Mistweaver Monk Feedback

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Hi there, looking to see what fellow mistweavers think about their changes going into Beta.

I've had the alpha since it launched in the family and friends stage, but haven't had much opportunity to play with my monk.

What are your thoughts on soothing mist being a casted ability? I feel like this limits our ability to be a more traditional healer and forces us to focus more on fistweaving.

How about Effuse being removed? I'm going to try it in more dungeons soon, but I already miss having the low mana cost spot heal in Effuse.

What other changes have you noticed in the spec that you think will significantly change our gameplay?

-Quinnastre
I like have soothing mist back. I'd say soothing mist is a very efficient filler, so we're really not missing an efficient single target heal. SooM even out heals EM if an EM buff is up... It would be nice if mastery worked with SooM. IE: if they aren't changing our mastery to someting else, the existing mastery should proc at 1/8th the strength on every tick of soothing mist.

04/25/2018 08:39 AMPosted by Quinnastre
What are your thoughts on soothing mist being a casted ability? I feel like this limits our ability to be a more traditional healer and forces us to focus more on fistweaving.


I don't think that makes sense. You can't channel soothing mist and fist weave at the same time. Soothing mist is just a more unique efficient heal mechanic that also gives the bonus of getting off our other core spells fast (having a heal hit instantly instead of at the end of a GCD can be a life saving difference).

Soothing mist also currently has a 1s GCD in beta. The fast GCD of SooM is an important aspect of the mechanic. In MoP we had a 1s baseline GCD for everything, which was neat. Then in WoD we had a 0.5 second GCD just for SooM. I don't know if 1s soothing only will feel good enough in BfA, but we'll see. Just changing it from 1.5 to 1s in a patch was very noticeable in how it felt.

----

A suggestion I made in the recent thread in the class dev forum that I think would be good is changing Rushing Jade Wind into a Spinning Crane Kick replacement (which is what it use to be). It could simply do the same healing it already does, but add in doing the same damage SCK would do over the same duration. That would make it a lot more attractive of a talent in situations outside of raid stack healing. You'd now want to use it while soloing and in 5 mans to help add AoE damage while being able to use other abilities.

At the end of the above mentioned thread we were discussing possible talent changes including possibly having an entire talent row that was just different statue options:

04/24/2018 01:02 PMPosted by Zenetta
If the entire row were statues it could be the existing serpent statue + a crane statue that did something like every time you use a melee ability it could send a crane out from the statue to heal a random target (stealing form the invoke chi-ji graphic) + maybe an ox statue with the old guard mechanic where every so much healing or damage dealt would put up a shield on a random target. If having both invoke chi-ji on the AoE tier and a crane statue on the statue tier was too similar they could replace invoke chi-ji with invoke xuen as a cooldown that did damage + smart healed targets based on that damage (leaving the neat chi-ji graphics in place as part of the statues effect).


04/24/2018 03:24 PMPosted by Zenetta
Just to add more to the crane statue idea in terms of the graphic, after running to a target to heal it could stick around for a few seconds at most before vanishing, unless you use another melee attack, in which case the crane that's already out runs at another target randomly to heal them the way invoke chi-ji does. When it's not already out it can run out from the statue.

I think it was also in an alpha thread that is no longer available, but if they didn't like the old guard proc ox statue idea, another statue idea could be an ox statue that has a ring around it. All targets within the ring receive X% damage reduction (sort of a statue form of devo aura).


My idea also involved ditching the entire tier 45 talents and getting a decent mana related ability baseline. I'd even like having an old style type mana tea back which could just give stacks when you cast certain spells since we don't have chi to spend, but nobody else has really seemed interested in that idea. Old style mana tea did mean it was really hard for us to completely run out of mana, but it involved finding decent opportunities to chug mana tea (the glyph simplified that, but the non-glyphed mechanic I think had a decent trade-off). It was sort of like an energy based healer in that you couldn't sustain heavy casting for as long as another healer, but you could get your mana back in a way that they couldn't. It was an interesting trade.

Removing the 45 talents would then give us room to have an AoE centered talent row such as RJW + invoke chi ji (or xuen instead if we didn't want two chi ji related talents) and a third AoE talent in addition to having an entire row for statues.

One idea for a new AoE talent in the new empty spot could be to transform vivify from its current uplift + effuse/surging mist combo form into a Legion style vivify (possibly a effuse + vivify combo where it heals the main target and 3 others). That way people who hate the uplift mechanic could choose between having an extra AoE ability or a smarter easier to use vivify.
I'm glad we've gone back to this soothing mist. I liked it a lot in wod. Didn't like legions version.
Like all of the changes so far, spec moving in a very positive direction.

That said, there are always things that can be improved.

Mastery
Gust of Mists is now in a super awkward position where the most efficient single target heal, Soothing Mist, does not interact with mastery whatsoever. This feels weird because we need an absurd amount of mastery to make either EnM or Vivify more efficient than Soothing for healing a single target, which really means that the only role mastery has anymore is in extremely aggressive single-target healing, so basically M+ tank healing. It does something off of ReM, but not frequently enough to warrant an entire stat.

I think that the issue is that the Essence Font interaction is out-dated and whether we take Essence Well or Rising Mists, the spec becomes more and more centered around Essence Font. When a lot of damage happens, I want to do more healing with Essence Font, not invest my stats in something that will heal at many as 6 whole seconds later, even if it would provide comparable healing.

I don't really have a good, clean solution to this, but maybe just tacking on "and increases the healing of Essence Font by [some percentage]" will both keep Essence Font relevant in 5 mans and keep Mastery relevant in raids, even if it isn't tuned to be the best stat as long as it is "okay."

Chi-Ji

Our beloved crack bird is still saddled with the same issue his brothers Xuen and Niuzhao have always had in that a 3 minute cooldown spread all the way across 45 seconds just feels really bad to use in most situations. When I want to do more healing, it's generally for a dangerous period lasting 10-30 seconds, never 45. Xuen has a cool change for BFA that it's only a 20 second duration on a 2 minute cooldown, and something like that would go a long way towards making Chi-Ji feel more like a powerful cooldown.

Vivify

I honestly don't understand the point of Vivify exactly now. Unless we go all-out, using TFT on ReM, and dropping nearly all Mastery, Vivify feels a lot like Flash Heal pretending to be Prayer of Healing. I find myself trying to use it as a group heal only to find that the main target is healed for generally 3-4x what the secondary targets get healed for after Gust of Mists is taken into account.

My real concern is why does the primary target have a higher base amount when Gust of Mists exists and actually already does that to Vivify anyway? It just feels like rather than Soothing/EnM being single target and EF/Vivify being the group healing side, Vivify fills this weird role as a Flash Heal type spell when tank healing if Soothing and EnM enough but if I want to group heal it seems really bad at doing that job. I just don't like how it feels to use this spell and I feel like I'm doing something wrong whenever I do.

Keep up the good changes, like where MW is going as a whole.
They need to change "Thunder Focus Tea" on how it effects "Enveloping Mist" since you can already get instant "Enveloping Mist" off of "Soothing Mist". This is a big oversight.
04/25/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Oóba
They need to change "Thunder Focus Tea" on how it effects "Enveloping Mist" since you can already get instant "Enveloping Mist" off of "Soothing Mist". This is a big oversight.
in a mythic raid setting you shouldnt be casting soothing mist much. nor enveloping mist at all. its more effective hps in raid to keep your renewing mists up and hard cast vivify, casting essence font then (using the new rising mist talent) immediately after your essence font cd finishes casting to rising sun kick for the best hps / raid healing. yes the soothing mist change makes us a viable tank healer but a pally will ALWAYS be better
04/25/2018 08:39 AMPosted by Quinnastre
What are your thoughts on soothing mist being a casted ability? I feel like this limits our ability to be a more traditional healer and forces us to focus more on fistweaving.


How so? As someone who enjoys Legion 'fistweaving', I'm actually concerned that having to use the new Soothing Mist is going to prevent me from meleeing as much as I'd like to.

04/25/2018 08:39 AMPosted by Quinnastre
How about Effuse being removed? I'm going to try it in more dungeons soon, but I already miss having the low mana cost spot heal in Effuse.


I'm glad Effuse is gone. I basically never used it and resented the 7.2/7.3 artifact traits that were designed to push us to use it. Before those traits were added, Vivify was more efficient than Effuse as a single-target heal. I'd rather just have the one 'flash heal'.

That said, I'm not really happy with the changes to Vivify. I understand that they had to nerf the healing on the secondary targets to make up for the fact that we can theoretically hit 5 people with it if we do it after some FT TFT RM spam. But in practice, the primary target will basically always have RM, so we'll typically max out at 4 targets, and most of the time it'll just be 3 like it is on live. And it requires a bunch of setup and ramp-up time just to get that much out of it. So I don't think reducing the secondary target healing by that much is justified, and I think it's really leaving a hole in our small-group healing.
04/25/2018 08:25 PMPosted by Totalchai

Vivify

I honestly don't understand the point of Vivify exactly now. Unless we go all-out, using TFT on ReM, and dropping nearly all Mastery, Vivify feels a lot like Flash Heal pretending to be Prayer of Healing. I find myself trying to use it as a group heal only to find that the main target is healed for generally 3-4x what the secondary targets get healed for after Gust of Mists is taken into account.

My real concern is why does the primary target have a higher base amount when Gust of Mists exists and actually already does that to Vivify anyway? It just feels like rather than Soothing/EnM being single target and EF/Vivify being the group healing side, Vivify fills this weird role as a Flash Heal type spell when tank healing if Soothing and EnM enough but if I want to group heal it seems really bad at doing that job. I just don't like how it feels to use this spell and I feel like I'm doing something wrong whenever I do.


I agree with Total's thoughts on Vivify, but also want to bring up Uplifting Trance's place in the kit.

Having it as such a massive swing in power at 40% healing increase, while also depending on "true" RNG (no procs-per-minute guarantee/limiter, it's entirely based on Renewing Mist's ticks), makes the baseline power of Vivify so much weaker without the buff. And with the loss of the artifact traits Dancing Mists and Extended Healing, the rate at which you gain UT buffs has gone down considerably, leaving this relatively weaker form of Vivify to be our filler group heal, where it falls flat as a group heal.

The primary target healing being so strong without considering Mastery healing, as Total said above, doesn't make sense when we have a Mastery whose entire purpose is to put incentive on target selection. Doubling down on non-Mastery healing, especially when primary target's Vivify healing is buffed through UT, just makes Mastery as a stat weaker. Why would I increase Mastery rating when I can instead increase Critical Strike or Versatility to increase healing outside of the initial Mastery hit?

Vivify, without Uplifting Trance, feels weak. Uplifting Trance, now rarer than it had been in Legion, is too powerful to be healthy for the spell.
04/25/2018 09:11 PMPosted by Yuno
04/25/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Oóba
They need to change "Thunder Focus Tea" on how it effects "Enveloping Mist" since you can already get instant "Enveloping Mist" off of "Soothing Mist". This is a big oversight.
in a mythic raid setting you shouldnt be casting soothing mist much. nor enveloping mist at all. its more effective hps in raid to keep your renewing mists up and hard cast vivify, casting essence font then (using the new rising mist talent) immediately after your essence font cd finishes casting to rising sun kick for the best hps / raid healing. yes the soothing mist change makes us a viable tank healer but a pally will ALWAYS be better


Yuno you clearly do not have beta then.
1: soothing mist has a 1sec. gcd. making it faster than both vivify and enveloping mists cast time. thus soothing mist should be THE precursor to either spell. on top of that you are healing for more in a shorter period of time.
2: how do you know what to do in bfa raids already?
3: rising mist hits like a wet noodle. you would need to heal 15+ people with half of them being crits to equal 1 enveloping mist cast.
04/25/2018 09:11 PMPosted by Yuno
in a mythic raid setting you shouldnt be casting soothing mist much. nor enveloping mist at all. its more effective hps in raid to keep your renewing mists up and hard cast vivify

What the hell does that have to do with what he said?

In Mythic Plus you use Enveloping Mists all the time and he's right. The TFT effect needs to be looked at.
In response to the TFT comments:

I think there are 2+ MW threads so I may have mentioned this in another thread or in alpha or something, but TFT with EM now adds a upfront heal in addition to making it instant. TFT can also be cast while channeling soothing without interrupting soothing because TFT is still off the GCD (and should remain that way).

TFT offers a lot of options in how you use it:

  • Faster AoE Heal via EF
  • Mana savings via free vivify
  • Extra HoT + extra Vivify healing via extra RM
  • Insant Burst heal via EM


    • Even with Soothing Mist, TFT + EM can be useful to instantly burst heal a target not currently being channeled on, which is still 1 second faster than using SooM first. If you're already channeling SooM onto the target, TFT now adds 130% healing upfront to EM.

      I do think that may not be enough to make TFT + EM an attractive option vs. free vivify, especially since the class currently has prohibitive mana costs and the only way to deal with them is TFT+Vivify and lackluster options on the 45 tier.

      Perhaps they could buff TFT to either make any cast it affects free + the current effect or at least add a % cost reduction to other spells so you're always saving some mana. They could then add another effect for Vivify such as always act as though you have uplifting trance when casting TFT+vivify (and don't consume UT if it's active when you TFT+vivify). That could contribute to helping MW mana issues if they don't want to give us a better baseline tool or improve the 45 talents (replace life cycles at least, it's terrible and doesn't create an interesting playstyle or add to an existing one).
    We need Pool of Mist back, so charges to Renewing Mist, if you continue with the implementation of Vivifuplift. Otherwise we have no control over Vivify other than pressing Renewing Mist on cooldown, that's what made healing interesting in WOD.

    Not entirely a fan of Soothing Mist making a return, only way this is going to be of any use is to spam somebody, and without the statue being baseline, it's going to be weird. I wish we had a talent that would replace it by something else, but I guess it will find its use in tank healing.

    Yet one of the biggest issue with mistweavers for all of Legion was how our gear was problematic due to having 2 good stats for raiding and 2 good stats for dungeons, making haste and mastery completely useless in raiding while all our legendaries had those stats. I really hope stats will be more balanced in BFA.

    Also, I know it's not a big deal, but please, yes PLEASE, give Revival its Yu'lon animation back.. that's one of the most iconic we have.
    I've been doing a fair amount of dungeon healing at 120 trying to get a feel for how the spec plays in BFA. I have to say I'm not really enthusiastic.

    1. I don't like the Vivify/Renewing Mist interaction.

    Our Mastery/RM interaction is awkward enough already - we want to cast RM on someone who really needs the healing, but that often turns out to be the person that RM jumps to right as we hit the button.

    With Vivify using RM to select targets, it becomes even more important to get RM onto people who are going to need more healing, but it also becomes more important not to lose RMs by accidentally overwriting them. The resulting 'choice' ends up being more frustrating than fun.

    The other problem is that RM-based target selection means Vivify will keep hitting the same secondary targets until they're topped off. I strongly prefer the live version; it may not select ideal targets every time, but at least it usually selects different targets every time.

    2. Vivify doesn't do enough healing on secondary targets.

    It seems like the reduction to 45% healing on secondary targets is designed with the worst-case scenario in mind, where we have Renewing Mist on four targets and we're healing a fifth. That gives us a total of 280% of the primary target's heal, vs. 300% on live.

    But that worst-case scenario can only happen if we take the Focused Thunder talent, and then only for 7.5 seconds out of every 30, right after we cast a FT TFT-empowered series of 3 RMs. Without FT, we top out at 235% for 9 seconds. Most of of the time, we max out at 190%, which is a huge nerf from the live version.

    To make matters worse, the person we want to heal directly almost always has RM. So I very frequently find myself only hitting one additional target for 145% total healing (less than half of live), and it's usually not even the one I most want to hit. I feel like a paladin with a crappy bootleg Beacon with a long cooldown and a mind of its own.

    4. Soothing Mist and Spirit of the Crane don't play well together.

    Active Soothing Mist seems nice for monks who want to play Mistweaver as a traditional ranged healer. But monks who take Spirit of the Crane need to fiil essentially every possible GCD with melee abilities to get our talent point's worth, which means we don't really have time to stand around channeling tiny heals. (This isn't something that can be fixed with numbers tweaks; if using Soothing Mist as filler saves more mana than SotC generates, then SotC becomes a useless talent.)

    The only think I find myself using Soothing Mist for is to get Enveloping Mist off slightly faster. But this doesn't actually save a significant amount of time; it just makes the initial hit land faster. And using it for Vivify is a net loss of time. In any case, it doesn't really feel good to start up the Soothing Mist channel just to use the buff for one GCD and immediately cancel it.

    It would be really helpful if Spirit of the Crane either provided some low-level healing or gave us some instant casts. (I think this would be a really great place for Renewing-Mist-based target selection...something like Rising Mist, but tied to the extra Blackout Kicks from Teachings of the Monastery. And it would be super cool if the amount of the heal were based on our Mastery.)

    5. Rising Mist can't compete with Focused Thunder.

    This is partly because Rising Mist's numbers are low and partly because of the way Focused Thunder interacts with the Renewing Mist/Vivify interaction. I think both of these need to be addressed.

    6. Using Enveloping Mist while channeling Soothing Mist with TFT active eats a TFT charge.

    This shouldn't happen.
    04/30/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Zephyrs
    4. Soothing Mist and Spirit of the Crane don't play well together.

    Active Soothing Mist seems nice for monks who want to play Mistweaver as a traditional ranged healer. But monks who take Spirit of the Crane need to fiil essentially every possible GCD with melee abilities to get our talent point's worth, which means we don't really have time to stand around channeling tiny heals. (This isn't something that can be fixed with numbers tweaks; if using Soothing Mist as filler saves more mana than SotC generates, then SotC becomes a useless talent.)

    The only think I find myself using Soothing Mist for is to get Enveloping Mist off slightly faster. But this doesn't actually save a significant amount of time; it just makes the initial hit land faster. And using it for Vivify is a net loss of time. In any case, it doesn't really feel good to start up the Soothing Mist channel just to use the buff for one GCD and immediately cancel it.

    It would be really helpful if Spirit of the Crane either provided some low-level healing or gave us some instant casts. (I think this would be a really great place for Renewing-Mist-based target selection...something like Rising Mist, but tied to the extra Blackout Kicks from Teachings of the Monastery. And it would be super cool if the amount of the heal were based on our Mastery.)


    Yea, I think that's why both playstyles had separate mechanics in MoP. Weaving either SooM or even just hard casting a spell directly is awkward when fistweaving. In MoP I believe there was a buff that stacked to 5 and reduced the mana cost and cast time of surging mist by 100% at 5 stacks. Without mechanics like that, the weaving of our healing spells and melee abilities will always feel clunky at best.

    04/30/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Zephyrs
    6. Using Enveloping Mist while channeling Soothing Mist with TFT active eats a TFT charge.

    This shouldn't happen.


    I think that's because EM now gains a 130% SP instant up-front burst heal via TFT rather than just becoming instant cast. It is actually doing something besides just making it instant now (though I don't think it competes with the mana savings of vivify or extra RM as mentioned above).
    Yea, I think that's why both playstyles had separate mechanics in MoP. Weaving either SooM or even just hard casting a spell directly is awkward when fistweaving. In MoP I believe there was a buff that stacked to 5 and reduced the mana cost and cast time of surging mist by 100% at 5 stacks. Without mechanics like that, the weaving of our healing spells and melee abilities will always feel clunky at best.

    Casting mostly doesn't bother me at all. Vivify's cast time is the same as the GCD, RM is instant, and Essence Font as a channeled, mobile, non-targeted spell feels like MW's version of Fists of Fury. The only spells I have issues with weaving into a melee playstyle on live are Enveloping Mist (which is rarely needed) and Sheilun's Gift (which is going away, thank God).

    But Soothing Mist just doesn't fit. It's fine on live because it's so weak I can just completely ignore it. But on beta it's strong enough that it feels like I should be doing some healing with it - except that in order to do a meaningful amount of healing with it, I'd basically have to stop meleeing altogether.
    04/30/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Zephyrs

    1. I don't like the Vivify/Renewing Mist interaction.

    Our Mastery/RM interaction is awkward enough already - we want to cast RM on someone who really needs the healing, but that often turns out to be the person that RM jumps to right as we hit the button.

    With Vivify using RM to select targets, it becomes even more important to get RM onto people who are going to need more healing, but it also becomes more important not to lose RMs by accidentally overwriting them. The resulting 'choice' ends up being more frustrating than fun.


    This is supposedly fixed in an upcoming build (Source: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762147776?page=5#86 )

    The other problem is that RM-based target selection means Vivify will keep hitting the same secondary targets until they're topped off. I strongly prefer the live version; it may not select ideal targets every time, but at least it usually selects different targets every time.


    Why is that important to you? If you see someone dropping low, target them with Vivify. ReM should be on injured targets, so that portion of Vivify should always be effective. Plus, this also gets the health of said ReM targets up faster, allowing them to jump to other injured targets faster. It's a win-win.

    2. Vivify doesn't do enough healing on secondary targets.

    It seems like the reduction to 45% healing on secondary targets is designed with the worst-case scenario in mind, where we have Renewing Mist on four targets and we're healing a fifth. That gives us a total of 280% of the primary target's heal, vs. 300% on live.


    I agree that the Vivify-ReM heal is weak, but try not to compare it to Live numbers because the iLvL squish, as well as the Spell rescaling, makes that a fruitless comparison.

    But that worst-case scenario can only happen if we take the Focused Thunder talent, and then only for 7.5 seconds out of every 30, right after we cast a FT TFT-empowered series of 3 RMs. Without FT, we top out at 235% for 9 seconds. Most of of the time, we max out at 190%, which is a huge nerf from the live version.


    Comparing to Live numbers again.

    To make matters worse, the person we want to heal directly almost always has RM. So I very frequently find myself only hitting one additional target for 145% total healing (less than half of live), and it's usually not even the one I most want to hit. I feel like a paladin with a crappy bootleg Beacon with a long cooldown and a mind of its own.


    If you target someone with Vivify, and they have ReM active, you do know both the primary Vivify heal and the Vivify-ReM cleave heals them, right? You don't lose throughput on Vivify for healing a ReM target.

    I agree that FT-ReM makes it seem like a weaker version of Beacon of Virtue. But do remember that Virtue only has a max 53% uptime, all tier sets that increase Beacon transfer are going away, Holy Shock is losing its 2x Crit chance, and they can't control who Beacon goes on, same as we can't control who ReM will ultimately end up on.

    (1/2)
    4. Soothing Mist and Spirit of the Crane don't play well together.

    Active Soothing Mist seems nice for monks who want to play Mistweaver as a traditional ranged healer. But monks who take Spirit of the Crane need to fiil essentially every possible GCD with melee abilities to get our talent point's worth, which means we don't really have time to stand around channeling tiny heals. (This isn't something that can be fixed with numbers tweaks; if using Soothing Mist as filler saves more mana than SotC generates, then SotC becomes a useless talent.)


    If players want to be a ranged healer, why would they take Spirit of the Crane? With that talent row having Mana Tea in it now, why would they take SotC if an actually competitive mana talent is available?

    The only think I find myself using Soothing Mist for is to get Enveloping Mist off slightly faster. But this doesn't actually save a significant amount of time; it just makes the initial hit land faster.


    With numbers tuning in this build, Soothing Mist does more healing per tick than Enveloping Mist does. So, as it stands right now, EnM would only be used to buff SooM for single target sustain healing.

    And using it for Vivify is a net loss of time. In any case, it doesn't really feel good to start up the Soothing Mist channel just to use the buff for one GCD and immediately cancel it.


    Soothing Mist starts a 1 second GCD. With Vivify being a 1.5 second GCD, you have to commit to healing that single target using Vivify as a Flash Heal analogue, but Vivify alone wouldn't cover the healing needed. Soothing Mist is a powerful single target channel. Seeing it as a spell just to pump out one spell "instantly" is not how it should be seen.

    It would be really helpful if Spirit of the Crane either provided some low-level healing or gave us some instant casts. (I think this would be a really great place for Renewing-Mist-based target selection...something like Rising Mist, but tied to the extra Blackout Kicks from Teachings of the Monastery. And it would be super cool if the amount of the heal were based on our Mastery.)


    So...Atonement? The Level 45 talent row is all about Mana, and I don't see them throwing a random "and now heals for x" on top of anything in that row.

    5. Rising Mist can't compete with Focused Thunder.

    This is partly because Rising Mist's numbers are low and partly because of the way Focused Thunder interacts with the Renewing Mist/Vivify interaction. I think both of these need to be addressed.


    In dungeons, I agree. The consistency of Vivify-ReM healing up the group, along with increased UT proc rate is hard to ignore. But in raids, Rising Mist is perfect after an Essence Font for a bit more group-wide healing. Not all talents need to be competitive in all content (remember Mistwalk in early Legion being garbage for anything but PvP, where it was overpowered to the point of being removed?).

    6. Using Enveloping Mist while channeling Soothing Mist with TFT active eats a TFT charge.

    This shouldn't happen.


    Why are you casting TFT during SooM if you also need to throw out an EnM? If you're getting TFT ready for Viv/ReM, but you have to save the person you're SooMing, then the instant heal from TFT-EnM would be perfect in that scenario.

    (2/2)
    So, Invoke Chi-Ji changes today, 20% lower overall healing and 50% larger per cast hits. Not sure if this is better or worse.

    On the one hand, essentially three vivify cleaves every gcd
    On the other, it lost 20 sec on duration.
    04/30/2018 01:16 PMPosted by Gargmw
    I agree that the Vivify-ReM heal is weak, but try not to compare it to Live numbers because the iLvL squish, as well as the Spell rescaling, makes that a fruitless comparison.

    I'm not comparing actual numbers. If you'll notice, I'm looking at the total healing relative to the single-target healing component. I'm working under the assumption that the single-target heal, including Mastery, is still intended to be basically comparable to other flash heals. That means the healing on secondary targets is decreasing significantly (again, relative to other healing in BFA.)

    And the only reason I'm talking about numbers is that I'd already noticed, subjectively, that Vivify isn't getting the job done. It's not healing my group up. The player I cast it on gets a nice big heal, but nobody else's bar moves much, so I feel like I'm spamming single-target flash heals (whereas Legion's Vivify feels like a solid multitarget heal).

    04/30/2018 01:16 PMPosted by Gargmw
    If you target someone with Vivify, and they have ReM active, you do know both the primary Vivify heal and the Vivify-ReM cleave heals them, right? You don't lose throughput on Vivify for healing a ReM target.


    I didn't realize that. That explains why it feels so powerful on the primary target. But if anything, it's going to make our multitarget healing situation worse. The final numbers are going to be adjusted based on the fact that we can cast Vivify on a target with Renewing Mist and Essence Font. There's a limit to how big the combined value of Vivify + double Mastery can be allowed to be, especially since Viv is a 1.5s cast time that can be instant if we're channeling Soothing Mist. So if the splash heal can hit the primary target as well, that heavily restricts the amount of healing it can do to secondary targets.

    04/30/2018 01:16 PMPosted by Gargmw
    I agree that FT-ReM makes it seem like a weaker version of Beacon of Virtue. But do remember that Virtue only has a max 53% uptime, all tier sets that increase Beacon transfer are going away, Holy Shock is losing its 2x Crit chance, and they can't control who Beacon goes on, same as we can't control who ReM will ultimately end up on.


    No, I meant that most of the time it just feels like a crappy version of regular Beacon of Light - I have 2 RMs out, but one is on the person I want to heal, so I'm just hitting one other person, like a traditional paladin, but weaker and with less control.

    Right after FT RM spam is the only time Viv feels kind of OK.

    04/30/2018 01:18 PMPosted by Gargmw
    If players want to be a ranged healer, why would they take Spirit of the Crane? With that talent row having Mana Tea in it now, why would they take SotC if an actually competitive mana talent is available?


    They wouldn't. Hence the "but." Soothing Mist is nice for people who want to play their mistweaver as a ranged healer, but it's not really helpful for those of us who want to use the melee talents. We could use something more melee-compatible to fill the niche of 'low-level healing + buffing other spells.'

    04/30/2018 01:18 PMPosted by Gargmw
    So...Atonement? The Level 45 talent row is all about Mana, and I don't see them throwing a random "and now heals for x" on top of anything in that row.


    The problem is that SotC eats a ton of GCDs. So its effect needs to compete not only with the other mana talents, but also with the effects of the other abilities that we'd be using during those globals. In Legion, this was accomplished by making the other talents very weak and making our free globals mostly useless. But in BFA, it's got Mana Tea on its row and a much stronger Soothing Mist competing for free globals, so it's going to need to do more.

    That could be accomplished by making its mana return substantially stronger than the others, but that's hard to balance and would probably lead to the talent being seen as 'mandatory'. I think simply letting it do some low-level healing would be a better option.

    And no, not Atonement. I don't think our melee healing should scale with damage; that's always been a problem for DPS-to-heal mechanics in WoW. I would prefer it to scale with Mastery, since so few of our abilities do.
    04/30/2018 03:49 PMPosted by Ninh
    So, Invoke Chi-Ji changes today, 20% lower overall healing and 50% larger per cast hits. Not sure if this is better or worse.

    On the one hand, essentially three vivify cleaves every gcd
    On the other, it lost 20 sec on duration.


    It's a stronger cooldown in every way now. those extra 20 seconds were pretty much always wasted, so no loss on healing really

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