Mistweaver Monk Feedback

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I'm not comparing actual numbers. If you'll notice, I'm looking at the total healing relative to the single-target healing component. I'm working under the assumption that the single-target heal, including Mastery, is still intended to be basically comparable to other flash heals. That means the healing on secondary targets is decreasing significantly (again, relative to other healing in BFA.)

And the only reason I'm talking about numbers is that I'd already noticed, subjectively, that Vivify isn't getting the job done. It's not healing my group up. The player I cast it on gets a nice big heal, but nobody else's bar moves much, so I feel like I'm spamming single-target flash heals (whereas Legion's Vivify feels like a solid multitarget heal).


Ah, didn't see that you were comparing it to itself. I do agree that primary heal should be brought down so Mastery feels more impactful for having more of it, and Vivify-ReM heal should be brought up for a non-CD based group heal that feels like its doing something.

I didn't realize that. That explains why it feels so powerful on the primary target. But if anything, it's going to make our multitarget healing situation worse. The final numbers are going to be adjusted based on the fact that we can cast Vivify on a target with Renewing Mist and Essence Font. There's a limit to how big the combined value of Vivify + double Mastery can be allowed to be, especially since Viv is a 1.5s cast time that can be instant if we're channeling Soothing Mist. So if the splash heal can hit the primary target as well, that heavily restricts the amount of healing it can do to secondary targets.


I don't think I'm following you right. You're saying there's an arbitrary limit on how high healing can be before its nerfed, even in circumstances where the healing kit is designed to be used in that way, where you Essence Font the group and then followup on low health targets with Vivify where Renewing Mist just happens to be where the (admittedly) low cleave healing will be helping out?

No, I meant that most of the time it just feels like a crappy version of regular Beacon of Light - I have 2 RMs out, but one is on the person I want to heal, so I'm just hitting one other person, like a traditional paladin, but weaker and with less control.

Right after FT RM spam is the only time Viv feels kind of OK.


I agree with FT-ReM being great for small group healing making Vivify feel impactful. But regular Beacon only allows cleaving onto one target, whereas Mistweavers, as part of the base kit (disregarding talents), can cleave onto at most 3 other targets (4 rarely).

Comparing one scenario of one spec to the base design of another isn't a good comparison. What if the HPally has to Holy Shock their beacon target? They don't cleave at all, meanwhile HPriests can press Prayer of Healing and heal 5 people?? It's just silly.

They wouldn't. Hence the "but." Soothing Mist is nice for people who want to play their mistweaver as a ranged healer, but it's not really helpful for those of us who want to use the melee talents. We could use something more melee-compatible to fill the niche of 'low-level healing + buffing other spells.'


Rising Mist fills that nicely. Low level healing, check. Buffs other spells, check. Of course, it competes with FT in dungeons, and Upwelling (formerly Essence Well) in raid fights where you don't EF often. Now if Rising Mist forcibly replaced Soothing Mist, in order to incentivize Spirit of the Crane, that'd be something. But you can just...not cast Soothing Mist, which shouldn't be difficult since not casting Effuse was a thing all of Legion.

(1 / 2)
04/30/2018 04:06 PMPosted by Zephyrs
The problem is that SotC eats a ton of GCDs. So its effect needs to compete not only with the other mana talents, but also with the effects of the other abilities that we'd be using during those globals. In Legion, this was accomplished by making the other talents very weak and making our free globals mostly useless. But in BFA, it's got Mana Tea on its row and a much stronger Soothing Mist competing for free globals, so it's going to need to do more.

That could be accomplished by making its mana return substantially stronger than the others, but that's hard to balance and would probably lead to the talent being seen as 'mandatory'. I think simply letting it do some low-level healing would be a better option.


I agree that SotC is now weaker than Legion SotC because Mana Tea now competes with. Based on the Mana Tea "rotation" (EF -> Mana Tea -> Vivify spam) we use now, you'd need 17 GCDs just for the TotM stacks for SotC to match the mana saved, while also giving up healing from those GCDs. Which, as you said, are more important than they were in Legion.

04/30/2018 04:06 PMPosted by Zephyrs
And no, not Atonement. I don't think our melee healing should scale with damage; that's always been a problem for DPS-to-heal mechanics in WoW. I would prefer it to scale with Mastery, since so few of our abilities do.


That's what you suggested, though.

(I think this would be a really great place for Renewing-Mist-based target selection...something like Rising Mist, but tied to the extra Blackout Kicks from Teachings of the Monastery...)


Atonement rose from the ashes of Mists/Warlords Fistweaving to be better and actually manageable. Damage into healing is called Atonement, especially when you can focus on who to give it to (Atonement buff vs. Renewing Mist, in your example).

(2 / 2)

(Also I'm bad at quote formatting, it seems)
04/30/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Zephyrs
6. Using Enveloping Mist while channeling Soothing Mist with TFT active eats a TFT charge.

This shouldn't happen.


Quick note--the TFT-Enveloping buff has a new instant heal component added on beta, which you still benefit from if you TFT-Enveloping during Soothing Mist. While this loses part of the value of the buff, it's still a reasonable option to provide for when an instant heal seems important.

All that said, one concern with the current setup on beta is that TFT-Renewing might dominate the other uses of TFT too often. Some of the exact bonuses it provides may have to be adjusted once everything else settles.
04/30/2018 07:53 PMPosted by Sigma

All that said, one concern with the current setup on beta is that TFT-Renewing might dominate the other uses of TFT too often. Some of the exact bonuses it provides may have to be adjusted once everything else settles.


Focused feedback time!

Of TFT's 4 current uses, both EnM and EF uses give very little effective HPS and little to no HPM. Using TFT just for the 130% SP heal on EnM feels pretty bad because Gust of Mists already exists and is far less healing than using a Renewing Mist at some other time in a 5 man. Further, the concept of using a 5.2% mana cost large HoT alone, never mind the fact that TFT could be used as a free Vivify instead, means that using TFT on EnM in a raid is an abhorrent concept. TFT-EnM has its niche for being instant when moving or in extreme emergency, but I'm not sure cranking up the heal really makes it that attractive. Perhaps it could lower the mana cost as well to make it see some use in raids?

TFT-EF is just very lame in general. It feels necessary with Upwell just due to the absurdly long channel time of EF and it essentially doubles the value of TFT-EF by saving 2 full GCDs instead of just 1. Outside of Upwell though, this is just a very poor use of TFT that gains zero HPM and isn't really relevant in 5 mans either because even the EnM version is more added HPS than TFT-EF. Personally I'd like to see this effect baked in to Upwell and just taken off of TFT entirely unless something interesting is added to it.

TFT-Vivify is irrelevant in 5 mans and nearly the gold standard for raids simply because it is the only option that adds much HPM yet it adds no HPS. This is uninteresting because it might as well not exist in most of the game while it is overbearing in raids as the default choice only because it doesn't eat extra mana. I would prefer to see TFT-Vivify met halfway, reducing mana cost by half but increasing healing of the Vivify by 50% so it both has some immediate effect without being an easy default in raids.

TFT-ReM, however, is pretty mandatory in 5 mans if we ever want Vivify to be good, which is unfortunate. TFT-ReM has always been kind of awkward to use because while 2/4 of the options save time, TFT-ReM actually takes more time to use effectively as it is the only option that requires an extra cast. It also makes Vivify incredibly swingy depending on what you happened to use your TFT on.

I do not think TFT-ReM is actually very good in raids because 3% mana is still a hefty price to pay to be throwing out a spell without plans to use Vivify very often (which is shaping up to be pretty far down the priority list as far as efficient heals go). Rather than force two casts, I would like to see TFT give bonus duration to the ReM, maybe as much as 10 or 12 seconds so that it can both be an HPM boost but can't have mana sunk into it to juice up all future Vivifies when mana is less of a concern. This would still give stronger Vivifies later on and stabilize ReM count and reinforce that TFT-ReM in a long-term investment.

____

On a related topic, I think Focused Thunder has an oppressive relationship with current TFT-ReM and Vivify in that using TFT for 3 ReM casts in a row gives a nearly 40% increase to Vivify healing over using TFT on other things instead, and this bonus lasts a very long time. Taking Focused Thunder appears to give more TFT flexibility, but with the current build it actually ends up restricting our usage to just ReM due to the power of going all-in on Vivify.

Most of the tendency for Focused Thunder to restrict TFT to ReM comes from the fact that TFT actually does not go on cooldown until we use the 2nd buff which means that it should be used on two spells in a row, which is often not something that happens for EnM in BFA and is bad to use with EF. Meanwhile, using 1 of 2 TFT buffs to get a free Vivify seems silly when we can just buff all future Vivifies.

Without artifact traits or the like to complicate issues with TFT, I would like to see Focused Thunder truly add flexibility by giving TFT 2 charges on a 15 second recharge rather than forcing both buffs to be used at once, which would naturally pull away from using them all on ReM as charges could be spent as needed without having to fully commit to one strategy.
04/30/2018 07:53 PMPosted by Sigma
All that said, one concern with the current setup on beta is that TFT-Renewing might dominate the other uses of TFT too often. Some of the exact bonuses it provides may have to be adjusted once everything else settles.
That's to be expected when our primary single-target heal is also our primary AoE heal that relies on Renewing Mist in order to function, and benefits from procs from Renewing Mist.

Uplift by any other name is still Uplift, and during Uplift's era Renewing Mist had stacks and spread.

ReM is going to be the main use of TFT almost exclusively and numerical tuning is not going to change that. Something needs to mechanically change.
04/30/2018 05:41 PMPosted by Gargmw
I don't think I'm following you right. You're saying there's an arbitrary limit on how high healing can be before its nerfed, even in circumstances where the healing kit is designed to be used in that way, where you Essence Font the group and then followup on low health targets with Vivify where Renewing Mist just happens to be where the (admittedly) low cleave healing will be helping out?

Not arbitrary, but yes, there is a limit to how big a single-target direct heal can realistically be before it starts to cause balance problems.

The total value of an individual multitarget heal or HoT is really only a concern for healing spec balance, and that's much more flexible because healers just have to be balanced on average over time. We can have huge AoE heals as long as they're expensive, spread over a large number of targets, do their healing over time, and/or have cooldowns.

But the size of individual single-target direct heals is a concern for balancing tank damage and PvP damage; the bigger our heals are relative to health pools, the higher and spikier the damage has to be in order for it to be possible for people to die, and spiky tank/PvP damage leads to some really unpleasant gameplay for healers. Avoiding that has been a goal of Blizzard's healing design since Cata.

So if Vivify can 'cleave' the primary target, than that is absolutely going to restrict how big the 'cleave' can be. (Or more accurately, how big the total value of the base heal + cleave can be.) Which wouldn't necessarily be an issue if they could just increase the number of targets to compensate, but that can't happen as long as they're committed to the RM-based targeting mechanic.
Quality of Life change? Can Focused Thunder give TFT two charges on two seperate 30 second cds instead of affecting your next two spells?

Any update when we will be seeing the ReM change of overwriting other ReM? It still really sucks overwriting a ReM cause it just switched to the character you were going to put your ReM on, the computer is quicker then me!

So far testing in beta (this is only at 111) I exclusively us TFT for ReM because the other options are just inferior. Hope this doesn't mean TFT-ReM will get nerfed as this provides us with a much needed AoE option with TFT-Rem+Viv.
04/30/2018 07:53 PMPosted by Sigma


All that said, one concern with the current setup on beta is that TFT-Renewing might dominate the other uses of TFT too often. Some of the exact bonuses it provides may have to be adjusted once everything else settles.


You have so many opportunities right there to bake in artifact spells for other abilities. Just saying. Especially since we lost the Effuse empowerment.

Not saying they were all awesome, but it gives more tools. What comes to mind is Life Cocoon (Mists of Life) and Revival (Blessing of Yu'lon).
04/30/2018 08:39 PMPosted by Ezkanji
That's to be expected when our primary single-target heal is also our primary AoE heal that relies on Renewing Mist in order to function, and benefits from procs from Renewing Mist.

Uplift by any other name is still Uplift, and during Uplift's era Renewing Mist had stacks and spread.


our primary aoe heal would be Essence Font, vivify is the weird spell trying to be a single target spell and a group healing spell at the same time.

one can dream if they bring back renewing mist spread with stacks, but in a world where EF exists, I don't think it's gonna happen

04/30/2018 10:56 PMPosted by Karuzo

Not saying they were all awesome, but it gives more tools. What comes to mind is Life Cocoon (Mists of Life) and Revival (Blessing of Yu'lon).


not the best examples imo, mists of life is unnecessary now that life cocoon has been buffed, and we saw how revival turned out in legion when they slapped a hot on it
04/29/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Karuzo
We need Pool of Mist back, so charges to Renewing Mist, if you continue with the implementation of Vivifuplift. Otherwise we have no control over Vivify other than pressing Renewing Mist on cooldown, that's what made healing interesting in WOD.


I absolutely agree with this. The charges made the ReM - Uplift spam less wonky. Perhaps you could even change TFT to give an extra charge to the ReM stack or something, making it slightly less competitive to the other TFT effects.

As of right now though, I feel like MW is a little weak on the beta. In comparison to my disc priest, I'm really struggling w/ mana because of the lack of single target heals. I would loooooooove if they brought back a surging mist/effuse that was instant cast during SM. It'd prevent us from spamming mana heavy spells like EM and vivify on a single target.
05/01/2018 09:19 AMPosted by Baevix
I would loooooooove if they brought back a surging mist/effuse that was instant cast during SM. It'd prevent us from spamming mana heavy spells like EM and vivify on a single target.


Not arguing here, but wouldn't soothing mist be your answer to this, either the target takes enough damage to justify casting EvM, other targets take enough to justify vivify and if not, why isn't soothing mist good enough?
When we had Surging Mist it was a very expensive chi generator. We also had chi spenders with no mana cost that shared that cost with their generators (some expensive some extremely cheap).

Effuse was our efficient heal in Legion. SooM in Legion was just a fairly meaningless gimmick. SooM in BfA is now the efficient heal again, which is also what it was when we had chi.

You'll also notice SooM heals for a lot more compared to EM than it did when we had Chi. That's possibly to make it more efficient since we lack original mana tea or chi.

I think one issue people are getting at is our mana situation sucks currently. EM costs a LOT (5.2%). It doesn't do nearly as much HPS compared to SM as it did when it was a chi spender. We have no decent baseline mana management mechanic like mana tea (the original). The level 45 talents are lackluster. Our self-only weak innervate clone isn't a bad ability, though it's also not as unique as our original mana management mechanics. Life cycles is just really bad and doesn't make sense. We have no reason to naturally alternative between those two spells at least once every 15 seconds. SotC is OK for people that want to be in melee all day I suppose. We really need to ditch life cycles at the very least and have a better ranged mana management mechanic.

Perhaps if you just want to modify life cycles you could change it to: every tick of soothing mist grants you a stack of life cycles, reducing the mana cost of your next Vivify or EM (maybe even EF?) by 2% stacking up to X times (I think it should stack higher than 20% since it takes longer to build and you could potentially build up a big stack during downtime).

SooM not feeling sufficient as our efficient heal is also likely related to our mastery situation. SooM needs to scale with mastery in some way. Effuse use to have substantial scaling with mastery, SooM currently has none. Either cast a gust of mist every tick at 1/8th the strength or just buff the value of SooM by some % on top of giving gusts to other abilities.

TLDR: change life cycles so we have a better ranged mana management tool, give mastery scaling to SooM (if people are thinking they need another efficient heal back it's probably because we lost all mastery scaling on our efficient heal so it currently doesn't feel sufficient).
As for TFT+RM, it feels clunky having to hard cast 2 RMs, especially if damage is going on and you need to choose whether to cast RM or spam Vivify - and sometimes you need both!

If TFT+RM gave us 3 RMs out (in targets below 100%) in a single cast, I believe that would smooth it a lot.

But all in all, Im not really a fan of bringing back Uplift, especially if we will need TFT to make it work.
05/01/2018 12:47 PMPosted by Zenetta
TLDR: change life cycles so we have a better ranged mana management tool, give mastery scaling to SooM (if people are thinking they need another efficient heal back it's probably because we lost all mastery scaling on our efficient heal so it currently doesn't feel sufficient).


I agree that Lifecycles is fairly meaningless in that row now. As a passive, it traps people into thinking they have to alternate between Vivify and EnM, which is awful and inefficient. In addition to this, one TotM stack for SotC is more mana returned than a Lifecycles-Vivify saves, thanks to its lowered mana cost.

Enveloping Mist right now only serves as a way to boost your healing on the target with its healing increase component (which only affects certain flagged spells and not all healing the player does). Its mana cost is too high to justify using it as a standalone heal; you pretty much have to commit EnM + SooM to the target during heavy sustain damage. And if that damage is in a raid, with other healers "competing" to heal that person up at the same time (in order to make sure they don't die)? Say goodbye to that mana because the other healers' instant heals just ate away at EnM's over time heal effectiveness.

EnM has its place in dungeons, but it feels punishing to use in raids, given the limited mana and tendency to overheal over its duration.
Agree with a lot in this thread.

MW needs a mechanic to manage mana and a mechanic to manage ReM.

I like Zen's idea of using Soothing channeling time as a means to manage mana.

Three charges of ReM worked well in WoD. The problem was it was a talent and thus mandatory. Baseline 2/3 ReM charges would fix Vivify too.
small feedback after this raid testing session.

Revival seems insanely weak compared to the likes of tranq, divine hymn, salvation, etc. These other cooldowns have things helping them, be it their mastery, or flourish in the case of tranquility, something revival is lacking, i think it could easly be solved by a simple numbers buff

gameplay too centered around Essence Font, in my opinion just go all out on making vivify a good group healing spell by buffing its cleave healing.

vivify doesn't need a stronger "main target" healing as it has mastery tied to it, and it can also stack with the cleave.

in a world where we will need good quick single target burst healing (M+), we will stack mastery, so another reason as to why vivify doesnt need a bigger baseline heal on the main target

also we still have the issue where half (that's in legion, it's undoubtedly more in BFA when Rising Mist kicks in) of a MW's healing is gonna be RJW/EF combined, the only change is now you press RSK after every EF with Rising Mist talented.
All I do as MW is RBG so I'm not liking that we can't move while channeling soothing mist. Not sure why the channel is shorter but doesn't really matter much. Hoping that ancient mistweaver arts honor talent is still in and stays the way it is on live.
(sorry for not using a real character but I play on EU)
I wanted to post some feedback of my own after yesterdays raid testing, some of which has already been shared by some other monk players.

  • Revival is incredibly weak, on average it did 9.9k average heal (with 0% overhealing) and on my healthpool for the test of 59k thats just shy of 17% of my health that is really low. It needs a bigger number or some added functionality (I don't think the legion HoT is a good solution, on live it's not noticeable, fun or engaging)
  • As others pointed out, we were all kind of expecting a mastery rework for BFA. In raids, and even more so now with more focus being put on essence font and refreshing jade wind, mastery barely affects our kit and it will be the same as legion where we try and avoid any mastery on our gear. It's only a "dungeon" stat but even then it's not amazing to the point that it's enough of a reason to bring us to a high m+
  • Vivify is not in a good spot right now, I almost didn't feel like pressing it during the raid because the splash heal (so healing on people with Renewing Mist) is really low and barely impactful. It needs a number change (less single target, a lot more splash). It also doesn't feel very good in a dungeon because again, the splash is so weak I was using it mostly as a single target heal + mastery.
  • Since RJW was unchanged, I decided to try the changed chi-ji for the raid, on 3 minute wipes on the blood boss (forgot the name) it was dead last on healing, or almost last with 16% overhealing, and I had only 8% overhealing for all the spells. It still feels weak and like it has no impact, especially for a 3 minute cooldown. I would straight up buff it to a 2 minute cooldown on the current numbers or if you want to keep it on 3min cd increase the SP% further. In antorus chi-ji is only ever a competitor for RJW when you can't be near other people to make use of it
  • Overall the kit feels very disjointed, you have vivify trying to be uplift but falling short and is mostly a single target heal, mastery still only affects a small portion of your spells (and has 0 effect on your talents, unlike all the other healers masteries), soothing mist is better but still not worth pressing in a raid when you're so tied to spirit of the crane, and with vivify in current state I don't see how mana tea can be better. I feel like the mana row of talents needs a look at, I'd go to the "extreme" of making spirit of the crane baseline and part of the class, removing life cycles and introducing 2 new talents.

    If we're "stuck" with this mastery, then at least please have it affect vivify splash targets (at reduced % or something) and essence font (the double gust on the hot doesn't really work).
    And I would also go all out in making vivify a fun spell to cast in raid, perhaps with a supporting talent for more Renewing mists or ReM duration. Right now it's stuck in between legion design and wod design and I feel like you have to pick 1 and go for it

    Not to mention enveloping mist is doing less healing than soothing mist and costs way too much mana. The mist wrap talent probably just needs to be part of the spell (1s more duration and 40% healing) and have it work like wild growth where most of the healing is done upfront and then it lingers on if you wanna make use of the 40% for the other spells. Mist wrap replaced with a talent that actually makes enveloping competitive with chi burst (like if a fight requires a lot of spot healing or bursty single target, which we're garbage at)
    I would agree that a baseline charge system rather then the tft effect would likely be better, would even allow for a strategic banking on charges rather then having to hit on cd.

    05/03/2018 02:38 AMPosted by Eremoo
    Not to mention enveloping mist is doing less healing than soothing mist and costs way too much mana.


    Enveloping actually does slightly more hps than Soothing 41.25% SP compared to 40%. definitely would be nice to get something for single target burst though.
    05/03/2018 10:20 AMPosted by Ninh

    05/03/2018 02:38 AMPosted by Eremoo
    Not to mention enveloping mist is doing less healing than soothing mist and costs way too much mana.


    Enveloping actually does slightly more hps than Soothing 41.25% SP compared to 40%. definitely would be nice to get something for single target burst though.


    45% per tick for Soom actually, not sure how you ended up with that number

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