't play a Holy Priest but my buddy does that heals most of our high keys, and they're limited due to their survivability. They can't heal past 25 on a lot of fights due to the repetitve high damage (one shot Priest) mechanics like Leap on Arch Druid in DHT, Slam in Arcway on the Felguard boss, and Focused Lightning from the 2nd boss in Eye as a few examples. Meanwhile Paladin survivability is off the wall.
06/01/2018 06:50 PMPosted by Sigma
We've seen a lot of feedback on Apotheosis (and level 100 generally) after the talent swap. 2 changes in next build:

--Duration 20s and cooldown 2min (from 30s and 3min). The shorter cooldown is likely worth a lot more than 10s of added duration, in terms of how you usually want to use it to deliver strong healing for a situation that doesn't necessarily last 30 seconds.

--The bonus is +300% rather than +200%. This matches the strength that it has on live when Light of the Naaru is taken. Apotheosis didn't need to be weakened outright, and can have the synergy with Light of the Naaru baked in, now that you can't take both.


Thank you for this change. Can we please have some of your thoughts on halo and star? We are stcuk with a cookie cutter choice of benediction right now. Would be nice to have some more variety.

Fade could also act as a damage modifier like in PvP per people's comments above on M+. Just a suggestion.
06/03/2018 02:31 PMPosted by Twyll
Thank you for this change. Can we please have some of your thoughts on halo and star? We are stcuk with a cookie cutter choice of benediction right now. Would be nice to have some more variety.


I see so many people saying this, has any of them actually tested it or done the math for it?

Because without Piety, a couple of artifact traits, the nerf to benediction (30% from 40%) and the buffs to Divine star and Halo I wouldn't be surprised if things are already different..

With simple math we can see that Benediction (with perfect play) accounts for an average of 7.5 renews per minute, assuming also that it doesn't overwrite an existing one. Halo on the other hand does about the same healing per target as a full duration renew so in theory hitting 4 persons every 30sec with Halo would be more healing than the 7.5 renews a minute, ofc Benediction is free healing and Halo has a cast time and all but in a large group Halo can probably do a lot more healing. Oh also Halo and Divine star trigger mastery and renew hot doesn't.

And a similar analysis can be done with Divine Star (I just posted the halo one because is easier).

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