No-Flying in BFA, Good / bad?

General Discussion
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04/03/2018 01:04 AMPosted by Arithawn
Hmmm so you got lazy and started to do lfr instead of finding or creating your own group


But LFR is a tool Blizzard put in. There's no rule saying he can't do it. How is that lazy? It's like saying random bg's are lazy and LFD is lazy. Nobody makes a a group for Deadmines and run to the meeting stone anymore.
04/03/2018 01:06 AMPosted by Aladarr
...Hmmm so you got lazy and started to do lfr instead of finding or creating your own group.....sounds a bit hypocritical to attack "milennials" who are lazy and don't want to do pathfinder to fly when you are doing something very similar yourself....


You think I switched from regular raiding to LFR..

you !@#$ing piece of %^-* how dare you insult me

I quit raiding AT ALL when LFR hit

Chill out edgelord. Its only a game.
04/03/2018 01:33 AMPosted by Difford
04/03/2018 01:04 AMPosted by Arithawn
Hmmm so you got lazy and started to do lfr instead of finding or creating your own group


But LFR is a tool Blizzard put in. There's no rule saying he can't do it. How is that lazy? It's like saying random bg's are lazy and LFD is lazy. Nobody makes a a group for Deadmines and run to the meeting stone anymore.

I'd agree that anyone who only uses LFR (Or LFD) isn't lazy. If you're the kind of player who's only comfortable with the queueing tools Blizz gives you to do the dungeon and raid content, that doesn't make you 'lazy'.

But it does probably mean you're bad at the game.
04/03/2018 01:48 AMPosted by Lowlord
But it does probably mean you're bad at the game.


How so? You could be very good at the game but your interests could lie elsewhere. It's like someone who could be very good at PvP but only chooses to do bg's instead of arena's.

That's pure assumption with no factual evidence at all.
I really like the idea of Pathfinder. Saves me a lot of gold because I have more alts now than I care to admit to (but I'm not as bad as Deathchix =p )

However, putting in a BS timegate has always been the "bad idea." Hunting treasures, doing loremaster, exploring every corner of the zone, and completing the xpac's major story line is all we need to appreciate the xpac. Making us appreciate it for 6 months or more "for reasons" is just asinine.
I'm fine with being grounded and doing a Pathfinder achieve to earn flying. I also don't mind having new content areas no-fly zones, as long as the terrain isn't a nightmare to navigate (think Timeless Isle, not Argus).

However, I disagree with flight being withheld for a good chunk of an expansion, locked behind multiple layers of content released over time.

I'd rather see the entire Pathfinder achieve laid out at the start, and once all the criteria is met, you can fly. Let the players choose how fast they want to earn it. Some will grind it out quickly, while others (like myself) will get it organically through playing each day.

Allowing players to have -some- control over their virtual lives is a good thing.
04/03/2018 02:12 AMPosted by Difford
04/03/2018 01:48 AMPosted by Lowlord
But it does probably mean you're bad at the game.


How so? You could be very good at the game but your interests could lie elsewhere. It's like someone who could be very good at PvP but only chooses to do bg's instead of arena's.

That's pure assumption with no factual evidence at all.

Probably, as in a majority, and not 100%. But yeah, I'd bet money that most people who only raid via LFR or only do dungeons via LFD are probably pretty bad. The time it takes to create a group to do Normal/Heroic isn't much longer than waiting in an LFR queue, sometimes shorter, and same with dungeons. So that means they either only want to do easier content because they don't feel like doing marginally more difficult content for better rewards OR they're trash players. Based on my experience in LFR and LFD plus a little bit of Occam's Razor it's safe to say most players fall in the latter category.

Of course, this doesn't count for examples like yours of someone who doesn't enjoy content like PvE and so would only occasionally queue for LFR or LFD for quests and other small reasons. But anyone else is probably just plain old not good. You can usually point em out on the forums when they only post on alts or lack any decent logs or cleared content on their mains.
You're still assuming with no factual evidence. I watched Preach's videos series 'Fresh Account' playing from a new players perspective. Getting Keystone Master was a nightmare without a guild but this is where I'm going to make a point. Preach extrapolated that 90% of the people in this PUG circle of nightmare were just bad players.

Now using your opinion, aren't these players supposed to be better than LFR players? (using your logic) It's at a higher skill level isn't it? So therefore they MUST be good right? They aren't.

This is why you can't assume because the player could be bad anyway and not get better OR they are actually good but choose not to do anything higher than LFR due to time restrictions, lifestyle etc. Perhaps they just want to see the inside of the raid and that's it.
You're still assuming with no factual evidence. I watched Preach's videos series 'Fresh Account' playing from a new players perspective. Getting Keystone Master was a nightmare without a guild but this is where I'm going to make a point. Preach extrapolated that 90% of the people in this PUG circle of nightmare were just bad players.

Now using your opinion, aren't these players supposed to be better than LFR players? (using your logic) It's at higher skill level isn't it? So therefore they MUST be good right? They aren't.

This is why you can't assume because the player could be bad anyway and not get better OR they are actually good but choose not to do anything higher than LFR due to time restrictions, lifestyle etc. Perhaps they just want to see the inside of the raid and that's it.


Oh I'm not saying they're great, but they're definitely better. ALSO most players who are good and initially PUG find a guild, very few stay pugging.

Preach's evidence is anecdotal, as is mine, though I don't think it's much different. LFR only players are the absolute bottom of the barrel. They can't perform well and, either due to that or along side it, can't utilize the social part of the game to find groups or guilds to try better content with. PUGs are a mixed bag, many are also unexceptional, but many are competent enough to complete the content they signed up for.

Have I had people in pugs be terrible? Yeah
Have I had people in pugs be good or even great? Yeah
Have I had people in LFR or LFD be good or even great? Yeah, but they also do Normal - Mythic
Have I had people in LFR or LFD who ONLY do LFR or LFD be good? No. Never. Not once.

I'm sorry, I feel like I'm attacking you and that's not the case. I realize not everyone can do well in higher content and are intimidated by trying to group with others, and it's probably uncomfortable to post on your main so that people scrutinize your logs and performance. But you have to realize that people at your level aren't playing at skill level that is considered "Good." It's functional for the content you're doing, but it's hard not to be when the mechanics of LFR are built to allow for success even with major mistakes from multiple players. Even normal raids require little information and execution to beat, and there are plenty of guilds who are open to almost any player who can run normals with a variety of players with varying levels of skill and commitment.

I guess it's possible that it's a social thing, but then it seems odd to choose a game where that social aspect is a major part of the game. This is, again, where I choose the simplest answer which is that the player isn't skilled enough to do anything above LFR.
There are a few things i dont like about how flying is handled.

One thing in particular is not knowing when flight will be available.

Another is the feeling of having to do so much before you can get it.

It's just too bad people at Blizz don't want to have a natural way to include flight. I mean that is at the core, isn't it. "We would have to design stuff around flight" paraphrasing, but i think that might be cool. A natural way to include flight.
Are the zones going to be designed without Flight in mind? If so, then I don't mind it in the least - but I'm at least hoping they offer it as a reward for completing content, much like how Pathfinder works now.

I've already pre-ordered BfA, much as I have for past expansions. Whether or not there is flight won't impact my decision to play.
It’s bad. I’m not sure if I will be staying if it takes 6 months to get flying. That is a bit much imo.
04/02/2018 11:36 PMPosted by Phumbles
04/02/2018 08:39 PMPosted by Valynx
...

Says the original and infinitely superior implementation of the feature, back when the developers were content to make the game for the player's sake, not their own.
Oh you mean when most players weren't even max level?

Nice to see you show up to troll another flying thread as usual but just for the heck of it I'll bite on this comment.

The number of players who never made it to max level in Wrath and Cata was due to business design, not game design. People didn't want to have purchase each expansion separately in order to get to the latest content so they didn't bother. They stuck with the base game and maybe would buy BC if they got tired of the base game, or they just skipped playing WoW.

Blizzard started changing things mid-Cata by first rollling BC into the base game then adding WotLK just before MoP's release and finally adding Cata mid-MoP. Since then, new players have only had to purchase the base game plus newest expansion and returning players have only had to purchase the newest expansion to reach level cap. As a result, far more players have at least one level capped character in the most recent expansions than did in the earlier ones.

So feel free to find some other perceived flaw in the older expansions to support your opinion that current game design is superior. Percentage of players with level cap characters by expansion is not relevant.
Argus was what made lots quit. They took away flying after barely having it so people left in mass. Still no flying in Argus when everything is over is a bit absurd.
I am okay with a simple pathfinder (exploration, questing, treasure hunting, rare mob slaying, etc.) available to be completed on launch but I am absolutely not at all okay with long rep grinds and time gates thru the staggered release of additional boring requirements.

I also used to really enjoy zones that were designed specifically with a flight requirement (like Netherstorm, Icecrown, Storm Peaks, etc.) because they felt so massive and epic. I personally feel that end game patch content like timeless isle,argus and the like would be more enjoyable and better received if they were not no-flight zones, but in fact, so epic that you NEEDED flight to get around.

Daze gets old and annoying fast... breath taking landscapes do not.
Pathfinder would be fine without the massive, arbitrary time gating that they seem infatuated with.
04/03/2018 02:31 AMPosted by Lowlord
<span class="truncated">...</span>

How so? You could be very good at the game but your interests could lie elsewhere. It's like someone who could be very good at PvP but only chooses to do bg's instead of arena's.

That's pure assumption with no factual evidence at all.

Probably, as in a majority, and not 100%. But yeah, I'd bet money that most people who only raid via LFR or only do dungeons via LFD are probably pretty bad. The time it takes to create a group to do Normal/Heroic isn't much longer than waiting in an LFR queue, sometimes shorter, and same with dungeons. So that means they either only want to do easier content because they don't feel like doing marginally more difficult content for better rewards OR they're trash players. Based on my experience in LFR and LFD plus a little bit of Occam's Razor it's safe to say most players fall in the latter category.

Of course, this doesn't count for examples like yours of someone who doesn't enjoy content like PvE and so would only occasionally queue for LFR or LFD for quests and other small reasons. But anyone else is probably just plain old not good. You can usually point em out on the forums when they only post on alts or lack any decent logs or cleared content on their mains.


Bad players are all over. Doing normal/heroic and mythic plus dungeons is no guarantee, whatsoever, that a player is good. Heck I have killed mythic bosses when the tier is current and I can almost guarantee you would consider me a bad player.

And how the heck did this thread get derailed to LFR anyway.
04/03/2018 03:01 AMPosted by Lowlord
I guess it's possible that it's a social thing, but then it seems odd to choose a game where that social aspect is a major part of the game. This is, again, where I choose the simplest answer which is that the player isn't skilled enough to do anything above LFR.

You left out another factor, which is the player's computer. A lot of players are at minimum system requirements or even below that. Skill only goes so far when you're playing at 3-5 FPS.

Most people are smart enough to know they're just going to drag down a serious group doing harder difficulties so they stick to LFR where it's not as big a problem.
04/03/2018 04:17 AMPosted by Joynal
04/03/2018 03:01 AMPosted by Lowlord
I guess it's possible that it's a social thing, but then it seems odd to choose a game where that social aspect is a major part of the game. This is, again, where I choose the simplest answer which is that the player isn't skilled enough to do anything above LFR.

You left out another factor, which is the player's computer. A lot of players are at minimum system requirements or even below that. Skill only goes so far when you're playing at 3-5 FPS.

Most people are smart enough to know they're just going to drag down a serious group doing harder difficulties so they stick to LFR where it's not as big a problem.


It actually is a bigger problem in LFR than if those people raided with a normal guild group since with a guild group they would be the only one being carried and not them and 6 others like them.
04/03/2018 02:26 AMPosted by Penny
I'm fine with being grounded and doing a Pathfinder achieve to earn flying. I also don't mind having new content areas no-fly zones, as long as the terrain isn't a nightmare to navigate (think Timeless Isle, not Argus).

However, I disagree with flight being withheld for a good chunk of an expansion, locked behind multiple layers of content released over time.

I'd rather see the entire Pathfinder achieve laid out at the start, and once all the criteria is met, you can fly. Let the players choose how fast they want to earn it. Some will grind it out quickly, while others (like myself) will get it organically through playing each day.

Allowing players to have -some- control over their virtual lives is a good thing.
I think this is probably the only sane perspective on the whole issue I’ve seen so far. Well said.

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